F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards

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Scarpia

12 Dec 2018, 23:39

wobbled wrote: You don't need his name scribbled on some random sticker to know who was the mastermind behind this project. That's a lot of extra work for him. I want these keyboards asap, lets stop adding pointless shit to his workload.
+1

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darkcruix

13 Dec 2018, 15:10

Looking forward to get my hands on the NMF keyboards. No need for any QA checkboxes. We all know they have been tested and approved by Ellipse (and it will be on the delivery papers anyway).

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Elrick

15 Dec 2018, 02:20

darkcruix wrote: Looking forward to get my hands on the NMF keyboards. No need for any QA checkboxes. We all know they have been tested and approved by Ellipse (and it will be on the delivery papers anyway).
MY RANT BEGINS (it shall never end);

Love the immense hypocrisy within this section, ALL about getting something for oneself and SCREW everyone else.

Just goes to show this place isn't any different to Geekflack and a hundred other places on the net. Because it's all about getting these keyboards as FAST as possible, without any documentation whatsoever. The delivery papers will be lost because it's like every other boring document that everyone receives for tax purposes.

The funny thing is, these very same fools proclaiming about authentic IBM older hardware, which has documented casings, PCB's and whatnot, which are highly prized and worshiped by these very same hypocrites, go figure.

These very same tossers right here and now, whom are disallowing Ellipse to include these very same documents and details on this hardware that is being produced.

It's like taking these very same morons back in time, to work at any IBM factory and recommending to the management that no one will NEED any information on the parts and pieces being installed in any Beamspring Keyboard and then Model-F's and Model-M's because it WON'T matter and no one will care.

Thank god these same lazy and very selfish people don't work anywhere, producing anything of decency for anyone. Quality hardware will always be worshiped beyond 2050 because then, the people in the future will be looking into a "Time Capsule" of what was achieved in 2018 instead of listening to lazy idiots, who's main decision was to deny any information to them in the far future, regarding this unique keyboard.

Suspect this keyboard deserves the respect and careful documentation that future individuals would appreciate immensely. Remember it's fine to only concentrate on TODAY for immediate gratification but once you're dead and gone, the only thing left IS the Hardware and the Documentation.

Which no one will know about unless detailed evidence is provided for and if the world actually survives to 2050 (or the Net still exists) it would be sad to know the no one will know anything about this keyboard, except it was made by some no name IBM facility in the middle of nowhere by no one significant. Hence the guessing and stupid assumptions will begin or maybe it disappears into some wild story of Aliens and Gods clashing on some Mountain peak to produce this Keyboard.

Set the story straight for the far Future. The fanatics of tomorrow are probably not yet born, so for them you provide this vital piece of information that if it survives becomes the cornerstone of Keyboard Civilization.

Can you imagine these very same people here on this forum (having access to a Tardis) going back in time to convince everyone in Egypt, why bother with ALL the Monuments and Hieroglyphics because it takes too long and no one will read them.....

Sometimes it's best to ignore selfishness and self importance of certain individuals (those that never put the time in to build this keyboard) but instead, concentrate on the future and the legacy they deserve in knowing whom had created and built this keyboard from scratch.
Last edited by Elrick on 15 Dec 2018, 04:51, edited 1 time in total.

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Elrick

15 Dec 2018, 04:44

Just thought of another extra to add to this.

In the future when anyone gets anything, WE as a nation are conditioned to accept some norms, on how keyboards are made and how quick they could be done. Like today, all Cherry mass produced keyboards are done at a factory on a production line (in China) very quickly.

That is the norm now but anyone who has NO understanding of Model-F keyboard design and construction, has no idea behind what has been done to produce that keyboard, that they hold in front of them on their desktop.

Once you provide some documentation showing ALL the procedures, the testing, the design and constant reappraisal of that keyboard before it got actually made. Then you will get a genuine interest for this whole 'Journey' in producing this keyboard during 2018. The keyboard becomes FAR more valuable not just to the original owners but to the future ones yet to own this wonderful example of ancient US tech.

Just surprised that everyone here on DT thinks this Model-F was so EASY to make and produce and think that NO one wants to know about it for the future. Like it's the same as any other mass produced 'Junk' keyboard that you could buy from Newegg, PCCasegear or Mechanical Keyboards.

It beggars belief that current society, in which we all live in, doesn't want to know anything in detail other than the status quo of fake info, streaming from Facebook and Twitter, 24/7.

Who knows how long both of those platforms will last but hard copy, will always be there and shall be appreciated far more than empty hashtags and stupid comments (mine included).

andrea-i

15 Dec 2018, 06:45

Elrick,I think many members here actually expressed interest in a book from ellipse on his model F journey.

But honestly, there's people in this thread waiting for this keyboard since years, I think everyone who committed to this buy has the minimum right to at least express their opinion and aid Ellipse's work their own way.
I for once, suggested starting to sell components separately as soon as they arrived, heresy to some, but I do not care much for Ellipse's touch as a board QA inspector, I would rather see him designing a whole new model F because he's a brilliant designer, but that's just me : )
Nor would I care about sound differences with the original F, I did dismantle my F and put it back together, honestly I did not find any difference from before, and surely it must have sounded differently somehow.

It's true, we live in a fast paced and careless world, and to some (including me) these old boards remind us of when stuff used to be made with less hurry and more attention to quality.
That being said, you have to expect everyone in this thread to have their own meter on detail obsession, and opinions and discussions, when made in a constructive manner, surely can't hurt Ellipse if not otherwise.

__red__

15 Dec 2018, 16:45

andrea-i wrote: It's true, we live in a fast paced and careless world
Just a comment here, and it's important.

In 50 years the odds are that you / your family will have no pictures or videos of you.

The cloud is a lie. Hard drives fail. Picture / Video / Hardware formats expire.

Seriously - print your photos. For your data, follow the 3-2-1 rule. Minimum of 3 copies, in 2 different formats, at least 1 offsite.

I was using crashplan to backup all my kids pictures and videos and then one day when I was out of State they sent me an email saying "Your machine hasn't connected in 6 months, re-connect it within 5 days or we delete your data". 2Tb of Photos and videos GONE.

If I didn't have multiple backups I'd be done.

I do forensics as my day job. I've lost count the number of grown men that have openly wept in my cube when they brought me their crash HD and I couldn't get photos back for them. In one case, he lost EVERY photo that he had of the first two years of his child's life.

Please - think about it.

andrea-i

15 Dec 2018, 19:13

so true, __red__! Since a few years I go straight from my camera to the print service, digital or film, I just get them printed and I don't actually bother storing my photos on my computer anymore.
People coming to my house can actually SEE my photos, how cool is that : )
Again, some things they really got them right back in the days, like the F.

User avatar
Scarpia

15 Dec 2018, 19:52

To Elrick: everyone here paid the same as you for their Ellipsesaver. Please check your entitled and arrogant attitude. You have no more right to make demands on this project than anyone else who ordered one - because none of us do; Ellipse is free to complete this project to HIS standards and not yours, and to include extras or not, and frankly I had enough of your incessant pathetic brown-nosing in this thread before you took it upon yourself to make the whole damn thing about you. I have held my tongue until now, but that one crossed the line of decency for me.

With all the respect you deserve: fuck off Elrick.

Ellipse

16 Dec 2018, 00:27

Yes confirmed I'd like to put together a book/online resource including photos of the prototyping, production, assembly, and QC processes after all the orders go out. I will definitely be documenting the parts and such in writing and also through instructional/repair videos.

Yes agreed that backups in different media and locations are very important. I back up to hard drives, LTO5 tapes, blu-ray, and cloud - in multiple locations!

User avatar
Elrick

16 Dec 2018, 00:51

Scarpia wrote: To Elrick: everyone here paid the same as you for their Ellipsesaver. Please check your entitled and arrogant attitude.
When you run 4 workshops on 4 Minesites at the same time, YES that attitude stays with you 24/7. Mainly because you cut through the bullshit quickly and sort out the chaff from any given situation.
Scarpia wrote: You have no more right to make demands on this project than anyone else who ordered one - because none of us do; Ellipse is free to complete this project to HIS standards and not yours, and to include extras or not, and frankly I had enough of your incessant pathetic brown-nosing in this thread before you took it upon yourself to make the whole damn thing about you. I have held my tongue until now, but that one crossed the line of decency for me.
Bravo you actually developed some balls here, pity it doesn't coincide with this project in any way. Expressing the given facts was my whole point here that certain individuals chose to ignore. Also Ellipse may of course be sick of this Model-F which he alone have wasted countless hours on. For him, just getting rid of it may be his greatest feat yet, don't blame him at all.

Also giving credit to those that actually are DOING something, is never known as 'brown-nosing' but as a mark of 'Respect' something that seems alien to your own age group. Maybe through extreme jealousy of someone else that has achieved something Great in their life that measures way above, their own failures to achieve anything. Quite common with some folk here as evidenced by yourself.
Scarpia wrote: With all the respect you deserve: fuck off Elrick.
You first or when a full refund is provided up front but either way, expressing a viewpoint here will never end, called 'free-speech' - look it up on Google.

After all, like you said before WE all paid for this up front, to sit around and do nothing, might be you favourite pass time but I'm willing to front up with extra costs, for Ellipse to document HIS keyboard. After all, he might need that because doing anything these days 'costs' and no one should be denied some compensation/payment in helping to provide something 'extra', even to someone like you.

squizzler

16 Dec 2018, 09:50

Elrick wrote: Thank god these same lazy and very selfish people don't work anywhere, producing anything of decency for anyone. Quality hardware will always be worshiped beyond 2050 because then, the people in the future will be looking into a "Time Capsule" of what was achieved in 2018 instead of listening to lazy idiots, who's main decision was to deny any information to them in the far future, regarding this unique keyboard.

Suspect this keyboard deserves the respect and careful documentation that future individuals would appreciate immensely. Remember it's fine to only concentrate on TODAY for immediate gratification but once you're dead and gone, the only thing left IS the Hardware and the Documentation.

Which no one will know about unless detailed evidence is provided for and if the world actually survives to 2050 (or the Net still exists) it would be sad to know the no one will know anything about this keyboard, except it was made by some no name IBM facility in the middle of nowhere by no one significant. Hence the guessing and stupid assumptions will begin or maybe it disappears into some wild story of Aliens and Gods clashing on some Mountain peak to produce this Keyboard.

Set the story straight for the far Future. The fanatics of tomorrow are probably not yet born, so for them you provide this vital piece of information that if it survives becomes the cornerstone of Keyboard Civilization.

Can you imagine these very same people here on this forum (having access to a Tardis) going back in time to convince everyone in Egypt, why bother with ALL the Monuments and Hieroglyphics because it takes too long and no one will read them.....

Sometimes it's best to ignore selfishness and self importance of certain individuals (those that never put the time in to build this keyboard) but instead, concentrate on the future and the legacy they deserve in knowing whom had created and built this keyboard from scratch.
I just found about this project, and wanted to check in. The above gives me an ideal opportunity to do so.

I am thinking of ordering this as a working tool, not as something to put on a pedestal and worship as if it were the second coming of Christ. It's a keyboard for crying out loud! I'm really just waiting for UK currency to settle down from brexit fiasco.

If this project is half as good as seems likely I can save myself from a lifetime filling the garden shed with a collection of keyboards, having to learn the characteristics of every ALPS switch ever made and having to soldier circuitboards all the time. Nothing wrong with those who do, of course, but I believe in certain areas in life you buy the best you can afford and I have been searching round for the right keyboard, and think this might be the holy grail based on various types I have used so far. It's also rare to buy a computer peripheral which might appreciate in value over time.

I wonder how many more people like me are not keyboard nerds but willing to buy such a keyboard? After all I only found it from a Chyros video on youtube by chance. I really only know enough from reading around (we also were an early household with a PC in the mid 1980's and may even have had one in the house back in the day) to know that these old IBM mechanisms are legendary. I've no doubt that Ellipse would make a killing if he marketed this to the Apple set (whose computers are all made of metal these days) or the sort of people who buy Bang and Olufsen hi-fi's. Whether he does so of course is his decision to make :)

One question: is the batch currently under production the first of two runs (as per July Popular Mechanics article) or one-off now?

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wobbled

16 Dec 2018, 10:22

Elrick, if Ellipse wants to do something, he will. If he is capable of organising the reproduction of Model Fs then he is more than capable of deciding for himself what 'extras' to include. Your money paid for the keyboard, and nothing else. Ellipse never advertised anything else, and therefore you are not entitled to anything else.
I paid my money years ago, as did so many others, we want to see something in return for it, we don't want someone invading the thread with ideas that neither make nor break this project.

Just calm down a bit and let Ellipse run this shit the way he wants to.

Ellipse

17 Dec 2018, 05:53

Great squizzler! We are still in the early bird round which has faced factory production delays (in summary: parts non-functioning and/or not to spec, had to cancel a couple factories, toss out bad molds, and start over earlier this year). However production successfully finished earlier this year and we are now in the assembly phase.

Yes everything comes preassembled and ready to go, though some keys may pop out of place during shipping so you may need to remove and re-seat a few of them.

Currently you can customize and order an F77 or F62 through www.ModelFKeyboards.com and see the project updates there as well.

User avatar
JP!

17 Dec 2018, 19:53

Ellipse wrote: ... However production successfully finished earlier this year and we are now in the assembly phase.
:D
images.jpg
images.jpg (12.46 KiB) Viewed 4186 times

Ellipse

18 Dec 2018, 05:26

Some timeline updates from the factory - we still have quite a bit of assembly time ahead of us:

The next batch of spring samples should arrive next week - hopefully the spring attacher machines 2 and 3 are assembling everything to spec!

Then they are going to start doing some test assemblies of a few full keyboards and testing the different configuration options.

Then in late January they start their long break for the new year.

After that I am hoping assembly can ramp up. Depending on assembly quality and speed I may have them assemble a few hundred and send them over right away instead of waiting for all 1500 or so to be assembled - not sure just yet if this is feasible.

Meanwhile this year I have been consulting with dye sublimation industry experts and an original IBM Model F keyboard production manager and ordering parts to design and build my dye sub system. Progress has been slower than expected. I had someone help me by building a temporary jig but the results were not to spec, and based on my conversations I decided I needed to build the real rig and then continue iterating from there.

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Scarpia

18 Dec 2018, 07:09

Sounds great Ellipse - thanks for the update!

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tron

18 Dec 2018, 16:56

Ellipse wrote: Some timeline updates from the factory - we still have quite a bit of assembly time ahead of us:

The next batch of spring samples should arrive next week - hopefully the spring attacher machines 2 and 3 are assembling everything to spec!

Then they are going to start doing some test assemblies of a few full keyboards and testing the different configuration options.

Then in late January they start their long break for the new year.

After that I am hoping assembly can ramp up. Depending on assembly quality and speed I may have them assemble a few hundred and send them over right away instead of waiting for all 1500 or so to be assembled - not sure just yet if this is feasible.

Meanwhile this year I have been consulting with dye sublimation industry experts and an original IBM Model F keyboard production manager and ordering parts to design and build my dye sub system. Progress has been slower than expected. I had someone help me by building a temporary jig but the results were not to spec, and based on my conversations I decided I needed to build the real rig and then continue iterating from there.

Wow, I was thinking the dye sub was going to be outsourced to another producer like EPBT. It makes sense you would need custom equipment to get OG quality. Please post pic and videos of the dye sub rig when you get it up and running. I've been interested in the process ever since I read about Busgamer's DIY dye sub machine and the trial-and-error it took to get good results.

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darkcruix

18 Dec 2018, 18:44

tron wrote: Please post pic and videos of the dye sub rig when you get it up and running. I've been interested in the process ever since I read about Busgamer's DIY dye sub machine and the trial-and-error it took to get good results.
I'd like to ask for the same - very interested in updates and pictures of the dye-sub. Getting it done, without feathering and bleeding is a tough one.
So glad that Ellipse is doing this with his eye for detail. So excited!

Ellipse

25 Dec 2018, 02:48

Attached is a page from the assembly guide to be sent to the factory this week (and will also be included in the product manuals). It specifies the way I close the new Model F inner assemblies with hand tools and without damaging the powdercoating (they may come up with a better way, through adapting their available factory tooling). For the factory I have been writing a full manual this month on how to assemble each type of keyboard configuration (e.g. QC inspection guidelines, which barrels have flippers, which keys go in each barrel for each type of layout option, the makeup of each key set, etc.).

The factory still needs work on the attacher machines per the latest attached spring/flipper examples sent this week. It is frustrating that they have not gotten this right but as noted earlier I will not compromise one of the most important parts of the project to rush assembly. I have sent the factory a video of the sound differences with good and bad springs (as noted and uploaded to DT earlier) to reinforce the necessity of keeping to the assembly specifications. Unfortunately Machine 1's success rate is no longer high so all three machines need some adjustment. I have sent the factory some suggestions. I confirmed that the sample spring/flipper assemblies themselves when reseated by hand do pass inspection so it is not an issue with the springs or flippers. Here's a link to the spring attacher in case you haven't seen it already:
If anyone has any recommendations on how to improve the attaching process please do PM me. I suggested to the factory a very thin 0.2mm metal stencil type part to hold at the base of the flippers so the spring does not get pressed down too far.
Attachments
assembly manual.jpg
assembly manual.jpg (132.96 KiB) Viewed 3524 times

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Hypersphere

25 Dec 2018, 19:24

@Ellipse: What would it take to do this by hand? Would manual assembly be feasible?

Ellipse

25 Dec 2018, 20:18

Unfortunately no due to time cost

Vizir

26 Dec 2018, 15:11

@ellipse, did you get my pm?

bleair

31 Dec 2018, 03:49

Ellipse,

Your attitude and focus on this project is great. I personally feel that getting the flipper assembly "right" is just about the most important aspect in terms of key feel, so please take whatever time you need to ensure the end result meets your standard!

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Cubelia

31 Dec 2018, 11:27

Finally decided to pull the trigger on an F77 after acquiring a Model F AT,hopefully the project will be go smoothly without any hiccups. Just a small question:is there any possibility that no keycap and/or no legend keyboard orders be delivered earlier than the ones with legends?

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FXT
XT

31 Dec 2018, 21:06

Cubelia wrote: Finally decided to pull the trigger on an F77 after acquiring a Model F AT,hopefully the project will be go smoothly without any hiccups. Just a small question:is there any possibility that no keycap and/or no legend keyboard orders be delivered earlier than the ones with legends?
I believe that Ellipse said all the orders would ship at the same time but that might have changed.

Ellipse

01 Jan 2019, 20:28

We are currently 3 away from 1500 Brand New Model F Keyboards ordered! Thanks for joining the project Cubelia! Yes FXT is right

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sgtpopwell

01 Jan 2019, 20:37

Ellipse,

That's exciting news to ring in the new year with!

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Nuum

01 Jan 2019, 22:36

I'm thinking about finally ordering an F77 as well. I'd like to have the layout with the split right shift (HHKB style), but with split left shift and ISO enter as well. Also I'd like the Backspace to be not split, so 2u wide. Would that be possible? How would I order it?

I believe this has been asked before, but I can't find a post about that.

Ellipse

05 Jan 2019, 04:58

Great Nuum! Please order 10 units of "$1 increments" and specify this custom layout in the order notes (along with your preferred language layout: "ISO Enter (vertical enter and split Left Shift) and HHKB-Style Split Right Shift, 2U backspace"

Ellipse

05 Jan 2019, 05:12

Great work SneakyRobb for finding out the origins of the "F" and "M" and posting an interesting article!

Looks like IBM did the one key at a time sound tests with each assembled keyboard as I've asked the factory to do for this project.
SneakyRobb wrote: I asked the IBM Archives and the guy there Max who is cool referred me to a copy of the IBM SiteLine June 1982 magazine. It discusses how the Keyboard F Mechanisn Manufacturing is doing more with less versus previous keyboards, Specifically the IBM Model B keyboard mechanism and the Model E keyboard mechanism.

It would appear that Model F and Model M are sequential models of keyboard mechanism.

The article mentions that Model B keyboards have an absurd 9 moving parts, where Model F only has 3. I assume the cap, spring and flipper.

So it is actually pretty likely that "M" doesn't reference Membrane at all.

https://imgur.com/a/D9CN4lX

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