F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards

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Chekonjak

23 Jul 2021, 04:05

My Model F arrived without the space bar. It was a return I think but according to the description should have included a full set of caps.

“I am helping to sell a customer's keyboard: the Ultra Compact Case Model F Keyboard F62 Kishsaver, configured with HHKB Style Split Right Shift and standard 2U Backspace and a low serial.

Included will be a set of brand new Model F keys with the 6 key HHKB add on set (not pictured). You will install the keys (keys will not be installed). No new Model F box or packaging will be included - will be packed with generic packaging.”

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Ultra-Compact- ... 632-2357-0

Also there appears to be a height differential from the right side of the keyboard to the left. I can see more of the switch post from the top of the keyboard on the far left than the far right. I’ll try opening it later to see if some screws need to be tightened but I wanted to post here first to make sure I’m not shooting first and asking questions later.

EDIT: Joe sent out a replacement space bar! Will update this post.

EDIT2: First aid kit arrived without the bumpers but the spacebar showed with it and it works great. Now I just need to fix the Escape key and it'll be perfect.
Last edited by Chekonjak on 30 Jul 2021, 09:49, edited 2 times in total.

TheSMFK

25 Jul 2021, 19:06

I received my F77 just the other day and was super excited. I had successfully flashed the EEPROM using FLIP and VIA but, then I received my Solenoid and Controller in the mail and decided to mess with it again...

Long story short; My computer recognizes I have the BRAND NEW MODEL F KEYBOARD F77 plugged in but, it is not recognizing any keypresses. I can only see any action from the board when I'm in VIA, in the Key Tester and the Test Matrix is turned on, otherwise it does nothing.

Please tell me I didn't destroy this thing already, I can't get the keyboard in BootLoader mode and FLIP doesn't recognize the USB Device anymore.

Thank you for any assistance you can provide, I'm really more of a mechanically-inclined person than a driver/flashing/code guy.

Ellipse

25 Jul 2021, 19:38

TheSMFK please follow my firmware video linked to in the manual on the project web site to restore everything to the factory default non-Via firmware and proceed from there. You may need to short PROG on the controller to enter bootloader mode - follow the manual for instructions (important not to short it for more than a half second or so after plugging in the keyboard). If you have Via or the pandrew utility open on signal level monitor, keypresses may not be recognized outside of the open utility programs so I would close them all out, unplug and plug back in.

Thanks Heisenberg122 for your JIS updates.

knight of zero

25 Jul 2021, 20:43

Are all troubleshooting requests to go in this one thread or should I open a new thread?

Is there a known mod to fix tight USB on the f62?
I had to shave down the USB cable on the keyboard side on my f62s. It was taking so much force I was concerned I would significantly shorten the connector life span.

Is there any risk of losing some shielding and getting ghost keystrokes because of that? I didn't notice any shielding material in the shavings but who knows what color the shielding is now.

KEYMAP question -
Any highly habituated EMACS users here?
is there a good keymap for emacs users? I'm very VERY used to having control keys on both sides.

mrprofessor

25 Jul 2021, 22:44

knight of zero wrote:
25 Jul 2021, 20:43

KEYMAP question -
Any highly habituated EMACS users here?
is there a good keymap for emacs users? I'm very VERY used to having control keys on both sides.
Well I mapped my Caps lock to CTRL. Before Emacs It was mapped to Backspace.

And I use Evil mode, so that significantly reduces the use of CTRL keys.

Ellipse

26 Jul 2021, 18:37

As the Brand New Model F Keyboards continue to be mailed out I wanted to share another factory video. This video shows how the top inner assembly steel plates are laser cut. This is the first step of the process, before they are bent to shape and then finally powdercoated. As you can tell, each hole is done one at a time so it is a relatively long process for thousands of keyboards.

The remaining stuff for those who chose the separate shipping option is expected to start going out in a month or two.
knight of zero if you are talking about the compact cases, you may consider opening up the keyboard to adjust the controller and make it more parallel to the case plates (push down all along the area where the ribbon cable is soldered). I personally test each compact keyboard to make sure the supplied cables can be removed and inserted. Third party cables may be too large and are not recommended.

User avatar
ddrfraser1

26 Jul 2021, 19:39

Wow.

Telebyte

26 Jul 2021, 20:02

My keyboards arrived, a black Ultra Compact F62 with unprinted keys and a F77 in off-white, both in perfect condition, even the boxes were undamaged. I had to reseat two keys and a space bar which turned out to be easier than I thought. All keys are registering fine. Customizing the layout is still to be done.

The sticker on the back of the F77 is peeling off on one side, though, so I will have to send it back. No, seriously, thanks, well worth a wait!

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webwit
Wild Duck

26 Jul 2021, 20:36

?

User avatar
ironicmoustache

27 Jul 2021, 03:12

So after nearly two months of my F77 being in customs limbo, the post finally called me and said they "didn't get" my email with all the required info for clearance, despite knowing the date I sent it. Wonderful.

Probably will finally get it in the next week or two. Hopefully?

Ellipse

30 Jul 2021, 02:35

The first new production XT foam has arrived!

Besides almost everything being an exact reproduction of the original, even with the same type of foam material and similar dark gray color, there were two changes made - one, the removal of the vestigial foam covering part of the attached controller, and two, the pin registration holes were changed from 1/8" to 3/32" to provide an ever so slightly tighter contamination shield for the PCB.

As noted earlier I purchased tooling for the XT foam recently and started taking orders for the foam for delivery later this year. It's a small batch - not sure if any will be left by the time they arrive in stock.

From the latest factory video I posted on the project's YouTube channel:
"As the Brand New Model F Keyboards continue to be mailed out I wanted to share another factory video. Still time to customize your Brand New Model F Keyboard and order add-on accessories (like the First Aid Kit, extra key sets, etc.) at www.ModelFKeyboards.com

This video shows how the inner foam is stamped to create all the super-precise holes for the barrels and top inner assembly tabs. You can then see a photo of the bottom of the stamping tool (basically sharp metal in the outline of all the barrels etc.), and finally a photo of the finished product. The machine that evenly applies the stamping pressure is enormous! You only see a tiny part of the machine in this video."

Top (original) and bottom (new) XT inner foam:
2021-07-29_20-03-03.jpg
2021-07-29_20-03-03.jpg (327.08 KiB) Viewed 1782 times
ironicmoustache please do tell us more about the customs process in your country if you don't mind. Do you have to pick up the parcel in person or can everything be done online including the documentation submissions you mentioned?

koziserek

30 Jul 2021, 17:25

Hello,

Just received my Model F and seven keys don't work : (((
2, QW, AS, ZX.
Can somebody advise which point requires re-soldering? I find the diagram quite confusing.

User avatar
ironicmoustache

30 Jul 2021, 17:27

Ellipse wrote:
30 Jul 2021, 02:35
ironicmoustache please do tell us more about the customs process in your country if you don't mind. Do you have to pick up the parcel in person or can everything be done online including the documentation submissions you mentioned?
Usually it's possible to go pick a package up at the international hub and get the package out within an hour or two, but Covid-19 means it's an online process now. Email in some details and the receipt/invoice and wait for them to get back to you, etc.

I got a call from customs today, though. The keyboard will be at my local post office in a few days, where I can pay the customs duty and pick it up. Duty was much lower than I expected, too, which is nice.

FedEx/UPS will clear parcels through customs and charge you (plus a not-insignificant service fee) once they deliver; however since my F77 ended up making its way to Malaysia via USPS that of course wasn't going to happen.

User avatar
darkcruix

30 Jul 2021, 20:29

koziserek wrote:
30 Jul 2021, 17:25
Hello,

Just received my Model F and seven keys don't work : (((
2, QW, AS, ZX.
Can somebody advise which point requires re-soldering? I find the diagram quite confusing.
Screen Shot 2021-07-30 at 8.28.06 PM.png
Screen Shot 2021-07-30 at 8.28.06 PM.png (66.91 KiB) Viewed 1614 times
I'd check Pin 14/15/16

Also, try to remove the case and test without the case. Maybe it is just a short.

User avatar
Pete

30 Jul 2021, 22:05

darkcruix wrote:
30 Jul 2021, 20:29
koziserek wrote:
30 Jul 2021, 17:25
Hello,

Just received my Model F and seven keys don't work : (((
2, QW, AS, ZX.?
Screen Shot 2021-07-30 at 8.28.06 PM.png
I'd check Pin 14/15/16

Also, try to remove the case and test without the case. Maybe it is just a short.
Is there any chance it could just be the firmware? When I was fiddling with the threshold value on the older xwhatsit firmware I would get sets of keys that would not register if the value was too high IIRC.

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darkcruix

31 Jul 2021, 09:04

Pete wrote:
30 Jul 2021, 22:05
darkcruix wrote:
30 Jul 2021, 20:29
koziserek wrote:
30 Jul 2021, 17:25
Hello,

Just received my Model F and seven keys don't work : (((
2, QW, AS, ZX.?
Screen Shot 2021-07-30 at 8.28.06 PM.png
I'd check Pin 14/15/16

Also, try to remove the case and test without the case. Maybe it is just a short.
Is there any chance it could just be the firmware? When I was fiddling with the threshold value on the older xwhatsit firmware I would get sets of keys that would not register if the value was too high IIRC.
I believe QMK is pre-installed and it sorts the pads into bins automatically and find the best threshold. The likelihood is very low that it is a firmware problem. I'd just remove the case and plug in the keyboard first to see if it makes a difference. If it doesn't I'd check the solder joints for the columns mentioned above.

Liopleus

04 Aug 2021, 08:01

I just received my compact F77 with HHKB shift and backspace and it feels amazing to type on. The build quality is also amazing.

However, after flashing the VIA firmware, I can't assign keys to the 2 keys besides the up arrow key (the ones not assigned anything out of the box due to me choosing the 1st option for the right side block).

I can assign all other keys in the VIA utility without problem so the flashing is probably done properly.

Does anyone else encounter similar issue and have a solution for it?

Thanks in advance.

Edit: just solved it with flashing the firmware with 0-9 right side block. Seems the firmware with PrintScr has those 2 keys permanent disabled.

Jan Pospisil

04 Aug 2021, 10:11

Zed wrote:
20 Apr 2021, 21:32
Jan Pospisil wrote:
20 Apr 2021, 21:18
depletedvespene wrote:
20 Apr 2021, 21:03


If you're using Windows, that O.S. supports three different variations on the Czech layout: (vanilla), "QWERTY" and "programmers". Which of these looks closest to what you use?

http://kbdlayout.info/kbdcz
http://kbdlayout.info/kbdcz1
http://kbdlayout.info/kbdcz2
Right, pretty sure it's the first one, kbdcz. I was confused by how many symbols there were, but yeah. It includes the symbols you can get via ALT+ as well as non-capitalized-non-accented letters, which typically aren't printed on the caps.
(which are, I am just realizing, front printed in the IBM PDF, but some are in wrong positions)
If front printing was possible, having them in the correct position (as in the kbdcz layout scheme) would be cool. Or on the cap itself like the Ms had it, that would work as well.

(edit: Sorry for complicating this so much, this is way deeper than I assumed.)
No worries and no real rush to decide. I still have a few other languages to do before I get to Czech. Over on geekhack, there is another request that came in today for Czech and he is talking about "Peacock" and Modern layouts. Depletedvespene, where do these fit in the world of Czech layouts? I have not had the time today to get into the differences and variations.
Zed, was there any final consensus on the Czech layout?
(with the other interested people on Geekhack or here)

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ironicmoustache

04 Aug 2021, 16:57

I picked up my F77 earlier today, and beyond what seems to be a mix-up with the HHKB keycaps (which I've emailed Ellipse about), I couldn't be happier with the board. It's amazing. Maybe the F XT I was using before was a bit of a dud, but this feels both snappier and smoother and is an absolute joy to type on.

Great to have a spacebar that doesn't wreck my thumbs, either!

An F62 next? Who knows, maybe...

Gurbsordidity

06 Aug 2021, 03:18

F77 came in the mail yesterday. After five hours of reviewing documentation and reseating springs, four of my five problem keys are working more or less reliably, but one stubborn holdout forced me to realize my keyboard has a serious mechanical fault. Putting it under a flashlight revealed the flipper is out of place:
Displaced flipper
Displaced flipper
Displaced_flipper_20210805_214830.jpg (2.45 MiB) Viewed 894 times
I'll need to buy tools to repair this. I also lack expertise. The video guide Brand New Model F Instructional Video 2: Opening up the keyboard inner assembly shows only an incidental view of the flipper assembly, and photos in section 2.14 of Darkcruix's excellent manual show none of it.

Can anyone point me in the right direction? It might be a very simple procedure. But if it isn't, my lack of resources and inexperience with electronics repair have me wondering if I should just bite the bullet and pay to send the keyboard back to Ellipse for repair. Better that than to wreck an otherwise good keyboard.

User avatar
Bjerrk

06 Aug 2021, 07:27

Gurbsordidity wrote:
06 Aug 2021, 03:18
F77 came in the mail yesterday. After five hours of reviewing documentation and reseating springs, four of my five problem keys are working more or less reliably, but one stubborn holdout forced me to realize my keyboard has a serious mechanical fault. Putting it under a flashlight revealed the flipper is out of place:

Displaced_flipper_20210805_214830.jpg

I'll need to buy tools to repair this. I also lack expertise.
I had a similar problem once and managed to wiggle the flipper back into place from "up top" (i.e. without opening the keyboard). Make sure to only use implements which won't scratch anything.
I can't promise that it'll work for you, or take any responsibility, but at least the flipper could be relatively easily dislodged from under the barrel. This was not on a reproduction Model F, though, so the assembly could be tighter here.

Gurbsordidity

06 Aug 2021, 08:06

Thanks for the suggestion, Bjerrk, but this thing is jammed tight. Either it was overlooked in QC (doubtful) or the KB suffered a huge blow during shipping that knocked it loose and immediately clamped down again (also doubtful - packaging is not damaged, the styrofoam should have absorbed the impact, and no other flipper seems to have been affected). I'm worried about the pressure of the displaced flipper on the underlying capacitive PCB.

User avatar
Weezer

06 Aug 2021, 08:42

Gurbsordidity wrote:
06 Aug 2021, 03:18
It might be a very simple procedure.
When that crap happens on my model Fs i just use some tweezers to pull the flipper back into place.

The flippers get jammed up like that during the assembly of the two halves of the barrel plate if the flipper isn't centered properly. It was likely overlooked by QA testers

Gurbsordidity

06 Aug 2021, 09:30

Weezer wrote:
06 Aug 2021, 08:42
When that crap happens on my model Fs i just use some tweezers to pull the flipper back into place.
Appreciate the input. I tried, but the force required to move the flipper would snap the nub off before it ever moves. I'll have to open the case if I'm going to fix it myself.

I'd love to hear of the gotchas - common mistakes and risks - when taking apart the backplate and putting it all together again. The video for opening the case makes the process pretty clear, but it's intimidating and looks risky, and I'll have to spend money on tools I may not use again for a long time. I'd also love to see pictures or descriptions of how the flippers are seated - the video I linked to above shows the finished flipper assembly, but not how the flippers are installed to it.

With that much information I could decide whether to ship the KB back to Ellipse for repair or to risk trying it myself.

User avatar
Wazrach

06 Aug 2021, 10:32

Gurbsordidity wrote:
06 Aug 2021, 09:30
Weezer wrote:
06 Aug 2021, 08:42
When that crap happens on my model Fs i just use some tweezers to pull the flipper back into place.
Appreciate the input. I tried, but the force required to move the flipper would snap the nub off before it ever moves. I'll have to open the case if I'm going to fix it myself.

I'd love to hear of the gotchas - common mistakes and risks - when taking apart the backplate and putting it all together again. The video for opening the case makes the process pretty clear, but it's intimidating and looks risky, and I'll have to spend money on tools I may not use again for a long time. I'd also love to see pictures or descriptions of how the flippers are seated - the video I linked to above shows the finished flipper assembly, but not how the flippers are installed to it.

With that much information I could decide whether to ship the KB back to Ellipse for repair or to risk trying it myself.
It's actually not that intimidating. I can help you with the process if you like. I use a bar clamp to slide the plates apart and back together. I also use foldable paper clips to keep the plates together so that the bar clamp can slide the backplate into the tabs of the barrel frame. These tools are not expensive:

www.amazon.co.uk/Hilka-64020724-Quick-R ... 4f2e1370d4

https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B00 ... UTF8&psc=1

The only other tools you need is a screwdriver to open the case and a pair of pliers to separate the one tab that is normally crimped over the backplate. Do not mess with the other tabs at all, unless they are not aligned properly.

User avatar
Weezer

06 Aug 2021, 12:28

Gurbsordidity wrote:
06 Aug 2021, 09:30

I'd love to hear of the gotchas - common mistakes and risks - when taking apart the backplate and putting it all together again.
The most common mistake I see is people monkeying the two halves open and spilling all the springs everywhere. That's also the biggest risk imo. I'd be sure that you use your dominant hand to mallet the two sides open and your other hand to hold the two halves together so when they come apart you can hold them together until the two halves are horizontal. That will save you a lot of time.

I personally don't use any clamps for reassembly. In my opinion they inhibit the lateral movement of the two halves and I'll usually just grab a friend to mallet while I hold the two halves together. That probably requires a bit of strength though. In general it's up to you how to proceed but it's very hard to permanently damage one of these keyboards because it's such a well engineered design with such solid materials. The worst that might happen is the off chance you might break a flipper or something or have a bit of a time getting it back together.

Gurbsordidity

06 Aug 2021, 13:02

@Wazrach @Weezer

Thanks, guys. That's reassuring. If my worries about breaking off clips or anything else are unfounded, I'll pick up the tools and try it myself in the next few days.

User avatar
Wazrach

06 Aug 2021, 13:17

Weezer wrote:
06 Aug 2021, 12:28
I personally don't use any clamps for reassembly. In my opinion they inhibit the lateral movement of the two halves and I'll usually just grab a friend to mallet while I hold the two halves together.
That's why I use paperclips - they are not too strong as to prevent the plates from sliding together. I think they're ideal for boards like these where the foam has already compressed sufficiently so there's nothing fighting the plates apart. You certainly don't need a mallet for these either, the bar clamp is strong enough for the same reasons.

It gets a bit trickier when doing foam replacements. I like to think the tabs provide the compression, so the only goal of the paper clips is to help the tabs of the barrel frame slightly bite the backplate, after which it is easier to use a mallet to tap them into place.

User avatar
Weezer

06 Aug 2021, 15:15

I use the rubber mallet in lieu of a bar clamp since I don't own one. It's just a light tap from the rubber end.

User avatar
phughes

06 Aug 2021, 15:58

On my Model F XT I had to use G-clamps, a block of wood and a mallet to slide the two plates together.

I've used less force splitting the cylinder head off an engine block!

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