F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards

Ellipse

26 Jul 2022, 04:59

Arkku nice photo and setup!

NYC meetup?

Just reposting my note about asking if anyone is up for hosting a small new Model F / new Beam spring meetup in NYC in September or October. Please do PM me if you can help. It would be good for folks to be able to try out the new Model F and beam springs.

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darkcruix

26 Jul 2022, 20:33

Arkku wrote:
25 Jul 2022, 18:48
Also received my black + dark gray F62 now. (I made a DIY ISO Enter hack, but hopefully the actual ISO Enter will be available in dark gray later.)
...
What a beauty this is ... my Industrial gray F62 (roughly same layout) comes not close to this one. Really nice choice of colors ...

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darkcruix

26 Jul 2022, 20:42

Ellipse wrote:
26 Jul 2022, 04:59
Arkku nice photo and setup!

NYC meetup?

Just reposting my note about asking if anyone is up for hosting a small new Model F / new Beam spring meetup in NYC in September or October. Please do PM me if you can help. It would be good for folks to be able to try out the new Model F and beam springs.
I'd enjoy it - but I can't say with certainty, I will be there as I need to travel across the pond. October would be a better date at least for me.

Arkku

28 Jul 2022, 14:17

Does anyone know of nice (e.g., braided) but cheap USB-C to USB-C cables that work with the ultra compact keyboards (i.e., connector fits through the opening)? None of the USB-C to USB-C cables that I have seem to work, instead I must have a USB-A adapter somewhere in between, presumably to degrade the connection so that it doesn't try anything too fancy for the simple microcontroller to handle.

(I also wonder whether disconnecting some pins from the USB-C connector might work to the same effect? TBH I have not looked too closely at USB-C specs, but I'm sure the Atmega32U2 can't handle anything beyond the old USB 2.0.)

User avatar
Muirium
µ

28 Jul 2022, 14:42

I've never had luck with USB C on Teensy (32u4) either. And that's something I've wired a couple of times myself: a Teensy 2 with a male mini-USB to female USB C adapter, installed inside an AT keyboard. Plugging a USB C to C cable into it (to connect to my Mac) never works. Plugging a USB C to A cable (to connect to a USB A hub) does work, even for flashing firmware. There's something dumb about USB C's backwards compatibility.

Mind, USB C itself is a mess.

Arkku

28 Jul 2022, 16:51

After a bit more research, I suppose this might have to do with identifying the device end of the symmetrical USB-C cable. The USB-A adapter has to be on the computer end, i.e., it won't work on the keyboard end. I wonder if the properties of this adapter would be possible to recreate by adding some resistors to the controller inside the keyboard… Unfortunately the PCB-mounted USB-C connector has really tight pin spacing, so seems a bit hard to do after the fact.

hugh31098

30 Jul 2022, 18:20

Hi everyone, just received my F77 and finished setting it up.

Everything seems to work fine. The 'Via F77 - ANSI-ISO - PrintScr.hex' file for some reason doesn't register 2 keys above left and right arrow, but flashing the 0-9 hex file and it works just fine, so I guess I'll just use that one and remap the key myself.

The only thing that isn't functioning right now is the solenoid. I've followed the instruction exactly and the solenoid controller does light up when pressing keys, but solenoid wasn't actuating. I've read some posts above and saw someone suggesting a bad solder joint on solenoid controller can cause the issue. Do these looks normal to you guys? Or am I encountering a different issue here? Please help!

Image
Image

Arkku

30 Jul 2022, 20:37

hugh31098 wrote:
30 Jul 2022, 18:20
Everything seems to work fine. The 'Via F77 - ANSI-ISO - PrintScr.hex' file for some reason doesn't register 2 keys above left and right arrow, but flashing the 0-9 hex file and it works just fine, so I guess I'll just use that one and remap the key myself.
I would suggest using the configurator to map the keys yourself, they are probably not configured in that pre-compiled firmware.

PRIPARA_PLAYER

31 Jul 2022, 11:10

hugh31098 wrote:
30 Jul 2022, 18:20
The only thing that isn't functioning right now is the solenoid. I've followed the instruction exactly and the solenoid controller does light up when pressing keys, but solenoid wasn't actuating. I've read some posts above and saw someone suggesting a bad solder joint on solenoid controller can cause the issue. Do these looks normal to you guys? Or am I encountering a different issue here? Please help!
I had this same issue and just had to erase the eeprom before flashing, so I'd suggested trying that.

Takashi

31 Jul 2022, 19:34

Hi! I finally got my keyboard and keys! (ordered in 2017).
However, I have already encountered my first problems. I'm trying to mount the enter key but it's not very stable, so I assume I'm supposed to put in these "stabilizers". But, however I rotate them they don't seem to fit. Only in one direction they seem to fit but then I have to push really hard... feels like it's going to break. is this how it's supposed to be?

See here:
https://ibb.co/NKgg2Lq
https://ibb.co/QQ3khGx

Takashi

31 Jul 2022, 21:46

After watching this video:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xEm2mew ... =emb_title


it seems I should put the "white thingies" inside, and it worked for all the buttons (so backspace and right shift), EXCEPT for the enter key (I have an ISO keyboard). The enter button seems to be "falling flat" and doesn't provide any feedback.
See here:
https://ibb.co/NZs5df4
https://ibb.co/8PShTf7

What did I do wrong?

Takashi

31 Jul 2022, 22:21

Ah shit, it seems that on ISO keyboards I need to use the black insert for the enter key (while the others use the white). I was looking at the video and in the video only white ones are being used, but that is for an ANSI keyboard. Now I have to disassemble the whole keyboard to get the white one out from the other side :-( I don't have any tools and tomorrow I have to travel and will be gone for a while.

Not a good start for me :-( But I guess that if I've waited for over 5 years I might just wait for another 1-2 months...

pandrew

31 Jul 2022, 23:20

Arkku wrote:
28 Jul 2022, 14:17
(I also wonder whether disconnecting some pins from the USB-C connector might work to the same effect? TBH I have not looked too closely at USB-C specs, but I'm sure the Atmega32U2 can't handle anything beyond the old USB 2.0.)
Arkku wrote:
28 Jul 2022, 16:51
I wonder if the properties of this adapter would be possible to recreate by adding some resistors to the controller inside the keyboard… Unfortunately the PCB-mounted USB-C connector has really tight pin spacing, so seems a bit hard to do after the fact.
  1. The following should make any proper USB-C-to-USB-C work (if you have this version of the PCB):
    mods_for_usb_c_to_usb_c.png
    mods_for_usb_c_to_usb_c.png (214.56 KiB) Viewed 1488 times
    The cut (with a thin exacto knife) will make sure that you don't have to lift the USB connector pin, and I think it's easier to perform a cut than to lift a pin. Soldering a thin wire to that pin will be a little harder, but I think it's doable with good soldering equipment. Be really careful not to cut into other traces.
    Instead of soldering directly to the pin, like I've shown, you might also try to just scratch the solder mask of the trace the pin is soldered to, and to solder a thin wire to the left side of where you made the cut.
  2. You may also be able to find a cheaper non-active(non-e-marked) USB-C cable that will work without modifying the controller, only if this resistor is 5.1kOhm in size (EDIT: confirmed by Arkku, that it's already 5.1kOhm):
    this_resistor.png
    this_resistor.png (13.46 KiB) Viewed 1488 times
    (I don't know what the value of this resistor is, please measure it.)
    WARNING: generally stay away from very cheap/no-name USB-C-to-USB-C cables. If they are wired incorrectly, they can kill your devices USB ports. I was only pointing out that non-active(non-e-marked) cables tend to be cheaper than active/e-marked ones. But you still want a quality cable!
  3. The following is not recommended, don't do this:
    Spoiler:
    You could also make a hacked non-compliant USB-C-to-USB-C cable by modifying a non-active(non-e-marked) USB-C cable like this:
    hacked_usbc_cable.png
    hacked_usbc_cable.png (34.49 KiB) Viewed 1488 times
    So cut the CC wire, and add an 5.1kohm resistor on one end.
    I really don't recommend doing this, just showing it for the sake of discussion. This forces the end with the resistor to be the host end of the cable. WARNING: you could kill your laptop's USB port if you do this and don't know what you're doing.
    Also definitely don't do this mod to an active cable, it would be a lot more complicated.
    In any case this only makes sense if the resistor I mentioned in point 2) is not 5.1kOhm in size, and you don't want to replace it with an 5.1kOhm one.
  4. This is probably obvious but you can also use a USB-C to OTG adapter (like you get with some phones: Example) with a USB-A to USB-C cable, if the only problem you're trying to solve is plugging the keyboard into a host that doesn't have USB-A. The only thing to keep in mind that this adapter must be on the host side, not on the keyboard side!
  5. You could also use something like this USB-C breakout board, add two 5.1kOhm resistors (CC1 to GND, and CC2 to GND), EDIT: no, 5.1k resistors are already there, you don't need to add anything to CC pins, just connect the GND/VBUS/D+/D- pins to a cut-off usb-c cable/plug (which must not have a chip in it, if you cut one off a USB-A-to-USB-C cable then there probably won't be a chip there), and hide this whole contraption in the keyboard. It's basicly the same thing as option 3) but a lot less likely to end up accidentally plugged into something else with the wrong orientation, that might die from it.
Last edited by pandrew on 15 Aug 2022, 05:34, edited 16 times in total.

pandrew

31 Jul 2022, 23:21

hugh31098 wrote:
30 Jul 2022, 18:20
the solenoid controller does light up when pressing keys, but solenoid wasn't actuating.
Make sure to add the "HPT_DWLI" key to your keymap, and press it a number of times to increment the dwell time beyond minimum.
It starts up at the minimum value initially but solenoids that are bigger than the 5251 beamspring solenoid will have a hard time clicking with a very small dwell time.

duoshock

01 Aug 2022, 12:05

Does anyone have key locked up issue? I'm using vial firmware, tried easing eeprom and still some have got key locked up every now and then.

Ellipse

01 Aug 2022, 18:11

The latest blog update has just been posted: https://www.modelfkeyboards.com/blog/

Here are the first few paragraphs from the post:
***If you have a new shipping address please do email me to let me know your order numbers and the new address. Check your order email and our email communications (if applicable) to make sure the latest address I have on file for you is the correct one. If you’re waiting on your order to ship, please check the junk mail folder for shipping confirmation emails every now and then to be safe!

(As a brief update, the container ship arrived a few months ago and I have been busy mailing out lots of keyboards and will continue to go through the backlog. I expect to finish up this month (August) with all of the remaining keyboards and other orders in the queue (as of now, all the remaining 2021 and 2022 orders). Sorry I cannot provide estimates for any particular order in the queue as noted before; please see the below posts for additional details. Since I ordered a bunch of extra keyboards, there is still time to customize your Brand New Model F Keyboard and add on accessories like the First Aid Kit for future repairs, the new solenoid driver and extra hefty solenoid, the transparent relegendable keycaps just made from new molds, extra key sets and USB cables, etc.)

So far I have mailed out 1,487 Brand New Model F Keyboards since early April; we have about 400 keyboards remaining in the backlog.

Mini-meetup in NYC – September or October? Please email me ASAP if you can offer a space

I have been generously invited to speak about the project at the NYC office of a well-known tech firm. I’d like to schedule it for a Wednesday in September or October (leaning towards October), after I’ve caught up with the backlog. Their meetup is just for company employees; I was thinking of a mini-meetup open to the public on the same day in the late afternoon.

Is anyone willing to host a mini-meetup in Manhattan that would be open to the public? The space would need tables to show off any keyboards that folks bring there.

User avatar
daedalus
Buckler Of Springs

01 Aug 2022, 19:45

Ellipse wrote:
18 Jul 2022, 04:20
daedalus there should be some ability to wobble the barrels a bit, even with most IBM Model F originals. Tightening the top inner assembly plate when it is not installed with the rest of the parts is something I have done with a large vice and has improved the sound a bit on some F107 originals formerly in my collection. Maybe adding extra scrap foam or cutting up a second F77 foam might prove more effective than making physical adjustments to the inner assembly plates, or a combination of both approaches.
Update on this: adding extra layer of foam between the barrels which were loose, and the main foam, seemed to address this problem. Thanks!

Takashi

02 Aug 2022, 13:11

Didn't have to make any travel and now I could finally disassemble the model F to get the "white filler" out of the enter ISO key! It took ages to do it but it's worth it. The keyboard looks great:

Image

However, I do have one problem. I have flashed the controller with the VIA firmware (using the YouTube manual) and used VIA to configure it. And using the keyboard tester in the VIA software there are two keys that don't seem to be working:

Image

What have I made wrong? I have re-seated the keys a couple of times, and there is no difference.
Is there maybe something wrong with the VIA software? I can't used the pandrew utility anymore as it doesn't recognize my keyboard anymore (I assume because I replaced the QMK firmware with VIA?).

Edit:
I reflashed it back to QMK and used the pandrew tool to do further tests. Using the key tester in the tool I get the same behaviour as in VIA tester:
Image

However, if I use the signal monitor, these two keys do get a signal detected when I press them:
Image

Huh? What am I doing wrong?

sedevidi

02 Aug 2022, 17:34

Takashi wrote:
02 Aug 2022, 13:11
Huh? What am I doing wrong?
IIRC, you may have used an initial firmware in which those 2 keys were not assigned, which the firmware identifies as non-existing. You thus cannot assign them later using VIA.
Just use a firmware in which all keys are assigned, say 0-9 numpad.

Takashi

02 Aug 2022, 19:38

sedevidi wrote:
02 Aug 2022, 17:34
Takashi wrote:
02 Aug 2022, 13:11
Huh? What am I doing wrong?
IIRC, you may have used an initial firmware in which those 2 keys were not assigned, which the firmware identifies as non-existing. You thus cannot assign them later using VIA.
Just use a firmware in which all keys are assigned, say 0-9 numpad.
This did it! Now my keyboard is fully operational. Thank you so much for this! :-)

Arkku

04 Aug 2022, 19:21

pandrew wrote:
31 Jul 2022, 23:20
The following should make any proper USB-C-to-USB-C work (if you have this version of the PCB):
Thank you, this information is exactly what was looking for, but didn't have time to figure out on my own! The resistor was already 5.1K, so I cut the trace and added another one as you suggested. Not the prettiest result with the hilariously large through-hole resistor next to the tiny surface-mount components, but it works.
FDEEF71D-40C4-4375-A702-55642CF8B5D2.jpeg
FDEEF71D-40C4-4375-A702-55642CF8B5D2.jpeg (1.36 MiB) Viewed 839 times

User avatar
doureios

04 Aug 2022, 23:04

sedevidi wrote:
02 Aug 2022, 17:34
Takashi wrote:
02 Aug 2022, 13:11
Huh? What am I doing wrong?
IIRC, you may have used an initial firmware in which those 2 keys were not assigned, which the firmware identifies as non-existing. You thus cannot assign them later using VIA. Just use a firmware in which all keys are assigned, say 0-9 numpad.
This is the post by pandrew that explains why the VIA firmware turns off the barrels that are flipperless by default. This thread flips pages quickly. There is a lot of good information in the previous pages.

TerminalJunkie

05 Aug 2022, 15:54

I'm worried about ripping loose the PCB-mounted USB connector on my compact F62. Has anyone found a clever solution?

Arkku

05 Aug 2022, 19:41

doureios wrote:
04 Aug 2022, 23:04
This is the post by pandrew that explains why the VIA firmware turns off the barrels that are flipperless by default.
The keys in the numpad section of the F77 do all have flippers, though. Or, at least mine did, even though the keyboard was ordered with the arrow key layout that has two blank keys. (edit: Actually, they must have flippers on all keyboards, so that they can have springs, because without springs the keycaps would not sit at the correct level.)
TerminalJunkie wrote:
05 Aug 2022, 15:54
I'm worried about ripping loose the PCB-mounted USB connector on my compact F62. Has anyone found a clever solution?
One solution would be a short extension cable, which you can tie to something inside the keyboard (similar to how the less compact keyboards have their cable; it is the same controller, after all). Or, indeed, you could convert it to a fixed cable and put some kind of strain relief in the hole (e.g., fill it with some kind of rubber putty, like Sugru if that's a thing anymore). Another strain relief solution that comes to mind is drilling a smaller hole next to the USB port opening and attaching the cable to that with a zip tie.

Personally I'm not too worried about the connector, though, since I have a bunch of microcontroller development boards and such that have been in use for years with more tugging on the cable than I would expect for the keyboard, and it has never been an issue. And the controller board is quite cheap, especially if you can replace it yourself. But of course it would be nicer to have some kind of strain relief solution...
Last edited by Arkku on 06 Aug 2022, 00:42, edited 1 time in total.

ryvnf

05 Aug 2022, 22:46

Has anyone tried putting a matte clear coat over a classic case to protect the paint from chipping? Or have any tips about using a clear coats for such application in general?

I am considering doing it to my keyboard but have no experience with it.

User avatar
Polecat

06 Aug 2022, 04:31

ryvnf wrote:
05 Aug 2022, 22:46
Has anyone tried putting a matte clear coat over a classic case to protect the paint from chipping? Or have any tips about using a clear coats for such application in general?

I am considering doing it to my keyboard but have no experience with it.
I'm about to do exactly that, based on the recommendation of another member here, on a Leading Edge case that I just painted with Rustoleum enamel. I have a can of Rustoleum matte clear on the way, and I'm hoping that matching the brand and type will ensure the paints are compatible.

I might also try it over Duplicolor vinyl and plastic paint. I painted a Multitech KB-101A case several years back using Duplicolor, with a coat of paste wax that I was hoping would protect it. That wore through on the edges after about a year of use. I got another case, painted it with Duplicolor to match the first one, but I haven't used the keyboard much, not wanting to damage the second paint job.

My suspicion is that the matte clear isn't any tougher than the base coat of enamel (on the Leading Edge), and I don't know how the Rustoleum compares to the Duplicolor, or if the matte clear is even compatible with the Duplicolor, so this is all an experiment to me. Sorry, I realize that isn't much help.

daneli

07 Aug 2022, 01:53

I have a question about the instructions for reattaching a spring. In the "Model F Quality Control Secrets" video it states that "the top end of the spring wire must finish between the 12 o'clock and 1 o'clock positions." In a recent post in the Dick Harris question/answer thread SneakyRobb seems to say that Dick Harris suggested that the spring should be opposite to what the video suggests, with the bottom end of the spring finishing in that position. Here's the picture from SneakyRobb showing what he says is the proper orientation:
flipper spring orientation.JPG
flipper spring orientation.JPG (73.81 KiB) Viewed 424 times
I wonder which is correct and what happens if the spring ends up in the wrong orientation?

pveentjer

07 Aug 2022, 06:55

What is the default keyboard combination to disable/enable the solenoid? I have not made any modifications to the firmware. The solenoid is working fine and hammering away.

[edit]
right control + space + t

sedevidi

07 Aug 2022, 10:14

daneli wrote:
07 Aug 2022, 01:53
I wonder which is correct and what happens if the spring ends up in the wrong orientation?
As experienced recently: I vaguely remember that boths ends of the spring I removed have the same orientation; what happens is that the key won't register reliably, or only when pressing the key a certain way, even though it clicked, probably because the ending of the spring matches the inner of the key, and the added micro-length just adds the required pressure to press the flipper...
My Left-Ctrl key was "wrong" even though the orientation was "just 12 o'clock". I turned it a bit towards 1 o'clock.

Guppy

07 Aug 2022, 21:53

Okay, this may not be the right thread to ask this question, but how do I set numpad layer on QMK to where using numlock activates the layer? It seems like such a simple thing, to the point where the QMK manual doesn't even mention how to do it, just that it can be done using layers.

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