F104+SSK+122+62+77+50+Ergo orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards

Ellipse

20 Jan 2025, 11:01

F122 container shipment update:

The next container shipment is now on its way; today the pallets were picked up by the freight forwarder and are getting ready to be loaded into the shipping container. Since this shipment was only a few pallets the shipping container is being shared with other shipments (known as LCL or less than container load).

This shipment contains a little over half the 400 F122 keyboards that I ordered as part of the first batch, which should be enough to mail out all of the current F122 orders so far, plus some orders in the coming weeks. Please don't ask if your current or prospective order will be included in the current container shipment or not as I can't say for sure and no one knows whether a number of these boards may arrive damaged, thereby reducing the number of shippable boards.

Delivery of the container shipment to me is expected by early April.
2025 01 container shipment.jpg
2025 01 container shipment.jpg (1.65 MiB) Viewed 9776 times

User avatar
idollar
i$

21 Jan 2025, 11:32

I keep thinking that this is all but a GB. It’s only marketing and vendor support.
Apart from purchasing and support, no valuable information is being shared.

In my opinion, these types of threads pollute the Group Buy section, but it seems that DT moderators don't mind.
It's very sad to see how things have evolved.

nac5605

21 Jan 2025, 12:08

I like to know the status of my order, personally.

genericusername57

21 Jan 2025, 19:59

Can't a moderator split out all discussions about how horrible Ellipse is to a new thread so this one can be kept on topic?

User avatar
wobbled

22 Jan 2025, 01:26

genericusername57 wrote:
21 Jan 2025, 19:59
Can't a moderator split out all discussions about how horrible Ellipse is to a new thread so this one can be kept on topic?
Ellipse is that u?

User avatar
idollar
i$

22 Jan 2025, 10:47

genericusername57 wrote:
21 Jan 2025, 19:59
Can't a moderator split out all discussions about how horrible Ellipse is to a new thread so this one can be kept on topic?
My posts are not about "Model F Labs" representative. This is just one of the examples to be considered.
Please do not make it personal. It is not.

Having said the above: before this request referenced above is considered, common sense dictates that the question on moving this thread where it belongs = vendor (in my opinion), shall be responded.
Unfortunately this has not happened until now.

Ellipse

23 Jan 2025, 08:06

nac5605 please do check the updates page which summarizes the current production and shipping status for each type of keyboard. This should help folks see where things are. The F122 batch that departed the factory this month for the current container shipment should cover all of the previous orders of F122's. The beam spring boards status is on the beam spring thread and the other boards are stocked, outside of the specific variants that can no longer be ordered (beige F62 classic case, F50, F Ortho Split, etc.).

User avatar
shampoo

23 Jan 2025, 23:18

Hello everyone

I have an F77 and recently the spacebar is sticking. It sticks if I push it on the left side. If I push on the middle or the right, no issues. I had this problem during the summer and it went away on it's own.. But it appears to be back again.

Any ideas what I can do to fix this ?

Thanks
J

genericusername57

23 Jan 2025, 23:20

idollar wrote:
22 Jan 2025, 10:47
genericusername57 wrote:
21 Jan 2025, 19:59
Can't a moderator split out all discussions about how horrible Ellipse is to a new thread so this one can be kept on topic?
My posts are not about "Model F Labs" representative. This is just one of the examples to be considered.
Please do not make it personal. It is not.

Having said the above: before this request referenced above is considered, common sense dictates that the question on moving this thread where it belongs = vendor (in my opinion), shall be responded.
Unfortunately this has not happened until now.
It that keeps the thread from being polluted I think it's a great idea. Or split this extremely tiresome discussion no one but a few people actually care about into a new thread. Any kind of moderating at all would be helpful. Removing garbage posts like the one above yours is another example.

Discussions that are solely about Ellipse or his business should not be in a thread about this specific Model F project. It's just common netiquette to keep discussions separate on a forum and if the members can't separate them themselves someone with the permissions to move posts has to.

It's just a bit sad if you're trying to keep up with updates and see new posts and it's just the same dead horse being beaten over and over again.

Ellipse

24 Jan 2025, 02:28

shampoo please do see the recently updated manual on the project web site as there is now a whole section dedicated to adjusting the spacebar. Almost always a sticking spacebar is due to the stabilizer wire being too close to the back of the metal spacebar tab, so carefully bending the part of the wire so that it is farther away from the metal tabs will do the trick. You should also make sure the metal tabs of the spacebar are pushed down a bit so that they do not touch the spacebar when it is pressed down, but not pushed so far down that it causes the spacebar to get stuck when pressed.

User avatar
wobbled

24 Jan 2025, 03:58

genericusername57 wrote:
23 Jan 2025, 23:20
idollar wrote:
22 Jan 2025, 10:47
genericusername57 wrote:
21 Jan 2025, 19:59
Can't a moderator split out all discussions about how horrible Ellipse is to a new thread so this one can be kept on topic?
My posts are not about "Model F Labs" representative. This is just one of the examples to be considered.
Please do not make it personal. It is not.

Having said the above: before this request referenced above is considered, common sense dictates that the question on moving this thread where it belongs = vendor (in my opinion), shall be responded.
Unfortunately this has not happened until now.
It that keeps the thread from being polluted I think it's a great idea. Or split this extremely tiresome discussion no one but a few people actually care about into a new thread. Any kind of moderating at all would be helpful. Removing garbage posts like the one above yours is another example.

Discussions that are solely about Ellipse or his business should not be in a thread about this specific Model F project. It's just common netiquette to keep discussions separate on a forum and if the members can't separate them themselves someone with the permissions to move posts has to.

It's just a bit sad if you're trying to keep up with updates and see new posts and it's just the same dead horse being beaten over and over again.
Well it’s a good job that free speech is a thing then isn’t it? Had joe bought deskthority we would probably be banned by now.
I don’t really care that you want to keep up with the latest updates, you’re perfectly capable of scrolling, and we do not have to move our discussions elsewhere, that’s not the way we operated before your ass joined this forum, and hopefully it never will be.
Pipe down.

genericusername57

24 Jan 2025, 08:04

wobbled wrote:
24 Jan 2025, 03:58
Well it’s a good job that free speech is a thing then isn’t it? Had joe bought deskthority we would probably be banned by now.
I don’t really care that you want to keep up with the latest updates, you’re perfectly capable of scrolling, and we do not have to move our discussions elsewhere, that’s not the way we operated before your ass joined this forum, and hopefully it never will be.
Pipe down.
Have you considered that the fact that this forum is dying is because it's unmoderated and people like you pollute threads because you are new to the internet and aren't aware how a forum used to work back in the good days? In lack of moderators controlling the discussion and organizing this forum, please try to summon the little bit of common decency that exists in all people and create a new thread for your ramblings.

You literally do not post about anything else than Ellipse. What aspect of community and sharing and whatever do you feel that you're contributing here, exactly?

nac5605

24 Jan 2025, 12:11

Ellipse wrote:
23 Jan 2025, 08:06
nac5605 please do check the updates page which summarizes the current production and shipping status for each type of keyboard. This should help folks see where things are. The F122 batch that departed the factory this month for the current container shipment should cover all of the previous orders of F122's. The beam spring boards status is on the beam spring thread and the other boards are stocked, outside of the specific variants that can no longer be ordered (beige F62 classic case, F50, F Ortho Split, etc.).
Oh I know; I was saying that I like having a thread with updates on the production run :)

User avatar
shampoo

24 Jan 2025, 13:40

Ellipse wrote:
24 Jan 2025, 02:28
shampoo please do see the recently updated manual on the project web site as there is now a whole section dedicated to adjusting the spacebar. Almost always a sticking spacebar is due to the stabilizer wire being too close to the back of the metal spacebar tab, so carefully bending the part of the wire so that it is farther away from the metal tabs will do the trick. You should also make sure the metal tabs of the spacebar are pushed down a bit so that they do not touch the spacebar when it is pressed down, but not pushed so far down that it causes the spacebar to get stuck when pressed.
Hi Ellipse,

Thanks for this. Just to be sure, the manual you are referring to is here: https://www.modelfkeyboards.com/manual/ ?
If so, I am not seeing the section dedicated to adjusting the spacebar. Thanks.

genericusername57

24 Jan 2025, 15:29

shampoo wrote:
24 Jan 2025, 13:40
Hi Ellipse,

Thanks for this. Just to be sure, the manual you are referring to is here: https://www.modelfkeyboards.com/manual/ ?
If so, I am not seeing the section dedicated to adjusting the spacebar. Thanks.
Part 1: Initial Setup and Troubleshooting Guide, Section E.

But I'll just chime in and say any issues with the space bar is likely to be in the stabilizing wire. I've wrapped the parts that meet the metal tabs in some teflon tape to reduce rattle and then pushed the tabs down a bit with the space bar mounted to keep it a bit more fixed. This has fixed any issues I had with the space bar, however sticking was not one of them so YMMV.

User avatar
shampoo

24 Jan 2025, 18:18

genericusername57 wrote:
24 Jan 2025, 15:29


Part 1: Initial Setup and Troubleshooting Guide, Section E.

But I'll just chime in and say any issues with the space bar is likely to be in the stabilizing wire. I've wrapped the parts that meet the metal tabs in some teflon tape to reduce rattle and then pushed the tabs down a bit with the space bar mounted to keep it a bit more fixed. This has fixed any issues I had with the space bar, however sticking was not one of them so YMMV.
Found it. Thanks !

User avatar
shampoo

25 Jan 2025, 13:58

Just a heads up, the bending trick outlined in the manual and the video solved my problem. Thanks to all that helped. After, I started to have issues where the Command button (I am on a Mac) would only work sometimes. I reset and reset over and over and same issue. The key sounded fine too. Now I normally have my keyboard plugged into the back of my monitor which then connect vis USB C to my MacBook. I instead plugged it directly into the MacBook and the Mac then asks if I would accept this new device. Yet, I have been using this keyboard for well over a year.. Odd that it asked me that. Anyhow, I accepted and all keys work perfectly.

User avatar
wobbled

25 Jan 2025, 16:38

genericusername57 wrote:
24 Jan 2025, 08:04
wobbled wrote:
24 Jan 2025, 03:58
Well it’s a good job that free speech is a thing then isn’t it? Had joe bought deskthority we would probably be banned by now.
I don’t really care that you want to keep up with the latest updates, you’re perfectly capable of scrolling, and we do not have to move our discussions elsewhere, that’s not the way we operated before your ass joined this forum, and hopefully it never will be.
Pipe down.
Have you considered that the fact that this forum is dying is because it's unmoderated and people like you pollute threads because you are new to the internet and aren't aware how a forum used to work back in the good days? In lack of moderators controlling the discussion and organizing this forum, please try to summon the little bit of common decency that exists in all people and create a new thread for your ramblings.

You literally do not post about anything else than Ellipse. What aspect of community and sharing and whatever do you feel that you're contributing here, exactly?
The forum was dying before you even joined, so why are you trying to act like you know what you’re talking about lol? You obviously don’t know the back story as to why DT has died after being sold and resold, all you do is sit in these threads waiting to defend ellipse.

New to the internet? Literally been on this forum longer than you, and although i hate to feel old, I’ve probably been using the internet for longer too.
Moderators have never ‘controlled the discussion’ you absolute melt, that literally is not their job. If that’s what you want out of DT then you are very much not welcome here, censorship is the biggest enemy.

Since you seem to be stalking my posts, maybe look back to my posts earlier than just the last couple of months…

Ellipse

26 Jan 2025, 00:41

Wendell from Level1Techs has just posted a video on the Brand New Model M Style FSSK!

Here was the video comment I posted:
Thanks Wendell for a great video on the Brand New Model F keyboard! I especially liked your explanation of the solenoid and what it does. A number of folks have told me that they didn't really understand what the solenoid did for these old style keyboards and why it was such a popular add on. At a recent keyboard meetup I had the keyboard with installed solenoid connected to my laptop so that folks could see the solenoid in action as they tested the new reproduction keyboards - there was a lot of attention on the solenoid specifically!
Glad you got everything working shampoo! Your issue with the key would probably be helped if you reseated / reinstalled the spring, which may have not been originally seated in the proper position. The manual has recently been updated to show a photo of a correctly seated spring's position with the keyboard held vertically, space bar end up.

genericusername57

26 Jan 2025, 00:49

wobbled wrote:
25 Jan 2025, 16:38
I'm an angsty teenager and I'm having a tantrum
I know, but please have it in your own thread because your contributions aren't wanted

User avatar
wobbled

26 Jan 2025, 03:51

genericusername57 wrote:
26 Jan 2025, 00:49
wobbled wrote:
25 Jan 2025, 16:38
I'm an angsty teenager and I'm having a tantrum
I know, but please have it in your own thread because your contributions aren't wanted
Lol I'll post wherever I choose, appreciate the recommendations though.

Ellipse

28 Jan 2025, 02:43

Update: the F122 keyboards are currently at sea on the container ship. Delivery to me is expected in mid-March, slightly earlier than previously expected.

mbarszcz

03 Feb 2025, 20:27

I'm noticing that the wear/keys sticking when pressed off-center issue that was being discussed previously by resonator seems to be more widespread than I thought. I've started noticing recently that it impacts heavily used keys as well, not just the unstabilized keys larger than 1U keys near the outside edge. The keys I applied the dry teflon lube so far have been holding up well.

For example, A,S,T,E,R, and U are all scratchier than keys with less common letters like Q, P, M, L, or C. There is no doubt in my mind at this point that there is a some kind of wear occurring between the barrel and the stem over time causing the scratchy feel when pressed off center. The fact that resonator said that swapping stems helped for a while and then it came back seems to suggest that perhaps the barrels are what is causing damage to the ABS stems. Maybe they are made of a harder or rougher material than the stems? I wouldn't think it would be a tolerance issue because they work great initially. Ellipse, are the black barrels and tan key stems made out of the same type of plastic?

With old keyboards, dust and dirt and grime are usually factors impacting this kind of behavior, but since the components are new, I highly doubt dirt or dust are the issue. I don't claim to be an expert, but there is something different about the new stems and barrels that wears different than the originals that are butter smooth even after 40+ years.

It's difficult without feel-o-vision to capture the difference on a youtube video, but here's an example of the F104 vs the F122.
F104: smooth Y, scratchy and sticking T
F122 All keys smooth even after 40 years.

Ellipse

03 Feb 2025, 23:56

In my own testing over the years I find the new production keycaps to be extremely smooth, in line with my expectations for Model F keycaps after having restored many dozens of original Model F keyboards over the years.

However for everyone, if you find that one key is not to your liking, please swap it with several other keys installed in the same barrel. The goal of that test is to see if it is likely to be the barrel that is at issue or just one bad key. And as always, I have so many extra keys and barrels that I can send a free replacement part if the issue discussed here is with a key or barrel. Just add an order note with your next order, so that it can ship with that order at no extra shipping cost for just one or more keys.

Another good recommendation is to physically inspect the keycaps and barrels at high magnification to see if you can notice any differences between ones that have the different feeling and ones that are fine.

Again this is more of an issue with folks who are extra sensitive to differences in friction when pressing keys in different positions. Outside of the few folks who have noted this issue I have not seen it reported from all of the other six thousand boards that have shipped since 2019. Many folks lately have been telling me they have used their boards for a year or longer with no noticeable issues.

The keycap material is the same exact PBT material that IBM used, as reported to me by an original IBM Model F factory production supervisor. The barrels are not made of PBT. No ABS plastic is used.

Ellipse

04 Feb 2025, 02:18

Here we have a great video review of the new Model M style F104 keyboard from YouTube channel Tech Bytes! My comments on the video are below:

I like that you focused on a comparison with the Model M, which I think will be most helpful for folks who come across your review and who may have heard about the M but have not heard about its predecessor, the Model F.

Regarding the label, the labels were designed to reproduce the original Model F 4704 which had the same silver label style. I agree that I do like the larger Model F and Model M labels with the plastic laminate overlay. I have thought about changing it to the better style label.

Regarding keycaps, most IBM Model F originals had one-piece keys, though some had two piece keys. The opposite was the case with Model M keyboards: most have two piece keys, though a few came with one piece keys. That is a great observation about the extra movement with two piece keys compared to one-piece keys.

mbarszcz

05 Feb 2025, 15:35

Sorry ellipse, I meant PBT for the caps/stems. Are the barrels made of the same material or are they something different?

Even if other people have it reported the issue to you, or they "aren't as sensitive" I don't see how that would change the behavior of the keyboard itself. Either the keys and barrels are wearing against each other, or they're not. Considering it's happening on all the keys that get used a lot for me, I don't see how it's a matter of sensitivity or preference, it's just a fact.

Are they all actually like this? Could it be a bad batch? Change in the manufacturing process or matetials over the years? Maybe?

Ellipse

05 Feb 2025, 20:37

mbarszcz neither the original nor reproduction barrels were made of PBT; I was told of the different type of plastic by the same helpful IBM retiree and use it. All the pearl/pebble US keycaps and almost all international sets were produced at least 3 years ago as part of a huge batch that I am still sending out today, so it is not a matter of a change in the keycap parts. (Other sets were produced throughout the past few years, recently such as some international sets and dark gray and blue sets, which have had more demand than expected.)

Since you have received the same exact components as thousands of other folks and the issue is reported by a few out of six thousand, even by those who heavily use the keyboard every day, there is no evidence to show that there is an issue affecting many people.

I can see that you noted you applied teflon lube to the keyboards; lubrication is not something that IBM ever did in widespread usage (outside of soft touch grease type stuff on one or two specific models) and it is not something I recommend. That could definitely affect wear. I know that in my hobby of old electric synchronous clocks, applying anything to certain clock gears is highly frowned upon; the clock collector community consensus is that it actually speeds up the amount of wear to the gears and wear on the rotor or motor.

But I would definitely say that the IBM keycap design results in increased friction for keys pressed along the edges, especially for Model M keycaps and the Model M barrel frame, but to a lesser degree with the F. Recently I was restoring a well-used Model M; I did some edge testing and can confirm some keys require noticeably more force to press on the sides, even for original boards, but in normal typing this was not at all noticeable because I don't press the edges of the keys.

Without further investigation, I am not too confident in what you are saying because if the material wears down, then it would possibly have more space between keycap and barrel as material is worn away, so the amount of friction and additional force required might be reduced. Similar to the wiggle/squeeze/burnish the back of the stem method in the manual to reduce friction.

Again, it would be helpful if you could please review my above recommendations posted a couple days ago and do a closer inspection from what you have done so we can see what the issue might be. It might be best to remove all modifications and teflon lube and replace any parts where that lube has ever contacted (including keycaps and barrels), even if they helped in the short term, as it may have permanently changed or worn the parts in some way.

mbarszcz

05 Feb 2025, 23:09

I think you misunderstood about the teflon. I applied it to some keys because they were sticking after some time, that was not the cause of it. The keys right now that are not sticking are: the ones that are infrequently used and the ones that are frequently used with the Teflon. What that does to them does over time remains to be seen I suppose, but what I can say for certain is that keys without lube, exactly as they came from the factory, start to get scratchy over time on this F104.

I don't have a microscope to examine them very closely, but i took some keys off and looked at them today under a bright light and tried to photograph them. Honestly though, there isn't much to look at. From what I can tell, good keys don't really look different than bad keys. And the new F104 doesn't really look any different than the old F122, but they feel different for sure.

The biggest difference I noticed between the keys though seemed to be in the "corners" of the barrels. I'm really not sure what we're looking at there though. Is that is wear in the barrel plastic or stem material that has rubbed onto the barrel?. Dust? Nothing? Swapping in a new stem "fixes" the problem (until it would wear again) though. After swapping my scroll lock and T keys, the T barrel with the scroll lock key is perfectly smooth, while scroll lock with the worn T stem feels the exact same, scratchy. So in other words, the feeling follows the stem.

There are some marks on the sides of the stems, but I think that's just a red herring. That doesn't actually contact anything. I'm sure you understand the mechanism better than I do, but it seems that the 4 corners of the stem are what actually contacts the "corners" of the barrel and that's where the wear is occurring, particularly when keys are pressed off-axis.

Since I was swapping things, I swapped some keys between my old and new boards with some interesting results:
Swapping the scratchy F104 "T" key into my original F122 barrel is still super smooth (surprisingly).
Swapping the original F122 T key into my F104 barrel is also smooth.

Also of note, the old F122 barrel doesn't visually look at different that I can see, yet the interaction between the stems and barrels is somehow different. Despite the F122 being heavily used, dusty, and old, none of that seems to adversely affect the key feel in any way, it still manages to be smoother.
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Ellipse

06 Feb 2025, 21:32

After reviewing your additional notes and photos, I can't really diagnose whether there is an issue from here so it would be great if you could wash all the keys (soaked in water, not only wiped by hand) and send the full set back to me for testing. The parts must have all lube and debris removed. (Ultrasonic bath cleaning with dish soap would be best, if you have it)

I will send you a new set as a replacement. Please email me the tracking number after you have sent it back, and let me know if you have any questions with the above steps.

I also suggest cleaning out the barrels with a cotton swab / Q tip and 99% rubbing alcohol before reinstalling the new set. I have found that this helps Model M keyboards as well to improve smoothness.

However I do think that this is just something to do with the typing style you noted, pressing on the edges of the keys, that is more evident with the new production keys which may have slightly tighter tolerances in terms of space between key stem and barrel compared to your particular F122. As I mentioned, the keys should be more difficult to press on the edges than in the center, based on IBM's design, and I'd imagine everyone else has not noticed such an issue because they don't type near the edges of the keys. From what you have described, this is either an issue with one bad key set or due to abnormal usage patterns, so when I receive your set back I should know one way or the other.

User avatar
wobbled

07 Feb 2025, 00:29

Built to last months, not decades

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