F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards

Ellipse

08 Sep 2021, 04:53

Thanks for posting your new Model F photo PhineasRex! Please do read the manual - troubleshooting section as the fix for stuck keys is noted there.

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Pete

08 Sep 2021, 10:11

PhineasRex wrote:
08 Sep 2021, 04:16

One question for Ellipse: will the front-print and custom keycaps be shipping separately? They were included in my invoice but not the order.
Are the front-print keycaps ready for shipping yet?

I think it was mentioned that keycaps for those of us who requested split shipping would go out at the end of September.I’m looking forward to getting keycaps.

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snacksthecat
✶✶✶✶

08 Sep 2021, 16:25

Ellipse wrote:
07 Sep 2021, 21:46
snacksthecat wrote:
07 Sep 2021, 05:11
Wanted to share the 3D model that I made from photos of my F77.

Link to the 3D model on Sketchfab:
https://skfb.ly/opPQz
Interesting! The page notes that the 3d model used 391 photos. Did you have an automated machine to take the photos?
I've gotten it semi automated, which is to say that I have a remote for the camera in one hand and another remote to rotate the keyboard in different poses (similar to a turntable but I'm using an electric camera pan/tilt head since it's skinnier and obscures less of the keyboard).

I'm OK with this workflow, even though it's a bit tedious. I have been able to do a proof of concept to fully automate the snap-rotate-snap, where an Arduino is controlling both the camera and the rotating pan/tilt head. But I like to make sure the board is properly lit from all sides for each shot as well as the framing/focus in order to get a good result. Here's a gif of how I captured the photos:

Image

Edit: BTW here is the background image I used on sketchfab in case anyone would like it:
Image

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toidbb

09 Sep 2021, 19:35

Received my F66 order.

Was able to resolve all the number of keys not coming through by following the troubleshooting guide. I still have one issue with the H key specifically.

I have tried the spring troubleshooting, but when the keycap is on it will not register. I can feel the spring buckling correctly under the keycap. The H key will register with the cap off and pushing on the spring. Although it does not seem to be registering in certain position of the lever under the spring, as if it falls all the way back when holding the keyboard space side up.

Any other thoughts on what to try? Do I need to move to disassemble the keyboard?

Thanks

Ellipse

10 Sep 2021, 05:32

toidbb did you review the QC secrets video linked to in the manual on the project web site? It notes all the steps needed, as long as the flipper with spring can move freely and are not stuck. One of the last resort steps noted is to flip the spring upside down, noting the correct 12 o'clock orientation of the end of the spring, and finally to replace the spring with another one.

knight of zero

10 Sep 2021, 14:23

I'm looking to get some solenoids for my compacts.

Is there a subforum or a site showing just the solenoids and
how folks have mounted them & run the cables out of the compact case?

spear

12 Sep 2021, 01:09

I received my ultra compact F77 (split right shift, full backspace) a few days ago. (Thank, Ellipse!) I re-seated a couple of springs and flashed new QMK firmware to change the layout (and thanks to those who've streamlined and documented this process). I have otherwise enjoyed using it -- it certainly recaptures the typing feel I've been missing since I used the PC XT/AT keyboards so many years ago.

I somehow missed the option of ordering with a shorter space bar and extra modifier key, so I'd like to try and do it myself. I've spent the last few days catching up on this thread and I think I understand the process of disassembling the barrel plate sandwich and adding the extra flipper and barrel. (The videos and the reference manual help a lot.)

If I order an extra (short) space bar, does it come with a stabilizer wire? I understand it might be a tight fit with an extra 1.5U key and that there'll be a gap with a 1.25U key. Anything else I need to look out for?

Ellipse

12 Sep 2021, 17:21

Here is a great video and instructional post on someone's trackpoint mod for their Brand New Model F keyboard:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/e/2P ... SDdvzF/pub

knight of zero nothing yet but please do let us know if you end up doing this. My guess would be that you can install the L bracket in a way that allows you to screw in the L bracket to one of the case holes. Probably would need a longer T8 bolt to account for the increased thickness, plus taller bumpers. Another idea is to attach it as shown to one of the case holes: https://imgur.com/a/dHS1FwD

spear yes confirmed for all the space bars.

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TNT

12 Sep 2021, 17:31

Haha, that's awesome, I love the idea! Like the person said, a little makeshift, and it doesn't look vintage enough for my taste, but great job anyway.

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zrrion

12 Sep 2021, 19:43

I think using beige caps on the box navies would help a lot to sell the vintage look. It might also look less conspicuous with some of those low pro click bar switches? don't know how easy it is to get keycaps for those though so maybe not

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Pete

14 Sep 2021, 00:37

Ellipse wrote:
12 Sep 2021, 17:21
Here is a great video and instructional post on someone's trackpoint mod for their Brand New Model F keyboard:
I’ve been thinking of a row of programmable keys along the top just above the horizontal bit of metal. I wonder if there is a low-profile USB bar of key switches that could simply be rested there?

Gurbsordidity

14 Sep 2021, 04:32

Changing key layout of an unresponsive Model F on Debian 11 (“Bullseye”)

Putting this here in case it helps anybody else.

My Model F became unresponsive on August 14 after I botched a layout change with firmware. Finally got it working last night after weeks of avoidance and anxiety. The steps were straightforward in hindsight. Debian 11 computer.

First I shorted PROG with a paperclip for a split second when I first plugged the keyboard in to USB. I was surprised to see the keyboard's bootloader show up with `lsusb` after that—Lazarus come back from the dead, “Huh, that actually worked”, “Iʼll be damned", etc.

I had downloaded a hex file (“Firmware”) that I generated on the QMK beta website¹ and I ran this sequence of commands:

Code: Select all

sudo dfu-programmer atmega32u2 erase
sudo dfu-programmer atmega32u2 flash my.hex
sudo dfu-programmer atmega32u2 start
Then I unplugged the keyboard and plugged it in again. Thatʼs it.

Tom Wong-Cornall recommends `reset` instead of `start` on that last line, but I don't know if that matters. What I did worked. Ellipse recommends `launch` instead, but that verb is not available on Debian's distribution of dfu-programmer.

Relieved that I finally get to use the thing with my preferred layout. The bonus prize is that I learned how to customize my layout if I want to try some things. If you like fine writing instruments, you'll be happy the rest of your years with one of these Model Fs and a Lamy 2000 fountain pen.

Thanks for your help with it, everybody. What a time to be alive.

—————————————————————

¹The QMK beta website threw me off because all its keyboards have an extra key left of the enter key. The hex file worked anyway.

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raoulduke-esq

19 Sep 2021, 18:44

Wow…. If dealing with all of our drama on DT wasn’t enough, how much worse must it be to deal with the people of CraigsList??


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Pete

20 Sep 2021, 01:15

raoulduke-esq wrote:
19 Sep 2021, 18:44
Wow…. If dealing with all of our drama on DT wasn’t enough, how much worse must it be to deal with the people of CraigsList??
Is that someone reselling Model F keyboards?

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raoulduke-esq

20 Sep 2021, 01:41

Pete wrote:
20 Sep 2021, 01:15
Is that someone reselling Model F keyboards?
The instruction is to search for the website or email for more details, so I’m going to guess it’s not a reseller.

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Shifty

20 Sep 2021, 07:07

So I had to go with a black on black F62 after seeing pictures of someone's black 4704, and I do not regret the decision.

Image

Damn, that's a good looking keyboard.

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Pete

20 Sep 2021, 10:17

Shifty wrote:
20 Sep 2021, 07:07
So I had to go with a black on black F62 after seeing pictures of someone's black 4704, and I do not regret the decision.

Damn, that's a good looking keyboard.
That looks seriously good.

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Muirium
µ

20 Sep 2021, 12:13

No bad. But the feeble modern cable doesn't do it for me. Needs that special something extra.

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Shifty

20 Sep 2021, 13:17

Muirium wrote:
20 Sep 2021, 12:13
No bad. But the feeble modern cable doesn't do it for me. Needs that special something extra.
Yes, the cable is definitely the weakest point. I do have a spare AT cable in ok condition ...

Jan Pospisil

20 Sep 2021, 13:35

Some time ago I posted a link to a vendor selling thick coiled cables that should be compatible. (zapcables.com)

And I gotta say, as much as I don't care for blank caps, the all black combo DOES look pretty cool.

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Muirium
µ

20 Sep 2021, 13:46

It does. It's the definitive Black Kish look.

Though I'd be sorely tempted to try brighter, legended caps. Not because I need them, but because I just love the look.

Naturally, extra points if you can source white on black…

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Pete

21 Sep 2021, 01:39

Muirium wrote:
20 Sep 2021, 13:46

Naturally, extra points if you can source white on black…
I wonder if white transfer lettering would work, and how long it would last?

Something like this: https://pcbsupplies.com/dry-transfer-le ... -letraset/

Probably would wear off quickly unfortunately.

NathanA

23 Sep 2021, 03:15

Recently took delivery of two F77s (both classic/zinc, one beige, one black). The black looks SO good in person. Beige also looks good but mine does have some imperfections in the powdercoating (one minor chip already visible out-of-the-box, some sections look shiny while others look dull, some areas have an especially noticeably thin layer/application, etc.).

Overall, however, I'm a very happy camper. The actual key action is fantastic. These keyboards are works of art, and the love and attention to detail that Ellipse poured into the project tangibly oozes out of every part. I am truly in awe.

Now time to sink my teeth into QMK. :geek:

After only spending a little time with them, I'll observe that one (IMO) flaw in the classic case design is how the bottom lip of the case is more squared off (even relative to other parts of the case), which I find causes it dig into one's palms slightly and makes it more uncomfortable than it really needs to be. But IBM came up with this design, and this was intended to be a faithful recreation of that design, so this is in no way Ellipse's "fault" (if it can even be called that). I personally think IBM should have made the original 4704 keyboards with a bottom lip curve of at least the same radius as the curves on the other 3 wide edges of the case.

I did take a Model M and line it up with the F77 on a flat surface to compare the side profiles of both, and confirmed that all of the keys on the rows that they have in common with each other are at exactly identical heights & that the backplates between both have identical curvatures. So though the keys on the F77 are in fact *not* actually higher than they are on the M, they *seem* slightly higher just due to the difference in heights between the bottom edges of the respective cases, and the M is just that much more comfortable to type on due to the bottom edge of its case sitting even lower & the gentler curve of that bottom edge on the M.

I haven't had time yet to really use it at length, so this may not end up proving to be that big of a deal long-term in actual use. And I can probably put some kind of sloped wrist rest immediately below the keyboard to help compensate anyway.

One thing I'd love to see is a visual comparison of the side profiles of the classic vs. ultra compact 'boards, which I don't think any photos I've seen to-date has attempted to show. I'd never seen an original 4704 'board in person, and just looking at the pictures before ordering, given its boxy design, I was concerned that the ultra compact would actually suffer from this very problem while the classic case *wouldn't*, because the bottom edge of the classic case *appeared* to be lower than that of the ultra compact. As a result, I decided not to order any ultra compacts. I'm wondering, though, if this is merely an optical illusion due to the fact that the classic case is lower just below the bottom row of keys than the back of the case is. Are the key heights between the classic and ultra compact in fact exactly identical?

EDIT: Now that I've got the keyboard set up in a more, uh...ergonomically-acceptable & permanent space, I'm finding that this is MUUUUCH less of a problem than initial testing led me to believe. :oops: No discomfort to speak of. Would still be interested in seeing a comparison between the classic and ultra-compact cases from an ergonomics perspective.

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darkcruix

26 Sep 2021, 12:54

I wanted to share two quick photos taken with my phone.
This is the absolutely stunning Carolina Blue Ultra Compact keyboard. I chose to use Mopar Blue keys combined with Dark Gray. I am not sure, yet, about the keycap colors, but I have ... options. More to that a little later, when I have a bit more time (including better photos).
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Palatino

26 Sep 2021, 15:41

That’s certainly a lot of blue. I like blue, but not in such volumes. All grey and black caps, maybe? It’s certainly very striking - and great that there are so many options. Are the spacebars on these reproductions well weighted, unlike the monstrous XT original?

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Muirium
µ

26 Sep 2021, 16:31

I can only imagine a rhapsody in blue like that alongside my not so mellow yellow Ducky some years ago:

Image

russypt

26 Sep 2021, 17:12

Palatino wrote:
26 Sep 2021, 15:41
That’s certainly a lot of blue. I like blue, but not in such volumes. All grey and black caps, maybe? It’s certainly very striking - and great that there are so many options. Are the spacebars on these reproductions well weighted, unlike the monstrous XT original?
Yeah they're closer to Model M weight, maybe even a little lighter (I don't have a measuring device). I don't have an F-XT but it is way easier to actuate than my F-AT.

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Muirium
µ

26 Sep 2021, 17:21

AT and XT spacebar are just about the same. OG Kishsaver is light like a Model M. So the light weighting on these is more in keeping with the style.

That said, I actually quite like heaving a heavy spacebar on a Model F. Feels extra luxurious for some reason.

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Palatino

26 Sep 2021, 17:51

I know what you mean. I've remapped Right Shift to spacebar, but now and again I do like to hit the actual spacebar just to register a minor tremor on the local quake sensors.

Ellipse

26 Sep 2021, 18:34

Pete regarding a bar of MX type keys on top of the keyboard, I believe Adafruit offers these with various MX options.

Thanks for the details and recommendations Gurbsordidity.

Nice photos Shifty and darkcruix! Everyone please keep them coming! Hope all the new Model F Keyboards are still running well.

NathanA the angle of the interior plate should be nearly identical between the zinc and ultra compact cases - that's how it was designed - to be close to the Model M and original Model F angles.

As an update I am still going through some more keyboard shipments and expect to start mailing out the split shipment keys later next month - later than my expectation of starting this month. The factory is still working on the international sets and extra keys. Zed and I have been reviewing and approving the sets as photos of the sample sets have been sent to me by the factory.

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