F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards

sedevidi

19 Apr 2021, 13:18

Zed wrote:
18 Apr 2021, 22:35
I wanted to make the bottom row consistent and do a text legend and Google translate claims that 'Caps Lock' is proper German.
depletedvespene wrote:
19 Apr 2021, 13:00
I haven't seen any French (France) Model M keyboards with anything other than the icon on Caps Lock. French Canadian units, on the other hand, use "Fix Maj".
Yes, I'm talking about French (France). The idea is to follow Zed's idea of text legends. I've never seen "Fix Maj" in France. I prefer the locked-lock icon over "Verr maj" (I don't know if "maj" or "Maj" is better), but I'd rather let the experts here decide.

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Zed

19 Apr 2021, 15:10

Well that escalated quickly! :lol: I'll get to the great Caps Lock debate in a bit but I did have a question for any Dutch customers out there. What I have in the earlier pics as the Dutch Apple layout is basically a US layout and I have come to understand that this may be more common in current use than the IBM style. Would a US type layout with ANSI and/or ISO enter plus a couple of number row keys (2 and 5) with the Euro symbol as a tertiary character be preferred?

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Zed

19 Apr 2021, 19:19

sedevidi wrote:
19 Apr 2021, 12:35
@Ellipse : since I ordered the HHBK layout, I will be receiving the "HHKB-ISO" keys (in French).
Will the regular Ctrl and CapsLock keys be also supplied (regular prints on regular key sizes), ie. will I be able to configure the keys with the standard Ctrl + CapsLock, and not the reversed HHKB ones ?
I don't know yet if I like those keys reversed...
Not Ellipse but you will get the full set of keys of whatever language set you ordered so yes, regular Ctrl and Caps Lock are included whether you order the HHKB kit or not.

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Zed

19 Apr 2021, 19:27

sedevidi wrote:
19 Apr 2021, 13:18
Zed wrote:
18 Apr 2021, 22:35
I wanted to make the bottom row consistent and do a text legend and Google translate claims that 'Caps Lock' is proper German.
depletedvespene wrote:
19 Apr 2021, 13:00
I haven't seen any French (France) Model M keyboards with anything other than the icon on Caps Lock. French Canadian units, on the other hand, use "Fix Maj".
Yes, I'm talking about French (France). The idea is to follow Zed's idea of text legends. I've never seen "Fix Maj" in France. I prefer the locked-lock icon over "Verr maj" (I don't know if "maj" or "Maj" is better), but I'd rather let the experts here decide.
It was only my preference to find a text version for the 1.5U Caps Lock to match the rest of the bottom row. Historical precedence obviously over rides that like the German situation. Going icon only solves these issues and if folks prefer that, no problems at all.

Just to open a further can of worms, what do you guys think of my "Blocco maiuscole" on the Italian sets? It's a Google translate with no precedence that I have seen.

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depletedvespene

19 Apr 2021, 19:30

Zed wrote:
19 Apr 2021, 19:27

Just to open a further can of worms, what do you guys think of my "Blocco maiuscole" on the Italian sets? It's a Google translate with no precedence that I have seen.
Spanish keyboards (both layouts) use "Bloq Mayús", so the abbrev "Bloc Maius" would be the logical thing (not necessarily the correct one) to do.

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Zed

19 Apr 2021, 20:00

depletedvespene wrote:
19 Apr 2021, 19:30
Zed wrote:
19 Apr 2021, 19:27

Just to open a further can of worms, what do you guys think of my "Blocco maiuscole" on the Italian sets? It's a Google translate with no precedence that I have seen.
Spanish keyboards (both layouts) use "Bloq Mayús", so the abbrev "Bloc Maius" would be the logical thing (not necessarily the correct one) to do.
I'm leaning towards just going with the padlock icon for the French and Italian sets with the German style ⇩ for Swiss German. It seems like a safer choice if that makes any sense. Regular HHKB ISO sets can be ordered by those who don't like. Always open to going the other way if folks prefer.

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darkcruix

19 Apr 2021, 21:18

Zed wrote:
19 Apr 2021, 20:00
depletedvespene wrote:
19 Apr 2021, 19:30
Zed wrote:
19 Apr 2021, 19:27

Just to open a further can of worms, what do you guys think of my "Blocco maiuscole" on the Italian sets? It's a Google translate with no precedence that I have seen.
Spanish keyboards (both layouts) use "Bloq Mayús", so the abbrev "Bloc Maius" would be the logical thing (not necessarily the correct one) to do.
I'm leaning towards just going with the padlock icon for the French and Italian sets with the German style ⇩ for Swiss German. It seems like a safer choice if that makes any sense. Regular HHKB ISO sets can be ordered by those who don't like. Always open to going the other way if folks prefer.
Great choice !!!!

nik137

20 Apr 2021, 09:30

Zed wrote:
19 Apr 2021, 01:35
depletedvespene wrote:
19 Apr 2021, 01:09
Zed wrote:
19 Apr 2021, 01:02
Great feedback darkcruix, XCore and depletedvespene!

While the XT is the model for the project artwork, I am leaning towards the AT style "Groß ⇩" as the way to go. The standard HHKB ISO keys can be ordered by those who want to go with "Caps Lock" and/or "Ctrl" as well.
Wise choice (but DO remember the Swiss don't use the eszett). :mrgreen:
I was not aware. Two years of High School German did not get to the differences in Swiss dialects! So 1.5U "Caps Lock" and 1.75U "Strg" as they are in the currently posted pics then? Any Swiss German customers care to chime in?

Or "Grooss" ?
Although I am Swiss, I did not order a Swiss version so I don't have strong feelings either way, but Strg for Ctrl is very unusual on a Swiss keyboard. In general Swiss keyboards use English legends everywhere (modifiers, nav cluster, numpad sublegends etc.). Maybe the IBM Model F was different, in that case I would understand reproducing the original legends.

Jan Pospisil

20 Apr 2021, 10:10

But but...at least you had the option.
*sad Czech noises*

sedevidi

20 Apr 2021, 10:15

Zed wrote:
19 Apr 2021, 20:00
depletedvespene wrote:
19 Apr 2021, 19:30
Zed wrote:
19 Apr 2021, 19:27

Just to open a further can of worms, what do you guys think of my "Blocco maiuscole" on the Italian sets? It's a Google translate with no precedence that I have seen.
Spanish keyboards (both layouts) use "Bloq Mayús", so the abbrev "Bloc Maius" would be the logical thing (not necessarily the correct one) to do.
I'm leaning towards just going with the padlock icon for the French and Italian sets with the German style ⇩ for Swiss German. It seems like a safer choice if that makes any sense. Regular HHKB ISO sets can be ordered by those who don't like. Always open to going the other way if folks prefer.
Just to rephrase to be sure :
  • regular French-France-ISO caps-lock key : padlock icon just as you did in the above image
  • HHKB caps-lock key : text-legend as you proposed, but in French "Verr Maj" (upper case "Maj" as in spanish/italian)

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Zed

20 Apr 2021, 14:12

nik137 wrote:
20 Apr 2021, 09:30
Zed wrote:
19 Apr 2021, 01:35
depletedvespene wrote:
19 Apr 2021, 01:09


Wise choice (but DO remember the Swiss don't use the eszett). :mrgreen:
I was not aware. Two years of High School German did not get to the differences in Swiss dialects! So 1.5U "Caps Lock" and 1.75U "Strg" as they are in the currently posted pics then? Any Swiss German customers care to chime in?

Or "Grooss" ?
Although I am Swiss, I did not order a Swiss version so I don't have strong feelings either way, but Strg for Ctrl is very unusual on a Swiss keyboard. In general Swiss keyboards use English legends everywhere (modifiers, nav cluster, numpad sublegends etc.). Maybe the IBM Model F was different, in that case I would understand reproducing the original legends.
The IBM documents I have been working from (Model M era) have English legends for the Swiss French & German but Swiss German uses all the German modifiers.
1395888_102_Key_Swiss_German.pdf
(195.17 KiB) Downloaded 6 times
This are what the Swiss sets currently looks like:
Swiss German.png
Swiss German.png (201.93 KiB) Viewed 507 times
Swiss French_German v16.png
Swiss French_German v16.png (168.08 KiB) Viewed 507 times

Jan Pospisil

20 Apr 2021, 14:18

Zed wrote:
20 Apr 2021, 14:12
The IBM documents I have been working from (Model M era) have English legends for the Swiss French & German but Swiss German uses all the German modifiers.

1395888_102_Key_Swiss_German.pdf

This are what the Swiss sets currently looks like:

Swiss German.png

Swiss French_German v16.png
I'm curious, does the document have images of the IBM Czech set?

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Zed

20 Apr 2021, 14:19

sedevidi wrote:
20 Apr 2021, 10:15
Zed wrote:
19 Apr 2021, 20:00
depletedvespene wrote:
19 Apr 2021, 19:30


Spanish keyboards (both layouts) use "Bloq Mayús", so the abbrev "Bloc Maius" would be the logical thing (not necessarily the correct one) to do.
I'm leaning towards just going with the padlock icon for the French and Italian sets with the German style ⇩ for Swiss German. It seems like a safer choice if that makes any sense. Regular HHKB ISO sets can be ordered by those who don't like. Always open to going the other way if folks prefer.
Just to rephrase to be sure :
  • regular French-France-ISO caps-lock key : padlock icon just as you did in the above image
  • HHKB caps-lock key : text-legend as you proposed, but in French "Verr Maj" (upper case "Maj" as in spanish/italian)
My latest thoughts were to go with this since "Verr Maj" has only been found on French Canadian boards but I can go either way:
French.png
French.png (202.33 KiB) Viewed 498 times

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depletedvespene

20 Apr 2021, 14:20

Jan Pospisil wrote:
20 Apr 2021, 14:18
Zed wrote:
20 Apr 2021, 14:12
The IBM documents I have been working from (Model M era) have English legends for the Swiss French & German but Swiss German uses all the German modifiers.

1395888_102_Key_Swiss_German.pdf

This are what the Swiss sets currently looks like:

Swiss German.png

Swiss French_German v16.png
I'm curious, does the document have images of the IBM Czech set?
Lemme look.

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depletedvespene

20 Apr 2021, 14:27

nik137 wrote:
20 Apr 2021, 09:30

Although I am Swiss, I did not order a Swiss version so I don't have strong feelings either way, but Strg for Ctrl is very unusual on a Swiss keyboard. In general Swiss keyboards use English legends everywhere (modifiers, nav cluster, numpad sublegends etc.). Maybe the IBM Model F was different, in that case I would understand reproducing the original legends.
According to the manual I got here, Swiss keyboards by IBM always use English legends. We know Swiss keyboards were introduced rather later, but the manual "retrofits" the national layout to AT, XT and Convertible layouts, as well as the Enhanced layout, always with English legends.

Nevertheless, I think it's a nice extra choice for German-speaking Swiss to have their repros with German legends if they so desire ("Groß" notwithstanding).


EDIT: the manual I got here is from 1988. It may well be that "later on", IBM decided to do a "Germans only" version of the Swiss keyboard layout, which was then inherited by Unicomp (which is what that PDF comes from).
Last edited by depletedvespene on 20 Apr 2021, 14:31, edited 1 time in total.

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Zed

20 Apr 2021, 14:29

Jan Pospisil wrote:
20 Apr 2021, 14:18
Zed wrote:
20 Apr 2021, 14:12
The IBM documents I have been working from (Model M era) have English legends for the Swiss French & German but Swiss German uses all the German modifiers.

1395888_102_Key_Swiss_German.pdf

This are what the Swiss sets currently looks like:

Swiss German.png

Swiss French_German v16.png
I'm curious, does the document have images of the IBM Czech set?
Yes, and special thanks to depletedvespene for rescuing this set (different from the one I just posted above but still official IBM) from the IBM site before they took them down. He has all of them linked on his website which is a great resource for comparing different national layouts.

http://www.farah.cl/Keyboardery/A-Visua ... l-Layouts/

KBD243.pdf
(93.98 KiB) Downloaded 7 times
I would be happy to do a Czech layout for you but you will have to get approval from Ellipse about this.

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depletedvespene

20 Apr 2021, 14:30

Jan Pospisil wrote:
20 Apr 2021, 14:18
Zed wrote:
20 Apr 2021, 14:12
The IBM documents I have been working from (Model M era) have English legends for the Swiss French & German but Swiss German uses all the German modifiers.

1395888_102_Key_Swiss_German.pdf

This are what the Swiss sets currently looks like:

Swiss German.png

Swiss French_German v16.png
I'm curious, does the document have images of the IBM Czech set?
See http://www.farah.cl/Keyboardery/A-Visua ... KBD243.pdf

User avatar
depletedvespene

20 Apr 2021, 14:35

Zed wrote:
20 Apr 2021, 14:19

My latest thoughts were to go with this since "Verr Maj" has only been found on French Canadian boards but I can go either way:

My hunch would be to go with the icon as the main keycap and "Verr Maj" as the alternate one on the French (France) layout, and keep "Fix Maj" in the French Canadian layout (if that one gets done later).

User avatar
Zed

20 Apr 2021, 15:01

depletedvespene wrote:
20 Apr 2021, 14:35
Zed wrote:
20 Apr 2021, 14:19

My latest thoughts were to go with this since "Verr Maj" has only been found on French Canadian boards but I can go either way:

My hunch would be to go with the icon as the main keycap and "Verr Maj" as the alternate one on the French (France) layout, and keep "Fix Maj" in the French Canadian layout (if that one gets done later).
French customers please chime in!
French HHKB options.png
French HHKB options.png (15.23 KiB) Viewed 455 times

GetInTheRolls

20 Apr 2021, 15:59

Hey guys, I am having an issue with my 9 numpad key. I have tried re seating it and flipping the spring to no avail. When I open up the signal monitor and wiggle the spring around, the middle number decreases be 2-4 points, with the top and bottom number staying the same. Please let me know what steps I can take next to troubleshoot, thanks!

Top right corner (120 on the 9 numpad)
Attachments
Capture.PNG
Capture.PNG (27.49 KiB) Viewed 439 times

Jan Pospisil

20 Apr 2021, 16:14

Zed wrote:
20 Apr 2021, 14:29
Jan Pospisil wrote:
20 Apr 2021, 14:18
Zed wrote:
20 Apr 2021, 14:12
The IBM documents I have been working from (Model M era) have English legends for the Swiss French & German but Swiss German uses all the German modifiers.

1395888_102_Key_Swiss_German.pdf

This are what the Swiss sets currently looks like:

Swiss German.png

Swiss French_German v16.png
I'm curious, does the document have images of the IBM Czech set?
Yes, and special thanks to depletedvespene for rescuing this set (different from the one I just posted above but still official IBM) from the IBM site before they took them down. He has all of them linked on his website which is a great resource for comparing different national layouts.

http://www.farah.cl/Keyboardery/A-Visua ... l-Layouts/


KBD243.pdf

I would be happy to do a Czech layout for you but you will have to get approval from Ellipse about this.
Thanks! I asked Ellipse if he was planning any more country-specific sets before and he said no.
So I guess not?

sedevidi

20 Apr 2021, 16:59

Zed wrote:
20 Apr 2021, 15:01
depletedvespene wrote:
20 Apr 2021, 14:35
Zed wrote:
20 Apr 2021, 14:19

My latest thoughts were to go with this since "Verr Maj" has only been found on French Canadian boards but I can go either way:

My hunch would be to go with the icon as the main keycap and "Verr Maj" as the alternate one on the French (France) layout, and keep "Fix Maj" in the French Canadian layout (if that one gets done later).
French customers please chime in!

French HHKB options.png
I vote for the text-legend only in HHKB alternate, because I like your suggestion, but without the typo ;-)
"Verr Maj"
Nota : the "Esc" in both front print extras (bottom right) should probably be "Échap" just like the regular Esc legend.

Ellipse

20 Apr 2021, 17:15

At this point additional language sets are now possible - this was not the case before. Zed is working on Model F quality APL and JIS sets too!

OK to add Czech as an option if Zed is up to creating it and if someone wants it!

Please do post here if you would personally like to order any other specific language key sets.

GetInTheRolls please check out the manual which offers a full checklist of steps in the troubleshooting section. I just updated it today. One section is dedicated to the specific issue of one key not working. I'd guess your spring needs re-seating or replacement but please follow the checklist.

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Zed

20 Apr 2021, 18:10

sedevidi wrote:
20 Apr 2021, 16:59
Zed wrote:
20 Apr 2021, 15:01
depletedvespene wrote:
20 Apr 2021, 14:35



My hunch would be to go with the icon as the main keycap and "Verr Maj" as the alternate one on the French (France) layout, and keep "Fix Maj" in the French Canadian layout (if that one gets done later).
French customers please chime in!

French HHKB options.png
I vote for the text-legend only in HHKB alternate, because I like your suggestion, but without the typo ;-)
"Verr Maj"
Nota : the "Esc" in both front print extras (bottom right) should probably be "Échap" just like the regular Esc legend.
Thanks for the catch!

User avatar
Zed

20 Apr 2021, 18:16

Ellipse wrote:
20 Apr 2021, 17:15
At this point additional language sets are now possible - this was not the case before. Zed is working on Model F quality APL and JIS sets too!

OK to add Czech as an option if Zed is up to creating it and if someone wants it!

Please do post here if you would personally like to order any other specific language key sets.
Just let me know which version of the Czech layout is preferred. Same goes for any other language requests. After the current ISO sets are ironed out I'll have JIS, Korean, Russian, Arabic, Hebrew and the APL sets coming.

User avatar
Zed

20 Apr 2021, 19:46

How does this looks for handling the HHKB ISO sets? Any set can be ordered regardless of which language you have. Italian is still under review If anyone wants to comment.
HHKB Kits.png
HHKB Kits.png (53.89 KiB) Viewed 304 times

Jan Pospisil

20 Apr 2021, 19:50

Zed wrote:
20 Apr 2021, 18:16
Ellipse wrote:
20 Apr 2021, 17:15
At this point additional language sets are now possible - this was not the case before. Zed is working on Model F quality APL and JIS sets too!

OK to add Czech as an option if Zed is up to creating it and if someone wants it!

Please do post here if you would personally like to order any other specific language key sets.
Just let me know which version of the Czech layout is preferred. Same goes for any other language requests. After the current ISO sets are ironed out I'll have JIS, Korean, Russian, Arabic, Hebrew and the APL sets coming.
Sweet! What is meant by "version", like ANSI vs. ISO? We usually have ISO here.
I will definitely buy at least one, possibly two sets. (for my Ms)

User avatar
Zed

20 Apr 2021, 19:59

Jan Pospisil wrote:
20 Apr 2021, 19:50
Zed wrote:
20 Apr 2021, 18:16
Ellipse wrote:
20 Apr 2021, 17:15
At this point additional language sets are now possible - this was not the case before. Zed is working on Model F quality APL and JIS sets too!

OK to add Czech as an option if Zed is up to creating it and if someone wants it!

Please do post here if you would personally like to order any other specific language key sets.
Just let me know which version of the Czech layout is preferred. Same goes for any other language requests. After the current ISO sets are ironed out I'll have JIS, Korean, Russian, Arabic, Hebrew and the APL sets coming.
Sweet! What is meant by "version", like ANSI vs. ISO? We usually have ISO here.
I will definitely buy at least one, possibly two sets. (for my Ms)
Apologies for the confusion. By version I was talking about the IBM layout like the Pdf depletedvespene and I posted earlier or an Apple style layout https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT201794 or even something else? http://www.farah.cl/Keyboardery/A-Visua ... ayouts/#cs Which keys the AltGr characters go on basically.

Any other aspects like HHKB kit, split backspace or shift. etc.?

Jesse9766

20 Apr 2021, 20:21

Ellipse wrote:
20 Apr 2021, 17:15
At this point additional language sets are now possible - this was not the case before. Zed is working on Model F quality APL and JIS sets too!

OK to add Czech as an option if Zed is up to creating it and if someone wants it!

Please do post here if you would personally like to order any other specific language key sets.

GetInTheRolls please check out the manual which offers a full checklist of steps in the troubleshooting section. I just updated it today. One section is dedicated to the specific issue of one key not working. I'd guess your spring needs re-seating or replacement but please follow the checklist.
Are there any plans for a Thai sublegends set? A Model F with Thai keycaps exists, but is incredibly rare.

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=20365

Image

Jan Pospisil

20 Apr 2021, 20:28

Oh wow, that goes in depth. I don't really use layers beyond shift, so I don't have an opinion on that.
(and tbh, whoever wrote that is pretty judgy, I would NOT want to use their "fixed Czech" layout)
We definitely prefer QWERTZ.
I originally ordered (UK) ISO with a split right Shift, so that'd be my adjustments beyond just the Czech layout as shown in the IBM pdf.

I couldn't find any photos of model Fs with Czech caps, and the Ms I found were not very clear, sorry about that.
So modern Czech kbs usually have (Z Y) on the Z and Y caps, with the default symbol in the top left corner. But neither of the Ms seem to have that. (so I wouldn't do that)
The older grey badge one seems to have secondary characters on some of the alphas, but not all that are shown in the IBM pdf. The newer blue badge doesn't have any that I can see.
Spoiler:
Image
Image
I don't honestly care about those, but if we're going for accuracy, I guess we should stick to the IBM pdf?

edit: OK hold up, I might be wrong.

So I'm noticing that the beige secondary legends in the PDF are not how those keys actually work nowadays.
Should it be historically accurate to the IBM standard, or like..practical for today?
Last edited by Jan Pospisil on 20 Apr 2021, 20:50, edited 2 times in total.

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