F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards

Ellipse

16 Apr 2021, 21:05

Very professional design darkcruix! Will make switching key sets much quicker I'd imagine.

Wazrach the fix for key binding was noted a few months back on this thread and is now in the manual on the project web site. The fix is successful 100% of the time to stop key binding. No tools or materials are needed for the fix.

I have also included a video in the manual to show an easy way to open and close the inner assembly with channel lock pliers. Takes only a few minutes to open and close. For anyone reading this thread, no other tools are needed besides 2 pairs of pliers, one of which should be channel lock.

Several mods to the space bar sound have also been noted in detail in the manual, including the addition of O rings - I install everyone's space bars but you can definitely replicate my work by following the manual in case the space bar is dislodged as the keyboard is unfortunately bounced around in shipping.

As a general note the manual on the project web site contains the best practices for quick and safe repairs and maintenance of the new Model F keyboards - if you are relatively new to Model F keyboards please do not attempt your own methods of repair - please follow the manual and post on the forums for help if needed.

TerminalJunkie

16 Apr 2021, 21:10

Is there a way to open and close the inner assembly without having to remove and replace all the keys? When I try, some of the flipper always end up displaced or stuck.

(This is not an Ellipse F … trying to keep at least one of my XTs functional so I have a daily driver while I wait for my new F62.)

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darkcruix

16 Apr 2021, 21:23

Xcore wrote:
16 Apr 2021, 21:00
A cool idea, darkcruix! Are this already ellipse's keys? Because the print looks very sharp!

I have ordered a black classic case with blank black keycaps as well. Hopefully the shipping handlers will be more gentle to the package. Thanks for these tips, Wazrach! I watched the typing demonstration of your keyboard recently.
The ones in the acrylic tray are Ellipse keys and IMHO better than or equal to the original IBM XT ones. What I found interesting: after I replaced keys on my F77 (from Unicomp to Ellipse) I could feel that the whole set was more balanced during typing. Just this week, I had to enter data to a spreadsheet with a ton of periods. That period key just was scratchy and different. When I tried to re-seat it I figured I must have left the period and comma keys from the Unicomp set on the board. Adding the keycaps from Ellipse removed the scratchiness. Without consciously knowing, I could feel the subtle difference.

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raoulduke-esq

16 Apr 2021, 22:27

darkcruix wrote:
16 Apr 2021, 21:23
Without consciously knowing, I could feel the subtle difference.
That makes me really look forward to getting mine! Sadly I made the mistake of ordering a handful of blue caps with novelty legends and a solenoid so it will likely be a few more months of Unicomp keys for me. It’s worth the wait for the quality, but still sad you know?

Wazrach

16 Apr 2021, 22:27

darkcruix wrote:
16 Apr 2021, 21:23
Xcore wrote:
16 Apr 2021, 21:00
A cool idea, darkcruix! Are this already ellipse's keys? Because the print looks very sharp!

I have ordered a black classic case with blank black keycaps as well. Hopefully the shipping handlers will be more gentle to the package. Thanks for these tips, Wazrach! I watched the typing demonstration of your keyboard recently.
The ones in the acrylic tray are Ellipse keys and IMHO better than or equal to the original IBM XT ones. What I found interesting: after I replaced keys on my F77 (from Unicomp to Ellipse) I could feel that the whole set was more balanced during typing. Just this week, I had to enter data to a spreadsheet with a ton of periods. That period key just was scratchy and different. When I tried to re-seat it I figured I must have left the period and comma keys from the Unicomp set on the board. Adding the keycaps from Ellipse removed the scratchiness. Without consciously knowing, I could feel the subtle difference.
I must have received a bad set then, I can't think of any other reason why they're scratchy. I'm glad that the pearl ones are fine.

Ellipse

16 Apr 2021, 22:46

Wazrach not sure if you read my reply but the manual describes how to fix the binding/scratchiness - it is not impossible to fix.

The new Model F keys are based on the original specs and even use the exact same PBT material that IBM used many decades ago. I have not seen any instances of scratchiness. You may be noticing the sound of the spring.

Maybe the IBM XT keys in your collection are likely more heavily worn down in the keystem area or maybe slightly smaller than the F122 and XT reference sets I based the measurements off of, so you are noticing reduced friction between the keys and barrel. Again the manual shows the pinching/wiggling technique if you want to try it. It is the most effective way to smooth things out if needed.

Ellipse

17 Apr 2021, 03:19

Attached is Zed's draft artwork for the international sublimated key sets. The factory expects to start production on these in a few days. If there are any issues please post a reply on this thread.

As a note, these images are drafts and you will not receive all of the keys below in any set. Each language file contains multiple sets that can be ordered separately (front print, base key set, etc.).

As a note the Apple specific keys in the below proposed artwork would be for new orders only. I will not be changing any prior front print orders for the new apple front print.

To view them larger, you can right click and click open image in new tab, or right click to save the file.
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Last edited by Ellipse on 18 Apr 2021, 23:23, edited 1 time in total.

Wazrach

17 Apr 2021, 09:34

Ellipse wrote:
16 Apr 2021, 22:46
Wazrach not sure if you read my reply but the manual describes how to fix the binding/scratchiness - it is not impossible to fix.

The new Model F keys are based on the original specs and even use the exact same PBT material that IBM used many decades ago. I have not seen any instances of scratchiness. You may be noticing the sound of the spring.

Maybe the IBM XT keys in your collection are likely more heavily worn down in the keystem area or maybe slightly smaller than the F122 and XT reference sets I based the measurements off of, so you are noticing reduced friction between the keys and barrel. Again the manual shows the pinching/wiggling technique if you want to try it. It is the most effective way to smooth things out if needed.
Thanks for your reply. I'm well aware of how close the reproduction keycaps are to the originals, so it really does surprise me that I'm experiencing this issue. The XT keycaps I'm using are definitely heavy-worn and there is friction, but it's slick rather than scratchy friction. I did try the pinching technique on a few keys to test, but I didn't like what it did to the feel. It made them less tactile and wobbly. Perhaps I didn't do it well enough.

CliftonR

18 Apr 2021, 03:26

I'm curious - for those who've bought and received your new F77, how long did it take to actually get it?

What would the expected lead time be now, very roughly, for F77 keyboards ordered today, either with or without the special serial number "jump the line" option? Weeks? Months? Over 6 months? Years?

I already ordered one as a special gift for my wife with a special serial #/date, and I seem to have talked myself into one for my own and am trying to settle on what version and options I'd want - I'm patient enough to wait, but wondering just how far out the actual delivery might be.

thefarside

18 Apr 2021, 04:47

CliftonR wrote:
18 Apr 2021, 03:26
I'm curious - for those who've bought and received your new F77, how long did it take to actually get it?

What would the expected lead time be now, very roughly, for F77 keyboards ordered today, either with or without the special serial number "jump the line" option? Weeks? Months? Over 6 months? Years?

I already ordered one as a special gift for my wife with a special serial #/date, and I seem to have talked myself into one for my own and am trying to settle on what version and options I'd want - I'm patient enough to wait, but wondering just how far out the actual delivery might be.
I ordered mine originally with printed keys and no special options and switched to unprinted a couple weeks later to get it sooner and the whole duration was five weeks. I’m glad I didn’t wait. The keyboard is fantastic.

Regarding key feel and scratchiness, I noticed a little friction on a couple keys but it went away with use. I also noticed this on my New Model M so I attribute it to being brand new and having tighter tolerances.

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raoulduke-esq

18 Apr 2021, 05:36

1 year for the F77 and I liked it so much I asked Santa for a F62 for Christmas last year. Santa asked Ellipse what he had in stock and ready to ship, ordered, and it came in like a week.

CliftonR

18 Apr 2021, 07:10

Thanks, those comments were both very helpful! It sounds like I'd do better to order mine with no special options at all, unless they're confirmed to be in stock; for any funky special keys I might want, if they're not in stock I should do those as a separate order later on and just eat the shipping costs on them.

Xcore

18 Apr 2021, 16:55

I ordered mine (Black Classic F77, Black unprinted keys) about a month ago with custom birthdate; tracking started this week on Monday and it arrived in Germany yesterday (and is now stuck in Customs Clearance) 😃

If it's in my hands next week, then sending the keyboard from America to Germany was faster than sending a monitor from Austria to Germany. 😅

Xcore

18 Apr 2021, 16:57

I looked at the German keyset and on my MacBook and my Model M and everything seems to be alright 🙂

Xovaan

18 Apr 2021, 21:05

I ordered an F77 compact with blank black keys with a HHKB layout in mid-2016. Didn’t do a low serial or anything. I’m in no rush haha

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Zed

18 Apr 2021, 22:35

Xcore wrote:
18 Apr 2021, 16:57
I looked at the German keyset and on my MacBook and my Model M and everything seems to be alright 🙂
Thanks for the feedback. Any opinions on my 1.5U 'Caps Lock' legend in the HHKB ISO German set? I wanted to make the bottom row consistent and do a text legend and Google translate claims that 'Caps Lock' is proper German. Google seems pretty smart with regards to keyboard specific legends (it translates 'Ctrl' to 'Strg' for example) but I wanted to be sure.

marfrit

18 Apr 2021, 22:48

Xcore wrote:
18 Apr 2021, 16:55
it arrived in Germany yesterday (and is now stuck in Customs Clearance) 😃
I was lucky to have read up on this - when I got mine, right before paying the import tax, the clerk asked if I am going to connect it to my PC. "Of course I don't! It's for display!" "Ausstellungsstück". That way, they don't need to search for a CE sticker...

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darkcruix

18 Apr 2021, 22:51

Zed wrote:
18 Apr 2021, 22:35
Xcore wrote:
18 Apr 2021, 16:57
I looked at the German keyset and on my MacBook and my Model M and everything seems to be alright 🙂
Thanks for the feedback. Any opinions on my 1.5U 'Caps Lock' legend in the HHKB ISO German set? I wanted to make the bottom row consistent and do a text legend and Google translate claims that 'Caps Lock' is proper German. Google seems pretty smart with regards to keyboard specific legends (it translates 'Ctrl' to 'Strg' for example) but I wanted to be sure.
Hi Zed,
Caps Lock was initially described by IBM as Feststelltaste or Groß. It just looks wrong to me to not use Caps Lock but according the IBM AT handbook (German variant) and looking at a German Model F AT, it is Groß and can be seen in the copy attached (they have a typo in the handbook - it is Groß and not Gnoß).
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Xcore

18 Apr 2021, 23:37

Zed wrote:
18 Apr 2021, 22:35
Any opinions on my 1.5U 'Caps Lock' legend in the HHKB ISO German set? I wanted to make the bottom row consistent and do a text legend and Google translate claims that 'Caps Lock' is proper German.
The German term for Caps Lock (literally maybe "Kap[itälchen]-Schloss") would indeed be "Feststelltaste" – but I have never seen the word Feststelltaste been written on a keyboard ever. I think the German norms are calling for just the arrow symbol without any text.

Caps Lock seems to be used on at least some older Keyboards, e.g. my F/XT has the key labeled Caps Lock.

I dig the "Groß ⇩" from darkcruix photos (even though the manual seems to give it as "Gnoß"? 😆) and I think I have seen that before on German keyboards. As a Mac user, I'd like "Groß ⇪" even more 🙂

Xcore

18 Apr 2021, 23:40

marfrit wrote:
18 Apr 2021, 22:48
Xcore wrote:
18 Apr 2021, 16:55
it arrived in Germany yesterday (and is now stuck in Customs Clearance) 😃
I was lucky to have read up on this - when I got mine, right before paying the import tax, the clerk asked if I am going to connect it to my PC. "Of course I don't! It's for display!" "Ausstellungsstück". That way, they don't need to search for a CE sticker...
I think in my case Asendia will handle all of this and just ask me to pay via PayPal or something 😆

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depletedvespene

19 Apr 2021, 00:26

Okay, so I took a look at my old IBM manuals, and...

Indeed, where it comes to German keyboards, IBM used the icon exclusively on the Enhanced layout (and the PC convertible), "GroB" [sic] on the AT keyboard, and "Caps Lock" on the XT keyboard. But then, the XT keyboards of ALL national layouts had English legends on the modifiers; legends in Spanish, Italian, German and French didn't show up until the AT keyboard era.

Cover page.
Cover page.
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Diagram closeup - German Enhanced layout.
Diagram closeup - German Enhanced layout.
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Diagram closeup - German AT layout.
Diagram closeup - German AT layout.
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Diagram closeup - German XT layout.
Diagram closeup - German XT layout.
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Diagram closeup - German PC Convertible layout.
Diagram closeup - German PC Convertible layout.
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Zed

19 Apr 2021, 01:02

Great feedback darkcruix, XCore and depletedvespene!

While the XT is the model for the project artwork, I am leaning towards the AT style "Groß ⇩" as the way to go. The standard HHKB ISO keys can be ordered by those who want to go with "Caps Lock" and/or "Ctrl" as well.

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depletedvespene

19 Apr 2021, 01:09

Zed wrote:
19 Apr 2021, 01:02
Great feedback darkcruix, XCore and depletedvespene!

While the XT is the model for the project artwork, I am leaning towards the AT style "Groß ⇩" as the way to go. The standard HHKB ISO keys can be ordered by those who want to go with "Caps Lock" and/or "Ctrl" as well.
Wise choice (but DO remember the Swiss don't use the eszett). :mrgreen:

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Zed

19 Apr 2021, 01:35

depletedvespene wrote:
19 Apr 2021, 01:09
Zed wrote:
19 Apr 2021, 01:02
Great feedback darkcruix, XCore and depletedvespene!

While the XT is the model for the project artwork, I am leaning towards the AT style "Groß ⇩" as the way to go. The standard HHKB ISO keys can be ordered by those who want to go with "Caps Lock" and/or "Ctrl" as well.
Wise choice (but DO remember the Swiss don't use the eszett). :mrgreen:
I was not aware. Two years of High School German did not get to the differences in Swiss dialects! So 1.5U "Caps Lock" and 1.75U "Strg" as they are in the currently posted pics then? Any Swiss German customers care to chime in?

Or "Grooss" ?

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squelch

19 Apr 2021, 07:34

Hypersphere wrote:
27 Jul 2020, 13:09
PRIPARA_PLAYER wrote:
27 Jul 2020, 07:20
Does the classic case not have a detachable cable? The store page said the cable was replaceable via a USB-C port, but is that on the inside of the case? If so then I'll probably have to do the same mod once mine arrives.
No, the classic case does not have a cable that is detachable from outside the case. However, if you wanted or needed to replace the cable that is included with the F62 or F77 classic case keyboard, you could do so by opening the case, removing the screw that holds the cable clamp in place, and unplugging the USB-C cable from the receptable on the keyboard controller.

In contrast, the mod that I have described is a way to install a panel-mount connector in the classic keyboard case that is accessible from the outside -- i.e., giving the keyboard a detachable cable.
I was looking at different cables to replace the one that came with my F77. Specifically something coiled. I came across a place that will fabricate any cable you want. So I've specced out an 8 foot cable with 8 inches of coiling.

As I read through their documentation, they specifically mentioned that some keyboards do not do so well with longer cables. It mentioned some boards draw a lot of power, typically lots of LED's, etc. As the F77 does not power any LED's, would it be a safe bet that it could support a longer cable?

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darkcruix

19 Apr 2021, 08:24

Zed wrote:
19 Apr 2021, 01:35
depletedvespene wrote:
19 Apr 2021, 01:09
Zed wrote:
19 Apr 2021, 01:02
Great feedback darkcruix, XCore and depletedvespene!

While the XT is the model for the project artwork, I am leaning towards the AT style "Groß ⇩" as the way to go. The standard HHKB ISO keys can be ordered by those who want to go with "Caps Lock" and/or "Ctrl" as well.
Wise choice (but DO remember the Swiss don't use the eszett). :mrgreen:
I was not aware. Two years of High School German did not get to the differences in Swiss dialects! So 1.5U "Caps Lock" and 1.75U "Strg" as they are in the currently posted pics then? Any Swiss German customers care to chime in?

Or "Grooss" ?
There is no specific Swiss layout in the handbook for the early IBM keyboards (I went as far as getting all of the "Technisches Handbuch" out for the models until 1984). When I look online Swiss layout uses Caps Lock or Caps for keyboards nowadays - this derives out of a Swiss norm that modifiers have to be language neutral (https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tastaturbelegung#Schweiz). I found some stock photos of old typewriters of the era before the norm and there it was nearly always Fest (deriving from Feststelltaste) as the writing on it. See below:
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darkcruix

19 Apr 2021, 09:17

squelch wrote:
19 Apr 2021, 07:34
Hypersphere wrote:
27 Jul 2020, 13:09
PRIPARA_PLAYER wrote:
27 Jul 2020, 07:20
Does the classic case not have a detachable cable? The store page said the cable was replaceable via a USB-C port, but is that on the inside of the case? If so then I'll probably have to do the same mod once mine arrives.
No, the classic case does not have a cable that is detachable from outside the case. However, if you wanted or needed to replace the cable that is included with the F62 or F77 classic case keyboard, you could do so by opening the case, removing the screw that holds the cable clamp in place, and unplugging the USB-C cable from the receptable on the keyboard controller.

In contrast, the mod that I have described is a way to install a panel-mount connector in the classic keyboard case that is accessible from the outside -- i.e., giving the keyboard a detachable cable.
I was looking at different cables to replace the one that came with my F77. Specifically something coiled. I came across a place that will fabricate any cable you want. So I've specced out an 8 foot cable with 8 inches of coiling.

As I read through their documentation, they specifically mentioned that some keyboards do not do so well with longer cables. It mentioned some boards draw a lot of power, typically lots of LED's, etc. As the F77 does not power any LED's, would it be a safe bet that it could support a longer cable?
Hey, according the USB norm it is ok, but I would be careful. When connecting the keyboard through an un-powered hub, it comes to issues as described before... I can imagine that the long cable can also can cause similar issues (Haven't checked that).

sedevidi

19 Apr 2021, 12:25

Hi all. I'm new to the forum, even though I follow this thread since I ordered an F77 a year and a half back.
Re. French layout, I didn't see any problem, until HHKB "Caps Lock" was mentionned. In order to be consistent with "Verr num" and other french localisations, "Caps Lock" should probably be "Verr maj". I'm not able to find proper historical labelling, but many of you seem to have the documentation.
I don't like "Verr maj" or "Verr num" or "Impr écran", but I'd rather have proper vintage labelling.
Nota : I'm not able to validate the Mac layout. PC is OK.

sedevidi

19 Apr 2021, 12:35

@Ellipse : since I ordered the HHBK layout, I will be receiving the "HHKB-ISO" keys (in French).
Will the regular Ctrl and CapsLock keys be also supplied (regular prints on regular key sizes), ie. will I be able to configure the keys with the standard Ctrl + CapsLock, and not the reversed HHKB ones ?
I don't know yet if I like those keys reversed...

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depletedvespene

19 Apr 2021, 13:00

sedevidi wrote:
19 Apr 2021, 12:25
Hi all. I'm new to the forum, even though I follow this thread since I ordered an F77 a year and a half back.
Re. French layout, I didn't see any problem, until HHKB "Caps Lock" was mentionned. In order to be consistent with "Verr num" and other french localisations, "Caps Lock" should probably be "Verr maj". I'm not able to find proper historical labelling, but many of you seem to have the documentation.
I don't like "Verr maj" or "Verr num" or "Impr écran", but I'd rather have proper vintage labelling.
Nota : I'm not able to validate the Mac layout. PC is OK.
I haven't seen any French (France) Model M keyboards with anything other than the icon on Caps Lock. French Canadian units, on the other hand, use "Fix Maj".
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