F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards

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Zed

01 Nov 2017, 18:26

Myoth wrote:
Zed wrote: the artwork for the F XT repro legends I can say that I am working up a number of ISO sets including: Swedish/Finnish, German, Norwegian, Spanish, Swiss French/German, French, UK English and US International.

When is that going to come out ?? I want some of those sweet french F XT keyset :oops:
I will send all the ISO layouts to Ellipse with the rest of the artwork but I am not the guy who has to dye-sub 1000+ :shock: keysets so we will have to wait for an answer from Ellipse.

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Alpinist

01 Nov 2017, 18:29

Zed wrote: I can't speak directly for Ellipse, but as the guy who is doing the artwork for the F XT repro legends I can say that I am working up a number of ISO sets including: Swedish/Finnish, German, Norwegian, Spanish, Swiss French/German, French, UK English and US International.
Yes. I read the 91 pages (!) yesterday before making the order and saw you were taking care of the artwork. Thanks for taking care of it! Because as you mentioned later on, somebody has to do it as Ellipse is not really taking care of the details or anything... ;)
depletedvespene wrote: Let's hope he does, because I definitely want the "Spanish (Latin America)" layout on my units. This is, of course, personal preference, but I like it much better than the other one, as it is much more programmer-friendly.

Then again, if it were for me... I'd have everyone adopt the Iberoamerican layout that I'm designing these days (... months) that addresses the shortcomings in both main layouts. But let's not dwell on that for now. :mrgreen:
I would much prefer the Spanish (Spain) one though, as I'm forced to swap between Spanish (Spain) keyboards often. But I can see where you are coming from. TBH I don't find either of them are that great for programming, but maybe it's just me.

I'm curious about your layout. Feel free to PM about it if you want or point me to a new thread if you ever decide to open one on it.

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Alpinist

01 Nov 2017, 18:41

Do we know the actuation force for the spacebar? I read in some review that the spacebar on some original model F was really way too heavy compared with the rest of the keys, and a bit of a bummer, really.

I'm not sure if that was only referring to the original XT and that was later addressed on the AT ones, though. Or if that really was an issue for everybody as I only saw this mentioned once.

I did a search on the thread (just in case I missed it while going through it) and saw mentions to the length on the spacebar but didn't see any mention on the activation force so I thought about asking just in case...

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Alpinist

01 Nov 2017, 18:57

Ellipse, this question is going to sound almost like heresy, especially after the care that you are taking on getting those beautiful zinc cases right but... have we considered alternative (very good) plastic ones as a potential option (as it is relatively easy to swap cases if the user decides to do so).

The reason I'm asking such an apparently silly question is because while I don't care about the noise level, I much prefer a fuller sound that a good plastic casing seems to produce. The AT model sounds way nicer than the almost a bit shrill (to me at least) XT one and that's due metal amplifying the already relatively high-pitch nature of the capacitive BS noises.

I know that you are working on the sound issue, like how keycaps are impacting on this, and you might even be looking into some kind of inner treatment of the case to improve it, but just in case... TBH, for me at least the "bassier", fuller and rounded the sound the better. That's the only thing I'm not that thrilled about the capacitive BS (still probably a small price to pay for that feeling goodness).

As you are in contact with so many manufactures, you might have a rough idea about how feasible/expensive this option could be and if it really would add sound benefits at all... Or maybe some kind of inner treatment of the zinc cases could be the way to go instead?

Ellipse

01 Nov 2017, 23:44

Yes Zed I am fine with additional language options for the key sets to make sure everyone can use these Model F keyboards.

Montblanc the Model F space bar heaviness was an issue just with the XT and AT style Model F's. Yes I looked into plastic cases but the mold costs for such large parts is very high and there is little to no interest in plastic. I do not think the case affects the Model F sound too much compared to the sample to sample variation of Model F's. There are a number of projects to quiet and dampen the Model F which could be useful when modding your Brand New Model F.

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Zed

02 Nov 2017, 00:08

Ellipse wrote: Yes Zed I am fine with additional language options for the key sets to make sure everyone can use these Model F keyboards.
Alright, Spanish (Latin America) is added to the list!

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Alpinist

02 Nov 2017, 00:22

Ellipse wrote: Yes Zed I am fine with additional language options for the key sets to make sure everyone can use these Model F keyboards.

Montblanc the Model F space bar heaviness was an issue just with the XT and AT style Model F's. Yes I looked into plastic cases but the mold costs for such large parts is very high and there is little to no interest in plastic. I do not think the case affects the Model F sound too much compared to the sample to sample variation of Model F's. There are a number of projects to quiet and dampen the Model F which could be useful when modding your Brand New Model F.
Thank you (and Zed) about the language options. Glad to hear about the spacebar and I will have do a search for those dampening projects. As I mentioned I don't care about the noise level but about the pitch but I assume some of those mods could help would work on that direction. Tx for the heads up. I'll look it up.

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depletedvespene

02 Nov 2017, 00:28

Zed wrote:
Ellipse wrote: Yes Zed I am fine with additional language options for the key sets to make sure everyone can use these Model F keyboards.
Alright, Spanish (Latin America) is added to the list!
Excellent! Don't be afraid to ask me if you have any further doubts about either of those layouts.

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Elrick

02 Nov 2017, 00:32

Ellipse wrote: There are a number of projects to quiet and dampen the Model F which could be useful when modding your Brand New Model F.
That is beginning to sound like pure HERESY here :shock: .

The Model-F Space-bar needs to stay as is, LOUD and TRIUMPHANT.

This is why the Model-F has it's fanboys that enjoy every square millimeter of it's design and sound. When using this keyboard it isn't for desperate Pron Zealots to download boring videos of Sasha Grey in secret. You will instead show everyone in that area, house or street, who is using that Model-F Keyboard and you will be proud.

The F77 has to sound like GOD's thunder, every time you separate a word or a number in a line or sentence.

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Alpinist

02 Nov 2017, 00:39

AGREED!! Let's shake the pillars of the earth!

It's all about the pitch, not about the volume.
I just want it to roar like a lion, not to squeal like a pig! :)

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Elrick

02 Nov 2017, 00:47

Montblanc wrote: AGREED!! Let's shake the pillars of the earth!

It's all about the pitch, not about the volume.
I just want it to roar like a lion, not to squeal like a pig! :)
LOVE this guy, YES when these keyboards get sent to those residing in California we want to see the whole San Andreas Fault line shake the West Coast, all because of the intense usage of Ellipse's Model-F Keyboard 8-) .

This Keyboard will truly re-model the landscape of input devices, when it's finally released.

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depletedvespene

02 Nov 2017, 00:50

This reminds me that I need to get a new house as close to the center of the local San Ramón fault as I can. Why should the northern hemisphere be the only one to get such a remodeling?

PancakeMSTR

02 Nov 2017, 17:09

Ellipse wrote: Yes the key caps and also I am working on the capacitive PCB material. I spoke to several experts and laminate suppliers this month and am looking into making the PCBs as close to the originals as possible.

Even though you already have a complete set of PCBs ready and waiting? Why bother with this extra task? At least upload a recording of the audio difference if this is so important.

Ellipse

03 Nov 2017, 00:15

Once I get a sample of the new material I will compare it to see if it is worth the change to make the click even better. It may be the case that there is little to no difference. It's not delaying the project so please do not worry.

PancakeMSTR

03 Nov 2017, 16:59

Ellipse wrote: Once I get a sample of the new material I will compare it to see if it is worth the change to make the click even better. It may be the case that there is little to no difference. It's not delaying the project so please do not worry.

Ellipse why don't you make the recording and see what the community has to say about it? What do you stand do lose?

Shihatsu

06 Nov 2017, 23:36

This is Ellipse's baby, not a community project. He did not made any compromises in the past, and i very much hope that he will not do any in the future. I do mislike your demanding undertone quite much....

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Elrick

07 Nov 2017, 01:11

Shihatsu wrote: This is Ellipse's baby, not a community project. He did not made any compromises in the past, and i very much hope that he will not do any in the future. I do mislike your demanding undertone quite much....
I think it's more to do with being extremely ANXIOUS about getting this keyboard in his hands as soon as possible.

Have absolute confidence with Ellipse because he use to re-do old, beat up, destroyed Model-M's, that were sitting in toxic waste dumps for decades and he cleans them up like new. Replaces all the internal components and cleans the casing, back plate was painted and restored and all the keys and springs were cleaned or replaced perfectly.

In fact you send him your debauched Model-M and it's returned in a couple months completely restored into a new, virginal condition. It's then returned to you, like it's been untouched or unmolested by anyone.

Completely confident that he will deliver on this venture despite all of our agonizing exclamations for this Model-F Baby 8-) .

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depletedvespene

07 Nov 2017, 01:18

Elrick wrote: In fact you send him your debauched Model-M and it's returned in a couple months completely restored into a new, virginal condition. It's then returned to you, like it's been untouched or unmolested by anyone.
Uuuuh... Ellipse, do you still take orders for repairwork? :)

Ellipse

07 Nov 2017, 01:38

Sorry I don't

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enrique.aliaga

07 Nov 2017, 02:17

Ellipse wrote:Sorry I don't
[CRYING FACE]


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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Techno Trousers
100,000,000 actuations

07 Nov 2017, 04:01

Unicomp used to offer refurbishment services for older Model M keyboards, but looking at their site, I'm not sure if that's still the case.

PancakeMSTR

07 Nov 2017, 20:19

Shihatsu wrote: This is Ellipse's baby, not a community project. He did not made any compromises in the past, and i very much hope that he will not do any in the future. I do mislike your demanding undertone quite much....
I've literally heard this called a community project before. So which is it?

yac

08 Nov 2017, 23:25

I think we can look at this like any other group buy, albeit one that has attracted a considerable amount of attention. But in the end everything is up to Ellipse. It's his project, and we as a community can ask for things but i don't think we should feel we have any real sway in matters.

Ellipse

08 Nov 2017, 23:30

The springs are moving back to China. I found a factory willing to make the springs and am ordering samples this week.

They said they have the advanced equipment to inspect each spring during production, like the US factory.

The only US supplier of the old standard spring material would have required two months to produce the wire (not counting the time to make all the springs) so I am going back to China to make sure we stay on track. This large factory in China has enough capacity to make the needed 100,000+ springs in 1-2 weeks!

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wobbled

08 Nov 2017, 23:49

Ellipse wrote: The springs are moving back to China. I found a factory willing to make the springs and am ordering samples this week.

They said they have the advanced equipment to inspect each spring during production, like the US factory.

The only US supplier of the old standard spring material would have required two months to produce the wire (not counting the time to make all the springs) so I am going back to China to make sure we stay on track. This large factory in China has enough capacity to make the needed 100,000+ springs in 1-2 weeks!
That is fantastic news! Thank you for going with the faster option :D

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Elrick

08 Nov 2017, 23:51

Ellipse wrote: The only US supplier of the old standard spring material would have required two months to produce the wire (not counting the time to make all the springs) so I am going back to China to make sure we stay on track. This large factory in China has enough capacity to make the needed 100,000+ springs in 1-2 weeks!
All that matters now are the SPRINGS because that will either make or break this keyboard :twisted: .

Be sure whoever manufactures these springs, finally delivers the EXACT Model-F quality that everyone expects here, within this Group Buy.

Ellipse

10 Nov 2017, 00:36

The spring samples have been ordered! I ordered half the samples with heat treatment and half without so that we can eliminate heat treating as a source of the sound differences. The samples should ship by DHL Express by the end of next week.

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Mattr567

10 Nov 2017, 02:18

Are these new china springs made with the old wire standard or no?

Ellipse

10 Nov 2017, 02:58

Yes - the old standard

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Elrick

10 Nov 2017, 10:51

Ellipse wrote: Yes - the old standard
This is the ONLY Standard worth considering with this keyboard.

Anything less would be a crime against humanity here to be denied further, the absolute delight of owning and using an authentic Model-F keyboard :D .

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