IBM 4704 Model F 77-key reproduction keyboard review

[Chyros]

Today we look at the extremely anticipated Model F77 repro keyboard by Ellipse! There's so much to say about this keyboard, so it turned into a quite lengthy review. Hope you enjoyed the video!

[Go-Kart]

Great stuff. I hadn't paid much attention to these boards, not being an F nutter myself. I thought, "They're unlikely to meet the standard of original Fs." The fact that they do meet or surpass their vintage counterparts in some regards is bloody impressive.

[Bjerrk]

Nice review!
My only complaint is that the QMK bashing was somewhat unfair. It really isn't anywhere near as hard to use as it is made out to be, and I much prefer it over some platform-specific, proprietary, Alexa-connected GUI nightmare.

But if we want think about this as a mainstream product (which, by the way, it isn't), then a more beginner friendly approach to reprogramming would be necessary. Sure. And the reprogramming documentation isn't good. Sure, I agree. Could've been done better. But Christ, I'm glad it didn't come with some unacceptable bloatware.

[raoulduke-esq]

QMK is the de facto standard for new production, enthusiast-made keyboards - full stop. Joe seems worried that folks will be scared off now, but I think most enthusiasts will either eye-roll about QMK is incomprehensible or will look back with nostalgia about the first time they tried to use it and how much they learned in the process. I’m sure a lot of things related to chemistry would be incomprehensible to me. We all have different skills, aptitudes, and strengths.

Chyros makes it no secret throughout his corpus that he loves using Soarer’s and keyboards with built-in onboard macro recording capabilities. Can’t remember if the recorded macros disappear when powered off like QMK Dynamic Macros, but a preference is a preference. I like QMK/TMK and am accustomed to thinking in that paradigm. If the only option for a badass keyboard was to use Soarer’s, I would be very salty and would begrudgingly fumble my way through it, likely with some curses. The new (to me) Soarer’s paradigm of “go search DT for that version of the tools that work on modern macOS, do some more DT/web searches about how to use the damn thing, monitor some key presses to find out what the keys are called, edit some file to say what I want them to be called with some breaks in between to find out what they’re called again, run a script or drop a file into another file or type something in terminal or whatever it is you have to do to compile, etc.” seems just as painful and eerily similar to the experience Chyros had trying to use QMK and VIA. I would just as soon use what I was familiar with and would endlessly bemoan having to use some inferior (to me), hiiiiiiiideous tool.

It seems as though the major difficulty was with trying to utilize the various pre-compiled hex out there, which makes sense as there are many floating around. When I went to switch my F77 from xwhatsit to QMK (because the configuration software crashed 9/10 times and didn’t work even if it did load 99/100 times) it was indeed a bit of a Scooby Doo drill to figure out what, how, where, and which. I had a lot of tabs open for cross referencing various manuals and instructions and whatnot and there was certainly some reading of threads and searching involved, and I had been using QMK for years. I’m an enthusiast, so this was fun for me. It’s also what prompted me to put an end to my years of lurking and finally create a DT account so I could PM pandrew so all things considered it was a net win.

If you’re not the enthusiast for which this keyboard was originally conceived (and I’d imagine there are some non-dyed-in-the-wool nerds buying these at this point) it would suck. 3 cheers to the community for working so hard to lower the barrier to entry through documentation, and especially for doing the QMK work itself, without which we’d be stuck with xwhatsit which is no longer supported and is even more of a PITA than QMK. At least in QMK the keys are in the right freakin’ order while you’re modifying the layout… The new Fs really have been a team effort from some community all stars. Thanks folks! Still, if you’re looking for a polished, production keyboard with an experience similar to what you’d get from something purchased at Wal Mart, this is not it. Thank goodness. I would hate having to use that Razer or Corsair software…

[Elrick]

Just saw your review.

The real embarrassing thing here, is that my own F77 arrived months ago, but I left it inside it's original shipping box, unopened.

The crippling fear for me is that I think it will fail once I lay my eyes upon it, or maybe I received two house bricks glued to a plywood sheet (has happened on Ebay a few times).

Not saying that will happen, but I buy so much stuff and about 60 percent of stuff I receive is absolute junk ware/failures. Hence, why I am keeping this purchase far away from my deformed nature. This F77 has been the ultimate distraction for many years, and the Mrs is now experiencing this obtuse behaviour.

She can't understand my overall FEAR with this purchase, but this will be all my own fault. Having it unopened means that I won't be disappointed or lose hope. Plus, the paralyzing firmware/software for this keyboard has really stopped me from ever opening this keyboard in the very first place.

If something looks nice, and it sits there always looking nice but can never be used, then why even have it sitting on the desk in the first place?

YES, I am somewhat perverse with my overall purchasing agenda. I am at fault here, it's no one's fault except for that poor person who has sold me this latest F77 keyboard. Because it might never be opened or used for the next few decades.

Almost like leaving a sunken treasure ship down on the sea floor. MY own Grand Kids shall/might be the ones to experience this keyboard, once I slip into the darkness forever.

[Elrick]

YES, the horrid software firmware is what stopped me from ever using/opening this keyboard. Have always hated firmware updating because I have destroyed some keyboards over the years.

The Land Fill has most of my previous failures, which included some South Korean and Chinese made Keyboards.

Hence, if it doesn't come pre-installed then I can never get it to work. I'm essentially a Diesel Mechanic, not some script writer for PC keyboards.

Again, it's my fault forever buying this thing in the first place.

[jmaynard]

Writing documentation for non-techies for doing things is a specific skill, and one quite different from actually doing the work. Embedded systems work is its own set of skills, too. And QMK is a bit of a moving target.

I'm not surprised that Ellipse doesn't have documentation that a non-geek would consider friendly. The obvious answer is to fix that. I don't have my F77 yet, but I'd be willing to take a swing at it.

[Elrick]

I don't have my F77 yet, but I'd be willing to take a swing at it.

Hope you succeed where I would fail. Out of pure disgust, I might even place the package under our fleet of Caterpillar 797Fs as they run over it in a fully laden procession.

That way, it becomes part of our working site - forever. No Land Fill required.

[raoulduke-esq]

I mean, it does come preloaded with a standard layout………..

[Bjerrk]

I don't have my F77 yet, but I'd be willing to take a swing at it.

Hope you succeed where I would fail. Out of pure disgust, I might even place the package under our fleet of Caterpillar 797Fs as they run over it in a fully laden procession.

That way, it becomes part of our working site - forever. No Land Fill required.

You're quite the little drama queen, aren't you?
Keep going, the hyperbole is entertaining.

[an_achronism]

Hope you succeed where I would fail. Out of pure disgust, I might even place the package under our fleet of Caterpillar 797Fs as they run over it in a fully laden procession.

That way, it becomes part of our working site - forever. No Land Fill required.

Look, if you don't want it, you just let me know...

[mikem]

I mean, it does come preloaded with a standard layout………..

Yes it's kind of hard to take people seriously when it comes with a reasonable workable firmware. It would be marginally better if it came with firmware that supported the Via gooey.

[Redmaus]

Spoiler:

QMK is the de facto standard for new production, enthusiast-made keyboards - full stop. Joe seems worried that folks will be scared off now, but I think most enthusiasts will either eye-roll about QMK is incomprehensible or will look back with nostalgia about the first time they tried to use it and how much they learned in the process. I’m sure a lot of things related to chemistry would be incomprehensible to me. We all have different skills, aptitudes, and strengths.

Chyros makes it no secret throughout his corpus that he loves using Soarer’s and keyboards with built-in onboard macro recording capabilities. Can’t remember if the recorded macros disappear when powered off like QMK Dynamic Macros, but a preference is a preference. I like QMK/TMK and am accustomed to thinking in that paradigm. If the only option for a badass keyboard was to use Soarer’s, I would be very salty and would begrudgingly fumble my way through it, likely with some curses. The new (to me) Soarer’s paradigm of “go search DT for that version of the tools that work on modern macOS, do some more DT/web searches about how to use the damn thing, monitor some key presses to find out what the keys are called, edit some file to say what I want them to be called with some breaks in between to find out what they’re called again, run a script or drop a file into another file or type something in terminal or whatever it is you have to do to compile, etc.” seems just as painful and eerily similar to the experience Chyros had trying to use QMK and VIA. I would just as soon use what I was familiar with and would endlessly bemoan having to use some inferior (to me), hiiiiiiiideous tool.

It seems as though the major difficulty was with trying to utilize the various pre-compiled hex out there, which makes sense as there are many floating around. When I went to switch my F77 from xwhatsit to QMK (because the configuration software crashed 9/10 times and didn’t work even if it did load 99/100 times) it was indeed a bit of a Scooby Doo drill to figure out what, how, where, and which. I had a lot of tabs open for cross referencing various manuals and instructions and whatnot and there was certainly some reading of threads and searching involved, and I had been using QMK for years. I’m an enthusiast, so this was fun for me. It’s also what prompted me to put an end to my years of lurking and finally create a DT account so I could PM pandrew so all things considered it was a net win.

If you’re not the enthusiast for which this keyboard was originally conceived (and I’d imagine there are some non-dyed-in-the-wool nerds buying these at this point) it would suck. 3 cheers to the community for working so hard to lower the barrier to entry through documentation, and especially for doing the QMK work itself, without which we’d be stuck with xwhatsit which is no longer supported and is even more of a PITA than QMK. At least in QMK the keys are in the right freakin’ order while you’re modifying the layout… The new Fs really have been a team effort from some community all stars. Thanks folks! Still, if you’re looking for a polished, production keyboard with an experience similar to what you’d get from something purchased at Wal Mart, this is not it. Thank goodness. I would hate having to use that Razer or Corsair software…

If the only option was to use soarer's on the F77's, I would not have placed an order. I don't know if I'm the only person with soarers being super buggy on newer operating systems but in my eyes QMK is better than soarers in every way. Like I get people like to swap layouts and such, but to me once I get a good layout I don't like to change it at all. I just see soarers as deprecated firmware at this point.

[Ellipse]

Again thanks Chyros for the great review! I have replied with some comments in the video's comments section as well as on the F62/F77 project thread.

Outside of the learning curve with QMK itself it is my understanding that Chyros had some trouble in one initial area: actually getting the keyboard into bootloader mode. Chyros noted using a USB hub which doesn't work reliably to load firmware (I've made this mistake a couple times, not realizing the USB cable was plugged into the hub rather than directly into the computer's ports but the manual on the project web site had noted to avoid using hubs). Next, I recall Chyros mentioning that the key combinations to enter bootloader may have not worked.

I hope the video I posted offering step by step documentation, as well as switching to a far easier to use tool to enter the bootloader with one click, will help those in the future to move as swiftly as possible in their firmware reconfigurations.