F104+SSK+122+62+77+50+Ergo orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards

[NathanA]

I'd guess that after his xwhatsit stock has been depleted,

You correctly spotted the reason why I said that I am surprised

I think we are talking past each other, somehow. Perhaps a language barrier issue. Not sure.

Why would you expect his xwhatsit stock to be depleted by this point? This actually does go back *exactly* to my point about "lead times". He ordered a bunch more xwhatsits when he told the factory to begin building these keyboards MONTHS ago, BECAUSE he needed to order SOMETHING...you can't make a keyboard without a controller. The xwhatsit was a "known quantity", and at the same time the Leyden Jar wasn't even ready yet! So naturally he ordered a bunch of xwhatsits. Why is this so difficult to understand?

So, yes, I am sure he still has quite a few more xwhatsits to burn through. Not surprising in the least.

Your complaint appears to boil down to, "I can't believe that Ellipse didn't use this thing that didn't exist until 5 minutes ago." Which is absurd. (Obviously the "5 minutes" part is hyperbole. But you get the point.)

I would not go for one of Ellipse's keyboards which are based on xwhatsit controllers just to empty his stock.
If I would have to do it, I would replace the controller. This cost would add to the $399+shipping.

That makes sense for you and your priorities. I guess it's good that different people have different needs, and prioritize different things. The majority of the build cost of this keyboard is not in the controller being used. I think that much is obvious. I would guess that people who are buying these keyboards now are doing so because they are in the market for something that literally doesn't exist anywhere else: a Model F with an IBM Enhanced Keyboard layout and form-factor, in a metal enclosure. If you have the luxury of putting off your purchase indefinitely until the controller changes, and you do so because you put so much value on the controller being used, then that's perfectly valid. Others would apparently rather have their keyboards sooner than that.

A nice way to state that it is stock related

????

Ellipse is confirming exactly what I suspected: he had a manufacturing lead time issue that required him to order controllers before Leyden Jar was ready. Now he has to use them.

BTW: do you ship your keyboards Firmware VIAL ?

Yes, he is shipping them with Vial. (Only "VIA" is capitalized. "Vial" is not.)

My xwhatsit ended up without memory when I tried to compile VIAL on them

I am aware of this issue. I built the firmwares that Ellipse is loading onto these keyboards. I had to jump through some hoops to make it work. Memory limitation in xwhatsit's Atmel micro definitely makes it difficult, and does add limitations.

The first thing that I noticed when installing (Rico's) RP2040 Leyden Jar was its speed. It is noticeble faster.

Yes, we are all aware of the difference between the xwhatsit and Leyden Jar in terms of the microprocessor being used. But I am confused: are you saying you experience typing lag with xwhatsit? I have personally never seen this.

[...] I was surprised to read that AVR-xwhatsit keyboards are sold at the end of 2024.

Chronological fallacy.

Well done Rico. Respect !

Yes, agreed. I too think Rico has done an amazing job. I'm not arguing otherwise; nobody is. And I am very much looking forward to a future full of capacitive keyboards driven by Leyden Jars.

What we are talking about right here, right now are hard, practical, real-world realities.

Basically one can enable all VIAL options:

From your list, here are the features my Vial firmwares for xwhatsit currently support:

Layers (3)
Macros (16)
Tap dances (4)
Combos (4)
Mouse Keys

[idollar]

Your complaint appears to boil down to, "I can't believe that Ellipse didn't use this thing that didn't exist until 5 minutes ago." Which is absurd. (Obviously the "5 minutes" part is hyperbole. But you get the point.)

Apologies, I do not get the point. Please, do not put words in my mouth. I wrote what I wanted to state.

1.- I said that I am surprised to read that these keyboards are sold with an xwhatsit controller. I expected to find the Leyden Jar on them. I have not complained. How may I complain about something that I did not buy ? I just expressed surprise.
2.- I added that I would not buy a modern model-f which is based on the old xwhatsit. In the later, "I" = "I".

I will stop this conversation here. It does not make sense to continue.
I guess that we that we disagree

[idollar]

Error/Mistake --- disregard

[idollar]

Error/Mistake - disregard

[Rotti]

Quick question. Just getting a new controller from the site installed into an original Model T AT and was wondering what the reason was behind having to short J1 on the RP2040, or if that is still needed.

[NathanA]

Quick question. Just getting a new controller from the site installed into an original Model T AT and was wondering what the reason was behind having to short J1 on the RP2040, or if that is still needed.

I was confused by your reference to RP2040 since that is the microcontroller used on Leyden Jar, while any references to "shorting J1" are in the context of a Pro Micro, which is ATmega based (specifically, 32u4, vs. the original xwhatsit which uses 32u2). Furthermore, though it should be entirely possible to install a Leyden Jar in any buckling spring capsense 'board including an F AT, you implied you ordered your controller from Ellipse, and though he has Leyden Jars listed on the order form, lower down in the description it is explained he doesn't yet stock these in quantity & thus this is a pre-order situation (not sure if that information is stale or still current, though, admittedly). So if you have a Leyden Jar, you would have needed to order some yourself from a build-to-order outfit like PCBWay or JLCPCB, etc. or participate in someone else's group buy for one.

So I'm going to assume the "RP2040" reference in your post is a mistake, and you really mean that you bought one of the "universal"-style "SMD Model F Controllers" that are driven by a Pro Micro, which it looks like Ellipse is now also manufacturing and selling in addition to the small "wcass" xwhatsits.

According to this post by pandrew discussing these Pro Micro driven controllers, under "Assembly Instructions", it clearly states that "You MUST short the J1 jumper on the 5V pro micro", though he doesn't explain why (for the benefit of us who are unfamiliar with the Pro Micro). Googling around for more information about J1 on the Pro Micro leads me to this site, which gives a very good explanation for the reason: J1 controls whether you are using the on-board voltage regulator or not. On the 5V version, if you feed it 5V and keep the voltage regulator in-circuit, the resulting output will experience a slight voltage drop. Therefore if you have no need for the voltage regulator (which you'd use in order to step the voltage DOWN when you are feeding it MORE than 5V), because something upstream of the Pro Micro is already guaranteeing clean 5V DC power, then it is best to not use the Pro Micro's regulator. This is exactly the situation you would have when driving a Pro Micro using USB, since USB spec (outside of newer USB-PD stuff) requires the use of 5V. Presumably the design of the capsense circuitry downstream of the Pro Micro assumes a steady 5V and needs every bit of that, thus the "you MUST" language in the documentation for this controller.

For what it's worth, about a year ago I built a Vial firmware for somebody who installed an xwhatsit controller into their F AT. I've still got the layout files around, so if you are interested I could easily adapt this to build a F AT Vial firmware for this "universal" style controller.

[Rotti]

Quick question. Just getting a new controller from the site installed into an original Model T AT and was wondering what the reason was behind having to short J1 on the RP2040, or if that is still needed.

I was confused by your reference to RP2040 since that is the microcontroller used on Leyden Jar, while any references to "shorting J1" are in the context of a Pro Micro, which is ATmega based (specifically, 32u4, vs. the original xwhatsit which uses 32u2). Furthermore, though it should be entirely possible to install a Leyden Jar in any buckling spring capsense 'board including an F AT, you implied you ordered your controller from Ellipse, and though he has Leyden Jars listed on the order form, lower down in the description it is explained he doesn't yet stock these in quantity & thus this is a pre-order situation (not sure if that information is stale or still current, though, admittedly). So if you have a Leyden Jar, you would have needed to order some yourself from a build-to-order outfit like PCBWay or JLCPCB, etc. or participate in someone else's group buy for one.

So I'm going to assume the "RP2040" reference in your post is a mistake, and you really mean that you bought one of the "universal"-style "SMD Model F Controllers" that are driven by a Pro Micro, which it looks like Ellipse is now also manufacturing and selling in addition to the small "wcass" xwhatsits.

According to this post by pandrew discussing these Pro Micro driven controllers, under "Assembly Instructions", it clearly states that "You MUST short the J1 jumper on the 5V pro micro", though he doesn't explain why (for the benefit of us who are unfamiliar with the Pro Micro). Googling around for more information about J1 on the Pro Micro leads me to this site, which gives a very good explanation for the reason: J1 controls whether you are using the on-board voltage regulator or not. On the 5V version, if you feed it 5V and keep the voltage regulator in-circuit, the resulting output will experience a slight voltage drop. Therefore if you have no need for the voltage regulator (which you'd use in order to step the voltage DOWN when you are feeding it MORE than 5V), because something upstream of the Pro Micro is already guaranteeing clean 5V DC power, then it is best to not use the Pro Micro's regulator. This is exactly the situation you would have when driving a Pro Micro using USB, since USB spec (outside of newer USB-PD stuff) requires the use of 5V. Presumably the design of the capsense circuitry downstream of the Pro Micro assumes a steady 5V and needs every bit of that, thus the "you MUST" language in the documentation for this controller.

For what it's worth, about a year ago I built a Vial firmware for somebody who installed an xwhatsit controller into their F AT. I've still got the layout files around, so if you are interested I could easily adapt this to build a F AT Vial firmware for this "universal" style controller.

Sorry about that, yes, it is a pro micro with the "universal controller". I am not that worried about the firmware. The QMK stuff should work just fine. The only issues I had really firmware wise with my Kishy were pretty much all user error on my end.

Just curious, what is this pandrew utility I am seeing screenshots of with signal levels? For what it's worth, I am on Windows 10. Most of the screenshots I have seen look to be Linux based. But I could be wrong.

[NathanA]

The QMK stuff should work just fine. The only issues I had really firmware wise with my Kishy were pretty much all user error on my end.

Just to be clear, "Vial" firmware is not really a wholly separate firmware project, but is the same QMK firmware you're already used to (so, QMK + pandrew's port of it to Model F capsense controllers that are based on the xwhatsit design), with some extensions and additional niceties added to it. The primary advantage is that unlike "raw" QMK, it doesn't require you to re-compile and re-flash a firmware every time you want to make a change to your keyboard layout (whether that be by re-compiling on your own PC, or being dependent on the "QMK Configurator" web site to produce a firmware image for you with the exact layout you want). Instead, you just run an app on your PC that allows you to instantly see what your current key mappings are, and change them on the fly.

Just curious, what is this pandrew utility I am seeing screenshots of with signal levels? For what it's worth, I am on Windows 10. Most of the screenshots I have seen look to be Linux based. But I could be wrong.

"pandrew" is just the moniker that Mr. Andrei goes by online. He is the one who is responsible for making QMK a reality on the xwhatsit controller (& its derivatives, such as the controller that you bought). He developed a diagnostics app that that can communicate with a keyboard controller running some variant of his QMK port in order to help you troubleshoot common hardware issues. It is multiplatform and exists for Windows, Mac, and Linux. You can download & check it out for yourself from my site; the version of the utility that I distribute works both with keyboards running the Vial firmwares I build, and also with the original QMK firmware it is descended from.

This is strictly a diagnostic utility & does not provide you with a means of reprogrammability; for that, you need the separate Vial app.

[Rotti]

The QMK stuff should work just fine. The only issues I had really firmware wise with my Kishy were pretty much all user error on my end.

Just to be clear, "Vial" firmware is not really a wholly separate firmware project, but is the same QMK firmware you're already used to (so, QMK + pandrew's port of it to Model F capsense controllers that are based on the xwhatsit design), with some extensions and additional niceties added to it. The primary advantage is that unlike "raw" QMK, it doesn't require you to re-compile and re-flash a firmware every time you want to make a change to your keyboard layout (whether that be by re-compiling on your own PC, or being dependent on the "QMK Configurator" web site to produce a firmware image for you with the exact layout you want). Instead, you just run an app on your PC that allows you to instantly see what your current key mappings are, and change them on the fly.

Just curious, what is this pandrew utility I am seeing screenshots of with signal levels? For what it's worth, I am on Windows 10. Most of the screenshots I have seen look to be Linux based. But I could be wrong.

"pandrew" is just the moniker that Mr. Andrei goes by online. He is the one who is responsible for making QMK a reality on the xwhatsit controller (& its derivatives, such as the controller that you bought). He developed a diagnostics app that that can communicate with a keyboard controller running some variant of his QMK port in order to help you troubleshoot common hardware issues. It is multiplatform and exists for Windows, Mac, and Linux. You can download & check it out for yourself from my site; the version of the utility that I distribute works both with keyboards running the Vial firmwares I build, and also with the original QMK firmware it is descended from.

This is strictly a diagnostic utility & does not provide you with a means of reprogrammability; for that, you need the separate Vial app.

Sounds good. I will dig into that tomorrow.

[Ellipse]

The latest air shipment from the factory arrived this week (the final beam spring keyboard samples were excellent and everything was approved for production today!). Here are some of the Model F items:

Some more Model F JIS, Russian Hebrew English, and Hebrew English sets arrived. All orders will now be fulfilled with the new production sets. Everyone please let me know if there are any other sets you'd like to have made. Email me for details (I no longer receive Deskthority notifications due to some kind of site error so PM's are not recommended at the moment).

The Apple/Mac F1-F15 key sets arrived.