KBP V60 Matias Click and Matias Quiet Click Keyboards

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czarek

13 Nov 2015, 18:14

seebart wrote:
czarek wrote:
Muirium wrote: As for NMBs, they're quite remarkable. I love my Amiga keyboards! Just those bloody ISO enters and umlauts on them...
Finally we can agree on something! ;)

http://deskthority.net/photos-f62/cherr ... =commodore
That's not Amiga - those things (Commodore PCs) arguably killed the Amiga.
Amiga keyboards have enough modifiers in perfect layout (no need to even remap anything) on each side of the space bar. It's got Ctrl key in the right place. Only problem is ISO enter. To my knowledge there is sadly no NMB keyboard with normal horizontal ANSI enter :(
Also, that's vintage blacks, not space invaders :)

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seebart
Offtopicthority Instigator

13 Nov 2015, 18:24

Scroll down the page. ;) If they "arguably killed the Amiga" is relative. Got any facts on that?

http://deskthority.net/photos-f62/cherr ... ml#p222014
Last edited by seebart on 13 Nov 2015, 18:36, edited 1 time in total.

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Muirium
µ

13 Nov 2015, 18:31

You know to link individual posts, right Seebart? The little file icon beside the datestamp…

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seebart
Offtopicthority Instigator

13 Nov 2015, 18:35

Come on give me a break, I want a learners permit issued. :mrgreen: How about a "seebarting" button in the editor?
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Muirium
µ

13 Nov 2015, 18:59

Permit? We can do better for a Seebart. Here's your plate!

Image

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seebart
Offtopicthority Instigator

13 Nov 2015, 19:01

Uhh sounds great. :mrgreen: I actually owned a Lexus when I lived in the states, but never had a plate that cool.
I just got a Head & Shoulders last night. I've never felt so dirty and clean at the same time.

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czarek

17 Nov 2015, 19:22

A little update on this keyboard after couple days of using it. And by using I really mean it, 12-14 hours writing and navigating through code using vim and tmux. For a reference, the keyboard I used most as a daily driver (55g realforce) has all of the alphanumeric keys very shiny after over a year.
So how does this one fare so far? Well couple keys are becoming shiny already (they lasted longer than Code keyboard though) and labels turned out to be pretty similar to standard Filco ones - they become dirty and I have feeling they will fade away in couple months max (Tai Hao makes double shots so no worries here).
But how are the switches? Well my hands got used to them, I sometimes get a bit of pain in my right hand middle finger, but nothing major, changing position fixes it (nothing fixes it when I'm using 55g Topre). What does irritate me (and I like it the other times) is the feel that is different depending where you hit the key. On top they're very sharp, maybe even too sharp, like very weird, super heavy broken buckling, on bottom however they're very smooth with very little tactility, very similar to Topre.
Of course I gave a try to my other favourite keyboards after my fingers got accomodated to this Matias.
So now that's how those keyboards feel:
Model M - surprisingly scratchy and not that tactile. I absolutely love the gentle tactility and clicks. But it's scratchy.
Model F XT - even scratchier, reverberating springs that always annoyed me in Model F annoy me even more now.
Filco with Cherry MX Blue - feels almost linear, but surprisingly smooth and very subtle click and tactility, I really like it.
Code with Gateron Blue - less smooth than Filco but very springy and tactile, hard debounce clack is very irritating.
RealForce (55g) - feels smooth like heaven. Slightly less sharp tactility, but it feels almost just as heavy (did my just over a year old rubber stiffen with age already?). I like this keyboard again!
Focus 2002 with Alps White - feels pretty smooth (when hit in middle of keycap, otherwise heavy and not nice) with nice gentle click and tactility, even nicer than Cherry MX Blue, with definitely more character. However this keyboard feels a bit lazy compared to Matias, keys seem to debounce a bit slower than on a new keyboard. I think it's just the age (it's probably over 20 years old).
GON NerD V60 with vintage blacks - feels just as smooth as matias, but heavier and kinda mushy, it's mounted in a Poker II case with couple fins removed to fit the battery for bluetooth module. That might be a reason of it not feeling sturdy (V60 is fitted in Tex alu case).
So there you have it. I still enjoy using it so far. I like the layout, I mostly like the feel, but I think it could be a hair lighter and more consistent regardless of where I hit the key.

Also I need to go to my basement and try couple more keyboards to see how they feel now. I also promised couple of guys here I'll make photos of my Amiga 2000 and Amiga 500 keyboards (one is white, the other one is yellow NMB space invaders).

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Muirium
µ

17 Nov 2015, 20:11

Interesting perspective.

If you're wearing down PBT that hard, I wouldn't even bother with ABS if I were you. Not even doubleshots. Could even find yourself wearing through the background colour entirely and exposing the legends as a blob! Dyesubs are the only thing with enough wear tolerance for the long haul. And even then! Quite how your fingers put up with all that either…

We're agreed on Model M. It has its flaws. It's junk compared to Model F. But that's where we differ, of course. You've get to find a good one. I've yet to find a bad one. Luck, eh?

Compared to the big boys, it's hard to imagine how MX blue feels like anything other than frivolous. That irritating little click! That janky tactile latch-bump! I don't like Matias clicks or tactiles either (yet to try the linears) but neither of them are quite so bad as to be down there with MX blue. You've got white Alps right, though.

Anyway, these things are of course quite subjective. I'm sure your fingers are telling you the truth, just as much as mine!

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czarek

17 Nov 2015, 20:28

Muirium wrote: Interesting perspective.

If you're wearing down PBT that hard, I wouldn't even bother with ABS if I were you. Not even doubleshots. Could even find yourself wearing through the background colour entirely and exposing the legends as a blob! Dyesubs are the only thing with enough wear tolerance for the long haul. And even then! Quite how your fingers put up with all that either…
See that's why I don't care for PBT that much, it goes smooth anyways, just takes few more months and to be honest with some switches I do prefer ABS (MX Blues with nice Cherry profile double shots are very fun switch in fact). I don't care for legends either. Prefer blanks, but I do appreciate some nicely designed legends (I like those on Model M, Filco and recently Code, always disliked RealForce). That said, I enjoy RealForce PBT keycaps, and obviously Model M keycaps. I have couple OEM sets for Cherry keyboards and I like them all apart from standard keycaps that came on Poker II (thick PBT with ugly pad printed legends, awful). Can't say that about almost all ABS keycaps I encountered. I don't mind standard Filco, Code (with clicky switches, I tried them with 62G vintage blacks and didn't like them much), or those KBP caps.
Muirium wrote: We're agreed on Model M. It has its flaws. It's junk compared to Model F. But that's where we differ, of course. You've get to find a good one. I've yet to find a bad one. Luck, eh?
I agree that we disagree on Model F, and it's not just the ones I had and have. I even dislike those that people put on youtube. Call it personal preference. Even in recent review from Chyros (which I enjoyed), his typing on Model M (as he described just an average Model M) was music to my ears, while Model F (I've got the same model btw) almost hurts with the high pitched ping. Oh maybe that's because I play double bass and bass guitars for more than half of my life, I don't know :D
Muirium wrote: Compared to the big boys, it's hard to imagine how MX blue feels like anything other than frivolous. That irritating little click! That janky tactile latch-bump! I don't like Matias clicks or tactiles either (yet to try the linears) but neither of them are quite so bad as to be down there with MX blue. You've got white Alps right, though.

Anyway, these things are of course quite subjective. I'm sure your fingers are telling you the truth, just as much as mine!
Strangely I don't mind good MX Blues. Recent ones which came standard on my Code keyboard were total garbage but the ones I have on my metallic blue Filco (bought it maybe 3 years ago) are very fun. I quite like them with ABS keycaps, as well as with thin PBT. I dislike them with Cherry original thick PBT keycaps though.
In fact previous generation blues and vintage blacks are the only Cherry switches I tolerate (and sometimes enjoy).

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Muirium
µ

17 Nov 2015, 20:38

The Model F racket is definitely a love/hate affair. I find it like an epic wave when I'm really typing something up. It has the effect of amplifying what I'm doing. So I head for my IBMs for first draft work — just write that shit down! — and prefer Topre for the stop and go of editing.

If buckling spring was silent, I'd probably still like it. That sharp tactility is just my thing. I love it in Montereys too, despite the fact they sound like hell compared to Model F. To my ears, anyway!

And yet I like Topre just as much. Totally different tactile sensation with them. Much more like beamspring. But I relish a difference, when it's between two great things, instead of just good vs. bad.

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czarek

17 Nov 2015, 21:06

Muirium wrote: And yet I like Topre just as much. Totally different tactile sensation with them. Much more like beamspring. But I relish a difference, when it's between two great things, instead of just good vs. bad.
I love Topre too! It has its issues though. Rubber is its blessing and a curse at the same time. It feels great when it's new but overtime (and my very heavy use) it changes its feel. My HHKB became almost linear after couple years, while RF 55g became so stiff I can barely type on it right now (it's as heavy if not heavier than 70g Matias, and clearly heavier than Model M). As for 45g RF I only had one briefly (EK edition) and couldn't stand how inconsistent it was. Some keys were ok, some were ultra light, some were on a heavy side. I ended up returning this keyboard. I noticed that inconsistency is very often a killer for me. That's one more reason I don't use my F122 - almost every key clicks differently (sound and actuation point wise). BTW you can see comparison of some of my M/Fs in this video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LZnTkLpt-TQ
I experimented with removing rubber sheet from SSK to make it feel and sound more similar to model F.
I no longer have this one though. As I said before this SSK was NIB when I got it but it had number of issues and I didn't like the feel of it - was very uneven and not smooth at all. Not sure what was the cause, but not my problem any more.
Last edited by czarek on 17 Nov 2015, 21:17, edited 1 time in total.

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Muirium
µ

17 Nov 2015, 21:15

Hmm… I'd consider that very heavy use of yours like a damaging laser that's messing up these boards when left focussed on them! My own use is much lighter — just a few hours of hard typing at a time, then it's another day and I often swap the keyboard. Perhaps you need a bigger collection and more keyboard cycling!

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czarek

17 Nov 2015, 21:35

Muirium wrote: Hmm… I'd consider that very heavy use of yours like a damaging laser that's messing up these boards when left focussed on them! My own use is much lighter — just a few hours of hard typing at a time, then it's another day and I often swap the keyboard. Perhaps you need a bigger collection and more keyboard cycling!
Mate, I own couple dozens keyboards in my collection + a micro factory that makes custom keyboards (ErgoDoxes, 60%, anything customers ask for really), so that is not a problem.
The problem is because of that, I'm extremely picky and when I like something I use it a lot :D That's why my Topres get shiny and feel a bit off. That could also be a reason why I appreciate things I can easily buy and replace (Cherry/Gateron or fancy stuff like Matias or Topre).
I do rotate my keyboards, maybe not as often as you do, but still. For last year I mostly used my Realforce, but every now and then when I needed a change I used Model M for couple days. When things got messy and my hands started to hurt I always had my trusty ErgoDox (Vintage Blacks, MX Blue springs, round 5 keycaps) which got some significant use too.
It's just that recently I couldn't use my Realforce anymore due to pain in my fingers I moaned about a while ago I started to look for alternatives and I found out that Filco with MX Blue worked nicely for me, although it missed a bit in tactility + it's fullsize which is annoying. That's why I got Code which turned out to have garbage MX Blues and got it modded first with 62g Korean Vintage Blacks, then later with Gateron Blues (more tactile and a bit heavier than Cherries), which I used as my daily driver until I got this Matias V60 (well I used GON NerD briefly to acoomodate to new layout).
So as I said, for now I'm happy with those switches but I can see their faults (inconsistency depeding on point where you press the keycap bothers me mostly) now and it's just matter of time until they start to drive me crazy :D
Hopefully I'll have some blue Alps by then so I can put them on that board :D

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Muirium
µ

17 Nov 2015, 21:41

Aye, I remember your ErgoDox factory. I should have used sarcastic brownfont about the need a bigger collection bit! Any regular on DT truly doesn't need an excuse to gather more keyboards. Let alone the few of us who build them at scale themselves!

I fear for those Alps. If I had to name a switch that doesn't take a beating well, Alps is it. For all my complaining about MX, they do have some important strengths. If you're beating those guys up, Alps doesn't stand a chance!

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Hypersphere

23 Dec 2015, 00:05

@Muirium: Is there trusted documentation somewhere that lists the durability ratings of different types of Alps switches and Alps clones with respect to the number of keypresses or actuations?

Here and there I have seen figures for "Alps" (without specifying the specific type) as 10 million to 20 million keypresses compared to "Cherry" (not sure of which variety) at 50 million. However, I think that Matias switches (not sure if Click, Quiet, or Linear) are rated at 50 million.

I suppose the longevity of a switch is also dependent upon conditions. For example, I've heard that "Alps" switches are more vulnerable to dirt than some other types of switches.

Has anyone ever rated the longevity of IBM Model F or Model M buckling spring switches? Given that we have many examples of these keyboards still working after several decades, I suppose the rating must be at least as good as Cherry.

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chzel

23 Dec 2015, 00:30

Hyper, the way I see it there are two different ways for a switch to "go bad". The mechanical failure (too much contact bounce, idk, broken contacts, or whatever may happen) and the loss of "feel". I think buckling springs retain the feel because the switch is large and with nice clearances. A little dust won't make it gritty, and the tactility and snap comes from the spring which should last forever unless rusted...Then you have membrane failure, which I assume is more common in BS boards.
I guess Topres could last for decades before the silicone cracks and crumbles, and up to that point they will operate fine. They will probably feel like poking an octopus, but still work reliably.

courtesi

23 Dec 2015, 16:49

Has anyone had a chance yet to try the Matias Quiet Linears?

Here is what I know just reading off forums:
1. Very light.
2. Very short throw.
3. It's supposed to "click" at the bottom of key travel; however no one has stated whether it is loud, unnoticeable, etc.
4. Even more silent than the already quiet Matias Quiet-Click switch.

I've heard more negative than positive - but perhaps there are a subset of folks out there who would appreciate the above attributes?

Personally for me I find Zenith Green Alps Linears / Cherry MX Blacks too stiff for prolonged use (More than say 5 hours), MX Reds too light. I also had a chance to try some Ducky XM Blacks which were 40g(?) linears and were too light and much, much too noisy. I'm curious if having a much more abrupt throw may make lighter linear switches more usable.

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Hypersphere

23 Dec 2015, 17:57

@courtesi: I have tried a V60 with Matias Quiet Linear switches.

It is quite light. It is rated by Matias as having an actuation and bottoming out force of 35 cN ("grams"). By comparison, Cherry mx red linears are rated at 45 cN for the actuation force and they bottom out at around 60 cN. However, in actual typing, I find that I have better control with the Matias linears than I do with mx reds.

The throw or displacement is 3.5 mm, which is the same as all the Matias switches. This compares to 4.0 mm for mx switches. The 3.5 mm does not seem unduly short to me, although the linears and Quiet Clicks seem to me a bit shorter than the Matias Clicks because of the damping.

I do not notice any click anywhere in the key travel with the Matias linears. However, with the stock ABS caps and the inherent wobble in Matias switches, I notice quite a bit of rattle from the keycaps during typing.

To me, the Quiet Click switches seem quieter than the linears, but I am comparing apples and oranges because my Quiet Click and Click keyboards have PBT keycaps (harvested from IBM 5140 boards).

i am not a fan of linear switches, but i have a slight preference for the Matias linears over mx reds.

Comparing the different Matias switches in the V60 boards, my ranking is:

Click > Quiet Click >>> Linear

I like the pronounced tactile and auditory feedback afforded by the Click switches. The tactility is still definitely there in the Quiet Clicks, but it is not as reinforced by an audible click and it seems somewhat attenuated by the damping (although the damping is welcome when I do not wish to disturb others with my typing). The Linear switches take away the tactile and auditory feedback for which the Matias Click switches are well known.

courtesi

23 Dec 2015, 20:55

Thank you Hypersphere for the very informative reply!

I put in an order for a V80MTS w/ Quiet Linears. I was actually waiting for the V60MTS variant with front printing but I thought what the heck. Unless it is a terrible experience I will type on it for a full week and report back in the Review forum; otherwise I will report back sooner. It is odd there is so much wobble given how tight the keycaps are on!

FYI: I tried the Matias Quiet-Click switches right when they were first available and although I liked them - I found them both a bit stiff for long term use but also my typing speed suffered as a result. I don't know if there is anyone else like me - but when I have work to get done nothing frustrates me more than a keyswitch that is slowing me down.

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Hypersphere

24 Dec 2015, 01:19

Among the Matias variants, I find that the Click switches slow me down the least. I think the rubber dampers in the Quiet Click and Quiet Linear switches slow me down somewhat.

Considering all of the many switches I have tried, the ones that enable me to type the fastest with the fewest errors are IBM Model F, IBM Model M, and Topre 45g. However, Matias Clicks are not far behind.

courtesi

24 Dec 2015, 03:14

I tried the Matias Click switches - and I'm ... undecided. On one hand they are brand new, easy to find, and supposedly made of higher quality materials that allow it up to 50 million key presses. On the down side - and a big one for me - they don't sound as nice as vintage Alps. It's not the volume but just the way they sound. Yes, they're much better than MX Blues; I just wish Matias tried cloning the old style.

I type the fastest on Cherry MX Browns; however in my current predicament I'm seeking something extremely silent and light enough to be used for 10+ hours a day. Now you've got me worried about the wobble ... I'll just have to wait and see.

Needless to say, if the Linears are significantly more silent than Buckling Springs I should be good. It only took my coworkers about 30 secs to lynch my Unicomp.

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Hypersphere

24 Dec 2015, 03:39

The choice of keycaps makes a big difference in the sound and feel of the V60MTS boards. I like the dye-sub PBT Alps-mount caps from the IBM 5140 "portable" computer keyboard.

I am planning to build a custom 60% with Alps or Matias switches, but I remain undecided about various vintage Alps vs Matias. The quality of the Alps experience is highly dependent on the particular keyboard and how clean the switches are. Complicated white Alps have been the most consistent for me, but to use them in a custom board, I would have to desolder them from vintage stock. In contrast, Matias switches are rather good themselves, and they are readily available brand new at low cost.

Although I enjoy my V60MTS-C and V60MTS-Q, my main board these days is a HHKB Pro 2 fitted with my Silencing Rings. Despite the fact that I rotate through a variety of boards from time to time, I always seem to come back to the HHKB.

courtesi

24 Dec 2015, 04:58

Hypersphere wrote: The choice of keycaps makes a big difference in the sound and feel of the V60MTS boards. I like the dye-sub PBT Alps-mount caps from the IBM 5140 "portable" computer keyboard.
If I like the board I'll probably wait it out for Matias thick dyesub PBT's. From what little I can find online there doesn't seem to be much of a difference between the stock and TaoHao's ABS. Because the keycaps sit so tight on the stems I only want to replace them once as to not risk pulling switches.

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Hypersphere

24 Dec 2015, 14:50

Part of the adventure of Alps-mount switches is sourcing keycaps, including doing research on which vintage boards have dye-sub PBT, double-shot ABS, or pad-printed ABS. It gets really interesting when you find an apparent anomaly or controversial instance, such as a keyboard purported to have double-shot PBT caps -- you almost don't want to do the salt-water bouancy or acetone tests in order to maintain the mystery.

courtesi

30 Dec 2015, 18:41

I just received the V80MTS QL; I'm going to give it a week or two and write a full review in a separate thread but so far it's a winner!

A few initial observations of the Quiet-Linear switch:

1.) The 35g isn't throwing me off as much as I thought it would! A while back I was able to reach 140wpm on Cherry Browns but absolutely struggled getting past 110wpm with Cherry Reds; on this I've been consistently in the 120-130wpm range which is good. It's possible that with the perceived decreased travel it allows me to transition from key to key faster.

2.) I must have the lightest hands in the mechanical keyboard community because resting them on the keyboard hasn't triggered any accidental actuations. This makes me curious if I'm a candidate for Gateron Clears! :D

3.) The included cable is very thick; almost too thick! At the same time it pops out of the channel fairly easily. It feels a bit braided so I might need to try to find a more rubbery version down the road.

4.) Noise level seems to be acceptable but won't know for sure until I get it in an office environment. It's not as quiet as I thought it would be. The culprit are probably the keycaps which I will eject immediately once Matias thick Dyesubs are available.

So ... review is coming ... if my coworkers don't complain I will definitely put in an order for a V60MTS front print w/ Linears as well!

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Hypersphere

31 Dec 2015, 17:19

Recently, I have been using the KC60, which has the best programmability of any keyboard I have used thus far. I've also been comparing this keyboard with the Pok3r. Each has mx browns. The typing experience on these is sort of okay, but certainly not great. However, between the two, I prefer typing on the KC60. I am not sure why this is the case, but there are two things that stand out. First, my Pok3r has Leopold PBT keycaps that do not have bottoming out noise, whereas the KC60 has Ducky PBT keycaps that have bottoming out noise. I think that I might be relying on the bottoming out noise for auditory feedback. Second, the Pok3r has Cherry stabilizers. Although they seem to have improved these stabilizers in the Pok3r, they are still mushier than the Costar-type stabilizers in the KC60.

I pulled out my V60 Matias-switch boards again to do a quick comparison with the KC60 and Pok3r as well as a comparison of Matias Click, Quiet, and Linear Quiet.

Although I am not a fan of linear switches, I like typing on the V60MTS Linear Quiet better than typing on the KC60 or Pok3r with mx browns. Next best is the V60 with Matias Quiet switches, and best of all is the V60 with Matias Click switches. I think I type faster and more accurately on the Matias Clicks because of the pronounced dual feedback, both aural and tactile. This recent comparison agrees with my earlier assessments.

The Pok3r comes standard with a cast aluminum case, and I have put the KC60 into a TEX CNC aluminum case. Currently, the V60MTS keyboards have only a single mounting hole that aligns with the mounts in aftermarket aluminum cases, although people have found ways to use 3 screws. I heard from KBP that they intend to introduce revised V60MTS keyboards quite soon that will have 3 or possibly 4 holes for mounting in aftermarket aluminum cases. The typing experience on the V60MTS keyboards is already quite good, but I think the addition of aluminum cases would make it even better.

courtesi

01 Jan 2016, 18:36

Well ... I might do a short review this week as I'm sending my V80MTS back ...

A few keys have started to randomly chatter (!?!); along with that the wobble of the keycaps is really starting to piss me off. Had I purchased the Matias Clicky or Fukka the noise would probably hide it a bit but because of the dampened nature of the switch it makes it sound and feel like a cheap toy made by Fisher Price.

Also the cable continues to easily falls out of the channel holder whenever given the chance. My preference is for a hardwired cable; the only mass produced board to do the channel method right in my experience is KUL. All the Coolermasters / WASD boards I've owned had this issue - only in their case the cable wasn't thick enough - in the V80MTS it's too thick!

So at this point I am going to hold off on purchasing a V60MTS until Matias Dyesubs are ready and reviewed.

In the mean time I will keep an eye out for any future Hasu 60% Alps GB that take place.

Do you happen to know if the vintage Cream/White damped Alps wobble less? I know it's hard to compare because those boards usually had PBT keycaps. I'm curious if I can achieve the same result by buying those and removing the tactile leaf.

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Hypersphere

01 Jan 2016, 19:41

@courtesi: Sorry you have had problems with your V80MTS Linear. I am fairly pleased with my V60MTS boards. I have seen complaints from others about the wobble in MTS switches, but this wobble does not bother me.

I am typing this on my silenced and lubed RF87UB55. There is no wobble at all in these keys, and I have beautiful Topre dye-sub PBT caps. Although I like the Matias Click switches for fun and a change of pace, I keep coming back to my Topre-switch keyboards (RF87U and HHKB Pro 2) for most of my serious work.

My other favorite switch is the IBM capacitive buckling spring (Model F), but the only board with these switches in my collection that is fully operational is an XT, whose layout is not to my liking. I am looking forward to refurbishing/converting other Model F boards in my collection to an ANSI layout and USB connectivity. When this is done, I anticipate using my Model F boards much more regularly.

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lal

15 Feb 2016, 14:26

Does anybody know if these caps will fit the V60MTS-C?:
https://mechanicalkeyboards.com/shop/in ... ail&p=1362

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XMIT
[ XMIT ]

15 Feb 2016, 15:06

Yeah, they should fit fine. They do fit the V80-MTS.

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