F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards

User avatar
:Dön:

03 May 2021, 12:31

I have previously used the 5576c01 layout as a reference to create a keyboard layout. This uses a font that is much closer to Ishii Gothic than Yu Gothic. I can provide you with a print sheet that is almost identical to the 5576 layout if you ask me for help. This font is a bit tricky to work with, so if you don't understand Japanese, it will be difficult to handle. I also know all the keyboard layouts for the 5576 and have friends who like keyboards, so I can create a custom set that the Japanese would like.
I thought the Alt Gr key was used in Europe? I'm not familiar with it; it's not in JIS.
What I would like most is to have a short space key rather than a complex Japanese character layout. The "convert(変換)" and "no convert(無変換)" keys are not practical unless they are as easily accessible with the thumb (which may vary from person to person) as the space key. Because nowadays, the function keys and the spacebar can replace those functions. The Japanese have made the space key longer because they don't need to use the conversion and non-conversion keys as much anymore. But if the space key were shorter, those keys would be more useful.
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B49F78FE-9050-4B49-9CCC-C4452077ACEA.jpeg
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PRIPARA_PLAYER

03 May 2021, 13:58

I'd happily second a shorter space key, but unfortunately the previous example already seems to be using the shorter space bar style (the same as the one in JIS Unicomp layout) and I'm not sure it can come any shorter.

User avatar
:Dön:

03 May 2021, 14:24

They will probably say that they can't do that because they will have to make a different mold for the JIS size space key... Surprisingly, the length of the space key is important, and it leads to the use or not of the conversion and non-conversion keys.

keyboardsnail

03 May 2021, 16:33

Would anybody be willing to buy my order off me?
I'm still waiting for my order to ship but I'm no longer in the US so I'd prefer to sell it over paying international shipping.
I ordered a F77 in off white/beige with standard ANSI printed keys. Exactly what is shown in the image below except in beige.
I'm hoping to get $350 $60 less than I paid. But I'm open to all offers.

Image

User avatar
Muirium
µ

03 May 2021, 17:10

keyboardsnail wrote:
03 May 2021, 16:33
I'm hoping to get $350 $60 less than I paid. But I'm open to all offers.
Beaut of a board. Anyone in the US in need of an F77 should snatch this! Assuming it ships anytime soon.

User avatar
Bjerrk

03 May 2021, 17:17

Muirium wrote:
03 May 2021, 17:10
keyboardsnail wrote:
03 May 2021, 16:33
I'm hoping to get $350 $60 less than I paid. But I'm open to all offers.
Beaut of a board. Anyone in the US in need of an F77 should snatch this! Assuming it ships anytime soon.
I have an essentially identical keyboard, and I still find myself thinking "damn that's a cool keyboard" when looking at photos in this thread. That says something!

(Does it say that I am a dork?)

User avatar
Zed

03 May 2021, 17:20

PRIPARA_PLAYER wrote:
03 May 2021, 13:58
I'd happily second a shorter space key, but unfortunately the previous example already seems to be using the shorter space bar style (the same as the one in JIS Unicomp layout) and I'm not sure it can come any shorter.
It is my understanding that the Japanese orders will have a 5.5U spacebar (Unicomp style) as I have been showing above. With what you and Dön have been saying about using longer spacebars it seems that option #3 would be a good addition?
JIS Bottom row options.png
JIS Bottom row options.png (31.47 KiB) Viewed 1069 times
PRIPARA_PLAYER wrote:
03 May 2021, 05:39
On a side note, your first three front print extras are also all keys I would plan to pick up. I'm not sure if you can't have front print in the default set, but if you can then my preference would be for the first two to be in there, and the third is to again match historical accuracy over modern keyboards.
Ellipse wanted me to minimize it for the base sets so things would not be delayed while the factory works out the front printing. That is why the more accurate front printed stuff is in an 'Extras' set.

PRIPARA_PLAYER

03 May 2021, 17:22

As long as the option 1 keys are offered as extras I think option 3 is likely the best bet.

Edit: Actually, it might be better to swap alt and the hiragana key for symmetry and so the key is closer to space.

User avatar
Zed

03 May 2021, 17:56

:Dön: wrote:
03 May 2021, 12:31
I have previously used the 5576c01 layout as a reference to create a keyboard layout. This uses a font that is much closer to Ishii Gothic than Yu Gothic. I can provide you with a print sheet that is almost identical to the 5576 layout if you ask me for help. This font is a bit tricky to work with, so if you don't understand Japanese, it will be difficult to handle.
If you can get me the font and maybe an Inkscape or Illustrator file (like the picture you posted) with the characters typed out, I think we could figure it out. An Inkscape/Illustrator file with the font converted to outline paths could also work. My Japanese knowledge is not the greatest but I am used to entering characters using Unicode.
PRIPARA_PLAYER wrote:
03 May 2021, 17:22
As long as the option 1 keys are offered as extras I think option 3 is likely the best bet.

Edit: Actually, it might be better to swap alt and the hiragana key for symmetry and so the key is closer to space.
Sounds good.

Ellipse

04 May 2021, 02:48

Thanks to everyone for the continuing, great discussion on getting the key legends as good as possible and about the possibility of additional languages. I hope as many languages (that people intend on using on their Model F / Model M) can be made available.

Question to reflow soldering / PCB experts: is anyone interested in a handful of (free) xwhatsit controllers that did not pass quality control standards? Example issues: row or column not detected, entire controller not detected by computer.

The controllers would be free and I would cover the cost of shipping in the US, with the only requirement that you make a good faith attempt to repair them and let me know in detail how to fix them, so I can pass along the info to the factory. Maybe you'd need to remove one working shift register chip over to another PCB and keep one or more of the PCBs as "for parts" units, for example. I'd also request that you fix and mail me back one or two of the many controllers I send over, just to show the factory that they are in fact repairable.

In the attached comparison, my suspicion is that the PCB on the top had its USB-C connector soldered at such an angle that caused the controller to not work. It just shows every gray dot as pressed in the xwhatsit capsense utility program, at any threshold value (xwhatsit's Model F testing PDF notes that a working controller should display no gray dots at the very first startup and should initially auto calibrate to threshold value 681). The one on the bottom is tested and working.
20210503_201642.jpg
20210503_201642.jpg (1.71 MiB) Viewed 956 times

User avatar
:Dön:

04 May 2021, 03:42

Zed wrote:
03 May 2021, 17:20
PRIPARA_PLAYER wrote:
03 May 2021, 13:58
I'd happily second a shorter space key, but unfortunately the previous example already seems to be using the shorter space bar style (the same as the one in JIS Unicomp layout) and I'm not sure it can come any shorter.
It is my understanding that the Japanese orders will have a 5.5U spacebar (Unicomp style) as I have been showing above. With what you and Dön have been saying about using longer spacebars it seems that option #3 would be a good addition?

JIS Bottom row options.png
PRIPARA_PLAYER wrote:
03 May 2021, 05:39
On a side note, your first three front print extras are also all keys I would plan to pick up. I'm not sure if you can't have front print in the default set, but if you can then my preference would be for the first two to be in there, and the third is to again match historical accuracy over modern keyboards.
Ellipse wanted me to minimize it for the base sets so things would not be delayed while the factory works out the front printing. That is why the more accurate front printed stuff is in an 'Extras' set.
I think option 1 is the best. The proper length space key for Japanese is 2.5U. Maybe you guys say you can't manufacture this...
My font is a Chinese font and Japanese is not displayed. I think you need to know the difference between Chinese and Japanese to handle it. The same kanji will look different in Japanese and Chinese. If you send me the draft data of the print sheet, I may be able to provide it in outline format.

User avatar
:Dön:

04 May 2021, 03:55

Zed wrote:
03 May 2021, 17:56
:Dön: wrote:
03 May 2021, 12:31
I have previously used the 5576c01 layout as a reference to create a keyboard layout. This uses a font that is much closer to Ishii Gothic than Yu Gothic. I can provide you with a print sheet that is almost identical to the 5576 layout if you ask me for help. This font is a bit tricky to work with, so if you don't understand Japanese, it will be difficult to handle.
If you can get me the font and maybe an Inkscape or Illustrator file (like the picture you posted) with the characters typed out, I think we could figure it out. An Inkscape/Illustrator file with the font converted to outline paths could also work. My Japanese knowledge is not the greatest but I am used to entering characters using Unicode.
PRIPARA_PLAYER wrote:
03 May 2021, 17:22
As long as the option 1 keys are offered as extras I think option 3 is likely the best bet.

Edit: Actually, it might be better to swap alt and the hiragana key for symmetry and so the key is closer to space.
Sounds good.
Maybe I can. How would you like me to send you the data? Would it be possible for me to send it to you personally?

User avatar
Zed

04 May 2021, 04:12

:Dön: wrote:
04 May 2021, 03:42

I think option 1 is the best. The proper length space key for Japanese is 2.5U. Maybe you guys say you can't manufacture this...
My font is a Chinese font and Japanese is not displayed. I think you need to know the difference between Chinese and Japanese to handle it. The same kanji will look different in Japanese and Chinese. If you send me the draft data of the print sheet, I may be able to provide it in outline format.
Now that sounds a bit complicated! If you can work with an Inkscape file, I can send you a file through the Private Message system here.

I think we will be able to offer several bottom row options

User avatar
:Dön:

04 May 2021, 04:20

Zed wrote:
04 May 2021, 04:12
:Dön: wrote:
04 May 2021, 03:42

I think option 1 is the best. The proper length space key for Japanese is 2.5U. Maybe you guys say you can't manufacture this...
My font is a Chinese font and Japanese is not displayed. I think you need to know the difference between Chinese and Japanese to handle it. The same kanji will look different in Japanese and Chinese. If you send me the draft data of the print sheet, I may be able to provide it in outline format.
Now that sounds a bit complicated! If you can work with an Inkscape file, I can send you a file through the Private Message system here.

I think we will be able to offer several bottom row options
Oh I see, I just created an account a few days ago so I didn't know about the private message feature.
I think it can handle svg files and the like.

PRIPARA_PLAYER

04 May 2021, 04:51

I imagine the issue isn't just that they don't have a 2.5U mold, but that the barrels and whatnot underneath aren't designed to fit the extra keys. If there's a way to fit them I'd happily manually cut my space bar down to 2.5U.

lachmoewe

04 May 2021, 10:22

Ellipse wrote:
04 May 2021, 02:48
In the attached comparison, my suspicion is that the PCB on the top had its USB-C connector soldered at such an angle that caused the controller to not work. It just shows every gray dot as pressed in the xwhatsit capsense utility program, at any threshold value (xwhatsit's Model F testing PDF notes that a working controller should display no gray dots at the very first startup and should initially auto calibrate to threshold value 681). The one on the bottom is tested and working.

20210503_201642.jpg
First time posting but I might be able to judge this. You are right, it does look like the USB-C socket is placed way off. Repairing this is nearly impossible, as the socket most likely uses 2 rows of SMT pads in very close proximity hidden from view. If there is a short you will not be able to see it.

One solution to this problem can be to use a different footprint for the socket, with smaller holes for the THT shielding pins for tighter tolerances and less room for it to be soldered at an angle. Do you know if a two step soldering process is used with this part? Most fabs I know of solder the signal pads first in an oven and solder the shielding pins manually afterwards.

For further analyzation better pictures would be nice, maybe you can get a few macro shots from the side so we can see the solder connections. Can you state which exact model of USB-C socket is used?

User avatar
an_achronism

04 May 2021, 11:23

PRIPARA_PLAYER wrote:
04 May 2021, 04:51
I imagine the issue isn't just that they don't have a 2.5U mold, but that the barrels and whatnot underneath aren't designed to fit the extra keys. If there's a way to fit them I'd happily manually cut my space bar down to 2.5U.
I believe you are correct. I was told that you could do it, but it would result in uneven spacing to the left and right, depending on which keycap sizes you chose, one being too tight, the other leaving too much of a gap.

Incidentally, I suspect it is not coincidental that the space bar on my Unicomp New Model M is off-centre if I swap out the stock one for the longer bar (as is my preference). Both the long and short bars on that board are uncomfortably tight against the left Alt key, and with the long spacebar in place, there is too much of a gap to the right (between Space and right Alt / Alt Gr). When I pointed this out, they didn't really comment other than saying that all the moulds were like that, which I felt was obvious. It's very annoying.

PRIPARA_PLAYER

04 May 2021, 16:38

I believe the Unicomp New Model M uses their shorter space bar, the same as their old JIS 106-key and the short space bar Ellipse offers, which allows adding one 1.25/1.5 key. Creating a proper JIS layout would require shortening it further to add another two additional keys.

I don't have my F77 yet since I didn't want to split keys and pay international shipping multiple times, but from what I see online the foam and whatnot allows for that one extra key but doesn't make room for another two.

User avatar
an_achronism

04 May 2021, 23:39

PRIPARA_PLAYER wrote:
04 May 2021, 16:38
I believe the Unicomp New Model M uses their shorter space bar, the same as their old JIS 106-key and the short space bar Ellipse offers, which allows adding one 1.25/1.5 key. Creating a proper JIS layout would require shortening it further to add another two additional keys.
No, I know that, but what I'm saying is regardless of which size of space bar you use on it, there is not enough space between the left Alt key and the Space bar, and there is too much space between the right Alt (or Alt Gr) key and the Space bar. I brought this up with Unicomp and they just said it was like that on all the boards, that's just how it is on the chassis. What I'm wondering is whether this is a result of them having displaced the position of the Space bar very slightly in order to accommodate the additional keys without it being too tight a squeeze on the right hand side; it seems they've overshot by maybe 1 mm or so, if I'm right about that.

PRIPARA_PLAYER wrote:
04 May 2021, 16:38
I don't have my F77 yet since I didn't want to split keys and pay international shipping multiple times, but from what I see online the foam and whatnot allows for that one extra key but doesn't make room for another two.
Yeah, definitely better to ship it all in one go. And I think that's more or less correct, but apparently there is a slight spacing issue if you do go for the short space bar, which is what made me wonder about Unicomp's new ones. It's either a bit too tight or you go for a smaller key size and there's too much space, one or the other. On the Unicomp New Model M, it's *almost* centred, but not quite.

Ellipse

04 May 2021, 23:50

an_achronism yes I believe Unicomp's 2013 product update also shows a slight gap for the 1.25 key whereas the older 104 design did not have an extra gap.

I think I designed the F62 and F77 to be more in line with Unicomp's revised design, so that both smaller and larger space bars are compatible. Maybe the older Unicomp design did not allow for both larger and smaller space bars using the same barrel frame, and with the 1.5U / 1U / 1.5U key arrangement on the left and right side of the space bar.

https://www.pckeyboard.com/mm5/graphics ... -25-13.pdf

User avatar
an_achronism

05 May 2021, 00:06

Ellipse wrote:
04 May 2021, 23:50
an_achronism yes I believe Unicomp's 2013 product update also shows a slight gap for the 1.25 key whereas the older 104 design did not have an extra gap.

I think I designed the F62 and F77 to be more in line with Unicomp's revised design, so that both smaller and larger space bars are compatible. Maybe the older Unicomp design did not allow for both larger and smaller space bars using the same barrel frame, and with the 1.5U / 1U / 1.5U key arrangement on the left and right side of the space bar.

https://www.pckeyboard.com/mm5/graphics ... -25-13.pdf
That's pretty much what I'm guessing, aye. It's unfortunate because the first thing I did when I got my New Model M was swap the short Space bar for a long one (removing the 1.25U right Windows key), expecting that to result in a perfectly centred and symmetrical bottom row (1.5U | 1U | 1.5U | 7U | 1.5U | 1U | 1.5U)... but it isn't, because there's more of a gap on the right of Space than on the left. It's subtle, but I'm picky, apparently.

Also, note that in that PDF the long Space bar does *not* leave a noticeable gap on the right. But on my New Model M, there's definitely more space there. The left side of Space is almost scuffing Alt, but the right side has a fair amount of space before Alt Gr:

Image Image

EDIT: Oh, and out of curiosity (just to rule out the actual keycaps, in case the chassis was fine) I tried putting an original IBM Space bar on it. Which was stupendously idiotic, because of course the original space bar has a support beam right where they added the extra 1.25U key, meaning it slams into that barrel if you try to clip it down. I'd have to remove the whole barrel with a Dremel or something, I reckon.

User avatar
Zed

05 May 2021, 00:49

:Dön: wrote:
04 May 2021, 04:20
Zed wrote:
04 May 2021, 04:12
:Dön: wrote:
04 May 2021, 03:42

I think option 1 is the best. The proper length space key for Japanese is 2.5U. Maybe you guys say you can't manufacture this...
My font is a Chinese font and Japanese is not displayed. I think you need to know the difference between Chinese and Japanese to handle it. The same kanji will look different in Japanese and Chinese. If you send me the draft data of the print sheet, I may be able to provide it in outline format.
Now that sounds a bit complicated! If you can work with an Inkscape file, I can send you a file through the Private Message system here.

I think we will be able to offer several bottom row options
Oh I see, I just created an account a few days ago so I didn't know about the private message feature.
I think it can handle svg files and the like.
I got the new font from Dön and it looks perfect! Well done! I haven't updated the artwork yet but I had another question about the alignment of the some of the Hiragana punctuation.
JIS punctuation alignment.png
JIS punctuation alignment.png (23.85 KiB) Viewed 604 times
Blue : bottom left justified
Green : vertically centered, horizontally centererd?
Purple : top right justified?
Red : vertically centered ?, right justified?

I think I have things correct but IBM does not agree. They seem to put the red and purple symbols left justified.

User avatar
:Dön:

05 May 2021, 03:05

I am honored to be of service. :D
I have illustrated what each symbol stands for.

This is how it was arranged on the old lenovo (IBM) Preferred Keyboard.
Attachments
3033991A-9ECD-4E5E-A788-DB4EA9CDEAEB.jpeg
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:Dön:

05 May 2021, 03:06

Lenovo(IBM)
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9111A0C0-02FB-498D-81C2-10A4769D8D77.jpeg
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User avatar
:Dön:

05 May 2021, 03:12

I feel that the position of 」 symbol is inappropriate. This is one of the symbols for brackets in Japan. It should be treated like any other parenthesis symbol. It should be aligned to the left.

PRIPARA_PLAYER

05 May 2021, 03:20

Zed wrote:
05 May 2021, 00:49
JIS punctuation alignment.png

Blue : bottom left justified
Green : vertically centered, horizontally centererd?
Purple : top right justified?
Red : vertically centered ?, right justified?

I think I have things correct but IBM does not agree. They seem to put the red and purple symbols left justified.
This is something where modern keyboards aren't entirely in agreement. IBM did left alignment and Lenovo still does, Realforce I believe does middle alignment, and some other companies do right. In this case my preference is definitely for left alignment to match IBM/Lenovo.

User avatar
Zed

05 May 2021, 04:03

PRIPARA_PLAYER wrote:
05 May 2021, 03:20
Zed wrote:
05 May 2021, 00:49
JIS punctuation alignment.png

Blue : bottom left justified
Green : vertically centered, horizontally centererd?
Purple : top right justified?
Red : vertically centered ?, right justified?

I think I have things correct but IBM does not agree. They seem to put the red and purple symbols left justified.
This is something where modern keyboards aren't entirely in agreement. IBM did left alignment and Lenovo still does, Realforce I believe does middle alignment, and some other companies do right. In this case my preference is definitely for left alignment to match IBM/Lenovo.
:Dön: wrote:
05 May 2021, 03:12
I feel that the position of 」 symbol is inappropriate. This is one of the symbols for brackets in Japan. It should be treated like any other parenthesis symbol. It should be aligned to the left.
Thanks! I'll move things to the left to match IBM.

User avatar
Zed

05 May 2021, 06:09

I was thinking that perhaps we should go with a Modern and Vintage style Japanese layout to make everyone happy. What do you think? Vintage Tab key could be made more vintage (double arrow style) but I'm not a fan. All 3 bottom row options included with each set. New font shown.
JIS Modern.png
JIS Modern.png (246.53 KiB) Viewed 471 times
JIS Vintage.png
JIS Vintage.png (240.22 KiB) Viewed 471 times

PRIPARA_PLAYER

05 May 2021, 08:30

Zed wrote:
05 May 2021, 06:09
I was thinking that perhaps we should go with a Modern and Vintage style Japanese layout to make everyone happy. What do you think? Vintage Tab key could be made more vintage (double arrow style) but I'm not a fan. All 3 bottom row options included with each set. New font shown.

JIS Modern.png

JIS Vintage.png
If you can make both then I'd very happily take a row 1 vintage. Regarding tab, I quite like the 003 tab that has two arrows and no letters on it.

The new font and left alignment look great!

User avatar
:Dön:

05 May 2021, 09:17

I am glad that the Japanese was well placed. :)
As a Japanese person, I feel that the tab key is the standard style of a letter and two arrows.
By the way, the most common 5576 style is a01, not the c01, 003, etc. that you are referring to. For the Japanese, the a01 is the standard when it comes to IBM keyboards.

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