hellothere vs HHKB

User avatar
hellothere

04 Nov 2022, 03:32

Waay too long. Didn't read:

* I'd really like it if this was a TKL.
* I really don't care for the sound.
* It feels pretty nice, but my Realforce R2 PFU is much better.
* So is my nopre.
* It still is a pretty good keyboard and comes in at #5 of the keyboards I currently own.

===========

Professional Classic. PD-KB401W. I bought open box at about $30 off.

First impression: It's trash.

That has been my review of the HHKB Professional Classic. Have a great day!

===========

(Note that I own a Topre Realforce R2 and a nopre Abko K935p v2. Like the HHKB, they're all weighted at 45g. The Realforce and the Abko are, currently, my two favorite keyboards.)

More seriously, I really did have that as my first impression. It feels an awful lot like my BTC 5100C and that's a dome/slider keyboard that costs about $30 on ebay. I also think the HHKB sounds like a cross between a Topre and Cherry MX blue and I don't think that's a good thing. I know there are silencing rings out there, though. Some may have come with either my Realforce or Abko, so I'll see if I can find those boxes. $220 keyboard and you've gotta spend another $20 to make it shut up ...

This is the first keyboard where I've complained about the sound, though.

I don't really care one way or another about where the Control key is (it's placed where the Caps Lock key usually is), because I've owned sufficient quantities of vintage keyboards that have that placing. I actually don't even care about the Delete key and `~ key placement, because I think I can change those keys functions via a dip switch or with software. Again, I'm used to 1U backspace keys because I've owned sufficient quantities of vintage keyboards. However, I would really like it if the Alt and Command ("diamond") keys were moved even a 1/4U more to the left or right (depending on which side of the spacebar). My Realforce is connected to my Mac and the middle key (Windows key) is my Command key. That just feels more comfortable to me.

When you go in to buy an HHKB, you already know it's a 60%. I have a fairly nice numeric keypad/calculator replacement, so I'm good. I do think it'd be nice if the HHKB was TKL. I still wouldn't mind if the F keys were in a layer, as they currently are, that is, if Topre needed to save a few $ on the HHKB.

One of the things I was wondering was what that little hole between the - and = keys was. It's the Caps Lock LED.

Typing ... well, that's an interesting story.

I don't type like a typist or a coder. Three to four fingers on my left hand and one or two on my right. I can probably do about 60 wpm. I initially just connected the keyboard to my work machine and proceeded to work. I rarely have to write long sentences, though. So, most of the day was just the bad sound grating on me as I type out a couple letters for various macros to run. However, late in the day, I had to do a procedure writeup for someone. That was a couple paragraphs and I did hit that 60 wpm max. The HHKB excelled and felt great doing so. The bad sound was still present, but not as noticeable.

So, how does it feel? I had a few folks tell me how the HHKB was superior in feel to the Realforce because the HHKB has a plastic mounting plate. What do I think? I think I prefer the Realforce. I'll keep playing with the HHKB for a week or so and if I still think it's not any better, I'll sell it. Maybe I'll try a Leopold :D.

BTW, after typing the above wall of text, I'm pretty consistently hitting the Delete key without a problem, so I might not need that dip switch setting.

=========================

So, it's been 11 days. Let's take a look back.

After a few days, I got used to the clack/thock/noise of the keys and/or I turned up the music I usually have going. It was a bit unfair of me to compare the sound to MX blues. Maybe closer to Futaba MA? That might be a good comparison because the click is mostly on the upstroke.

I think the tactility is much higher on the HHKB than the Realforce. This might be because the key travel on the HHKB Professional Classic is 4mm and my Realforce R2 PFU Limited Edition is 3.0mm. I also can set the actuation height on my R2. (The key travel on the other currently manufactured HHKBs is 3.8mm.)

I did try typing tests on both my HHKB and Realforce and got the same score.

The thing that most annoyed me was the lack of a left arrow (as in "move cursor to the left") key. I mentioned I do have a numeric keypad, but I kept forgetting that I had num lock on, so I'd have to delete two mistakes. However, the HHKB has a really tiny bezel on the right, so if you want to put your number pad on the right, you've got more room before you smack your hand against your trackball or mouse. I liked that. I probably could get used to it, but it would obviously take me more than 11 days.

I did get used to the left Command/Diamond/Windows key after a bit. I had earlier mentioned that it would be nice if it was shifted a bit more to the left, but it wasn't bad. I don't use the right Command/Diamond/Windows key at all. I did sometimes hit the Alt/Opt key, thinking that it was the FN key.

So, what do I think about going back to the Realforce after playing with the HHKB? My fingers are being massaged again! It's so lovely! I'll never leave you, Realforce!

Well, I really didn't feel quite like that, but the Realforce does feel a lot better to me. So does my nopre, although I'm now thinking I like my Realforce better than my nopre again, but I've been going back and forth on that for months. I really would like to try the Leopold, as that's supposed to have the highest build quality of the Topres, and the NiZ x87, as that's supposed to feature the highest build quality from NiZ. Fujitsu and NiZ, if you're reading this, send me some keyboards!

My top few keyboards I still own...
#1. Realforce R2 PFU Limited Edition. 45g Topre switches. Tactile.
2. Abko K935p v2. 45g NiZ switches. Tactile.
3. Wang 725-7951. Amber Omron. Clicky.
4. SteelSeries Apex Pro. Hall Effect. Linear.
5. HHKB Professional Classic. 45g Topre switches. Clicky/tactile.

I've owned and sold over 100 different keyboards. If I wasn't listing keyboards, but switches, I'd mention that I'm very fond of brown Alps tactile and Alps plate spring. Those would take #3 and #4, respectively. No, I haven't tried beamsprings. I also have several keyboards that are good, but I don't include in my normal rotation, or need repair and/or tinkering.
Last edited by hellothere on 14 Nov 2022, 19:53, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
jsheradin

04 Nov 2022, 14:41

HHKB Hybrid Type-S was my first real attempt at using an "alternative" layout. Prior to getting one I'd always used either full sized or a TKL at the smallest. First impression was indeed that it's trash. I heard Topre grows on you so I decided to tough it out. I initially tried to rebind everything and make it more similar to my normal layout but it was a bear to use. It sat on a shelf for a while before I blanked it to default settings and really tried to learn the HHKB ways. Caps lock -> Ctrl is now my preferred placement. Backspace above return is now somewhat natural. I quite like the board for regular typing and pack it with me when traveling.

When I actually need to get work done I just flounder on the board for some reason. Spreadsheets in particular throw me way off. Multi-mod combos like Ctrl+Shift+Arrows are just a contorted mess. No default way to bind LGUI to the right side of the board is probably my main annoyance. I use Gnome DE which heavily relies on that specific key, RGUI won't cut it. Moving between desktops on Gnome is CTRL+ALT+Arrow, if you want to take a window with you it's CTRL+ALT+Shift+Arrow, again both a finger twisting mess on the HHKB if you have LGUI bound.

Currently I have an HHKB collecting dust, a full sized Realforce for the office, and a variety of weird boards for home use. I'm glad I gave the HHKB a shot since Topre did grow on me and the caps->ctrl swap really stuck. I've rebound most of my boards to match. Having a bunch of BAE boards means I can't rebind enough of them to use the HHKB backspace placement for it to stay in muscle memory.

I'm hoping someone will make a QMK/ZMK BLE replacement PCB for an HHKB so I can finally rebind my nitpicks. A Pro 2 with Hasu's controller would be a good fit but I just don't think I can live with they battery life it gets. The Pro 2's analog multiplexer chip alone uses more power than an entire Nice!Nano. The board really needs a modern, fully programmable, BLE PCB.

There's chips like the Atmel QMatrix series that seem perfect for driving an HHKB but none that are both large enough to drive a whole board while also able to be run on a LiPo battery without a boost converter. I need to read up more on the QMK capacitive sense implementations and see if I can figure out how/if I can get it working natively on the NRF series ADCs. Safe to say if I'm coding up something that intense it probably won't be happening on an HHKB.

User avatar
Muirium
µ

05 Nov 2022, 12:43

I thought I’d try a “full-size” keyboard like all the kids are using, but it keeps on getting in the way. It’s kinda nice that it’s heavy ‘n stuff, tho tbh I prefer it lighter. Interesting choice to break out the function layer into extra keys like that, if a little costly; seems a lot of work just to skimp on front legends. But I dunno man, my mouse is… where the hell did it go now? Couldn’t they just make this thing in 60%, like my sixties? I like those.

User avatar
hellothere

05 Nov 2022, 19:41

My "mouse" is an X-Keys (or whatever they're named this week) trackball. It's about 70% the length of the HHKB and about 125% the width. Doesn't weigh quite as much as the HHKB, though.

I'm starting to really not enjoy not having dedicated arrow keys. I'm also questioning why Topre decided to not have three or four modifier keys to either side of the spacebar, even if they decided to leave the big Command/Diamond key (1.25u).

User avatar
Muirium
µ

05 Nov 2022, 20:11

Who’s forcing you to use this particular (and definitively supreme) little keyboard again? Your dumptruck is still right there. Or did you trash it prematurely? ;)

I’ve still my Realforce 87U. Hardly use it compared to HHKB though, but I ain’t chucking it out even in the hot glow of all my HHKB love. I like it too, just not nearly as much. Not going to complain it’s a TKL though, it’s just not as squarely aimed at me as Prof. Wada’s tour de force. 87U is merely the greatest tenkeyless of all time, and therefore a worthy member of my collection. It is what is: pretty great but no sixty.

User avatar
hellothere

13 Nov 2022, 23:38

Muirium wrote:
05 Nov 2022, 20:11
Who’s forcing you to use this particular (and definitively supreme) little keyboard again? Your dumptruck is still right there. Or did you trash it prematurely? ;)
Nobody's forcing me to do anything ... yet. It's not like Cherry's going to come out to Arizona and force me to use MX browns or something, although I assume that's possible. I had just heard from a good deal of folks that have more experience in the hobby, including you, saying that the HHKB was significantly better than other Topre keyboards. I had the cash and the KB was the right price, so I went for it.

I have a dumptruck? Cool! I didn't know that! Where is it, exactly? I wouldn't mind something bigger and louder to intimidate my neighbors, who bought a new and very noisy diesel pickup :D.

I did give the HHKB a week of testing and I'll eventually add some comments here.

User avatar
Muirium
µ

14 Nov 2022, 11:47

hellothere wrote:
13 Nov 2022, 23:38
I had just heard from a good deal of folks that have more experience in the hobby, including you, saying that the HHKB was significantly better than other Topre keyboards. I had the cash and the KB was the right price, so I went for it.
It's easy in this day and age of 'internet opinions' to misinterpret what people are saying, to put it very mildly. ;)

Just to clarify: I don't think I've ever said the HHKB's feeling is significantly better than a Realforce. I myself like it quite a bit more, but I also really like the steel plate Realforce feel; they're just different from each other, and I can make the choice on a whim as I have both of them right here.

What makes the HHKB killer, for me, is the 60% form factor. If Realforces were plastic topped and HHKBs where steel, I'd still use the HHKB more, because form factor wins in my priorities.

Anyway, I won't criticise you for grabbing a great keyboard at the right price. Topres are always in demand, so very easily resold. Good to hear you're giving it a proper trial. I'd be hard-pressed to stay off 60% for a week with any one full-size keyboard, I'll freely admit!

User avatar
wobbled

14 Nov 2022, 19:45

Not to worry, I’m here to take the HHKB off your hands. You’re obviously wanting to get rid of it as soon as possible and I don’t blame you one bit so I’ll accept it free of charge!

User avatar
Muirium
µ

14 Nov 2022, 21:31


User avatar
hellothere

15 Nov 2022, 18:01

I posted some "final" comments to my original review.

User avatar
hellothere

15 Nov 2022, 18:13

wobbled wrote:
14 Nov 2022, 19:45
Not to worry, I’m here to take the HHKB off your hands. You’re obviously wanting to get rid of it as soon as possible and I don’t blame you one bit so I’ll accept it free of charge!
No problem. I'll give it to you for free. $2500 shipping and handling. After converting, that's £5284,01. PM me and we can exchange PayPal info!

/me: Serious
I really wouldn't have a problem selling, if someone sent me $180 and shipping from the US. If not, I might play with it for a little while longer and see if it forms a better impression. It's unlikely that I'd put it back in my normal rotation.
/me

User avatar
Elrick

06 Dec 2022, 06:59

hellothere wrote:
04 Nov 2022, 03:32

* I'd really like it if this was a TKL.
If it's still made in all ABS Plastic casing, it's still an expensive junkware keyboard. Using the most cheap kind of plastic on an expensive price tag, why? They should be selling that keyboard as a $99 USD special instead, due to the inferior/cheapo plastics used.

The casing will age and turn YELLOW whilst the keys remain White, showing the bad choices made at that factory. Yet the addicts will all holler insults at my facts being presented here. How odd that the inept suddenly try to acquire any abnormal sense of reality, when it comes to their choice here.
hellothere wrote:
04 Nov 2022, 03:32
* I really don't care for the sound.
Agreed, sounds like cheap JUNK. Yet so expensive, almost a complete oxymoron for fools.
hellothere wrote:
04 Nov 2022, 03:32
* It feels pretty nice, but my Realforce R2 PFU is much better.
REALFORCE is the ONLY Topre KING, without any real competition. With a selection of Full Size and TKL layouts, that normal people still love to use.

Funny how a tiny minority get wet using a stupid layout by HHKB and try to force others, into their fantasy-virtual world of delusion.

Good post relating to that awful HHKB which I bought for my teenager and still find it ridiculous without any other comparisons, in the keyboard world, than much copied Cherry-MX junkware models, being sold to the inept.

User avatar
Elrick

06 Dec 2022, 07:16

Muirium wrote:
14 Nov 2022, 11:47
What makes the HHKB killer, for me, is the 60% form factor.
Grossly inefficient on every level. Requiring to press several keys at the same time, to initiate one task, deludes you into a fantasy world.

The most efficient keyboard is the one that actuates its task, with ONE key press. Simple Logic being applied onto those living in some weird place, not based in Reality.

User avatar
Muirium
µ

06 Dec 2022, 09:49

The irony: you had to press two keys to spell “ONE” there. Unless you toggle Caps Lock for all capitalisation like a real pro. ;)

Chording is the sign someone knows what they’re doing with a keyboard. Why waste time grabbing the mouse and chucking it around, overshooting, correcting and finally hitting save when Command S will do? Heavens, modifiers: what will they think of next! :lol:

Using a sixty is just like that for me. Bet I can move around in text and edit faster than you can on any keyboard, because I do it so much and don’t even need to move my hands off the alpha block. It’s certainly an advantage and a preference for me. But no one’s forcing you to use them, too. I won’t even say that battleships should be banned. ;)

User avatar
wobbled

07 Dec 2022, 01:00

Elrick wrote:
06 Dec 2022, 06:59

The casing will age and turn YELLOW whilst the keys remain White, showing the bad choices made at that factory. Yet the addicts will all holler insults at my facts being presented here. How odd that the inept suddenly try to acquire any abnormal sense of reality, when it comes to their choice here.
Addict here, and I won't be throwing any insults your way :lol:
Many of us love the way HHKBs look when they are yellowed including myself. (un?)fortunately, PFU now use AES instead of ABS which won't yellow anywhere near as fast, if at all.
For reference - my sunburned baby.
IMG_2147.jpg
IMG_2147.jpg (1017.37 KiB) Viewed 8100 times
I do have an even older Pro 1 from 2003 which is still as white as my hybrid (new old stock) he gets a top up of UV protection spray every 6 months as I want to preserve that like-new look for that board.

Post Reply

Return to “Reviews”