F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards

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webwit
Wild Duck

03 Mar 2020, 22:37

Here's one experiment and possible firmware bug why a simultaneous release fails on the F62, where it could be a matter of a few microseconds or single scan cycle registering the release of a one key over anther to cause this problem, where it does not on a HHKB:

On the HHKB: If I press Fn and then ` and keep them pressed, it keeps Del pressed. When I then release Fn but keep ` pressed, it keeps registering Del's.

On the F62: If I press Fn and then ` and keep them pressed, it keeps Del pressed. When I then release Fn but keep ` pressed, it starts registering ` being pressed.

It shouldn't do that, and problem is fixed.

Or something like that. Smells even stronger to the software now.

EDIT: Shift and Ctrl behave the same way on both the HHKB and the F62, that is, like the Fn on the F62, when you release the controlling key but not the other key, it starts to register the other pressed key, but after a brief pause. That pause might fix it too.

Dikkus

04 Mar 2020, 08:00

I received my F62 a day ago and have been typing on it since. Initial impressions are very good - it feels great, the construction is solid, and the presentation was well done. The case has some blotches on it, but, as they are not readily visible without close examination, it doesn't bug me so much. A few of the larger keys like the left shift and the Caps Lock (Ctrl on my model) key bind a bit, and multiple reseatings don't seem to fix it. It's something I've run into on other buckling spring keyboards so it isn't unique to this model. The spacebar made a pretty awful racket when I first received it - very rattly and not thocky at all - but after a careful reseating it sounds great now. Like a log (https://files.catbox.moe/l2wf5j.mp4)

The only true worry I have at the moment is that my 1 and 5 keys will, at times, completely lock up and not take any input. It seems to happen randomly, as sometimes I'll go to press 1 or 5 and receive no response at all. This seems to occur regardless of the voltage values, as I've tried the recommended range of 122-126 and still get this problem on occasion. I am now trying a voltage value of 120. I have also tried removing and reinserting the springs. The problem hasn't popped up again since switching to a voltage of 120, so fingers crossed.

EDIT: Nope, still having the issue. Frustrating.

Ellipse

04 Mar 2020, 16:34

Dikkus have you tried the debounce 6 firmware? Have you tried on another computer?

Also what did you do to the space bar besides re-seat it? And how did you re-seat it?

Dikkus

04 Mar 2020, 18:52

Ellipse wrote:
04 Mar 2020, 16:34
Dikkus have you tried the debounce 6 firmware? Have you tried on another computer?

Also what did you do to the space bar besides re-seat it? And how did you re-seat it?
Yes. Updating the firmware was one of the first things I tried. I did try reproducing this on my laptop and ran into the same issue as well, though it did seem to take longer (probably merely an issue of chance rather than anything significant) Nothing out of the ordinary was done to the spacebar - I reseated it exactly the same way that you did on the video I believe.

I should note that the last few times this happened, it didn't merely just lock up, but acted quite jittery. I.e. I would hit 1 and it would sometimes not output anything at all, or it would output "1" multiple times. Sometimes leaving the keyboard unplugged for 10 seconds and replugging it afterwards fixes the issue, but other times the only thing that seems to fix the problem is popping off the keycap and reinserting it.

EDIT: Here's a video of the problem in action, and my temporary "solution" of taking off the keycap and reinserting it. This always seems to fix the problem for about an hour or so.

https://files.catbox.moe/k7zmyr.webm

Ellipse

05 Mar 2020, 00:41

Maybe the two springs need replacement or re-seating?

Dye sub update: I want to get the dye sublimation up and running and then close up the early bird round this month. I am making good progress on the new dye sub setup and hope to start mass sublimation in April. Again my apologies that it has taken longer than expected.

So far 140 Brand New Model F Keyboards have shipped - every complete order that can ship, has shipped (not all unprinted keys have shipped as many are in the second shipment of the early bird round, expected in a couple months, or they have printed items in the order).

If anyone prefers a keyboard that can ship immediately, I can ship many types of HHKB style split right shift and split backspace (plus some 2U backspace) options with unprinted keys - feel free to PM me to ask if a specific configuration is available.

dad

05 Mar 2020, 09:24

Ellipse wrote:
05 Mar 2020, 00:41
If anyone prefers a keyboard that can ship immediately, I can ship many types of HHKB style split right shift and split backspace (plus some 2U backspace) options with unprinted keys - feel free to PM me to ask if a specific configuration is available.
Thanks for the update.

You mean that if I ordered from the early bird round (with printed keys etc) I can change my order to unprinted keys and not wait for the early bird round to be ready? But...I've paid already for the printed keys options, etc - so maybe it's better to wait.

Smth again happened to your site: number of orders of F77 disappeared.

Dikkus

05 Mar 2020, 09:25

Dikkus wrote:
04 Mar 2020, 18:52
Ellipse wrote:
04 Mar 2020, 16:34
Dikkus have you tried the debounce 6 firmware? Have you tried on another computer?

Also what did you do to the space bar besides re-seat it? And how did you re-seat it?
Yes. Updating the firmware was one of the first things I tried. I did try reproducing this on my laptop and ran into the same issue as well, though it did seem to take longer (probably merely an issue of chance rather than anything significant) Nothing out of the ordinary was done to the spacebar - I reseated it exactly the same way that you did on the video I believe.

I should note that the last few times this happened, it didn't merely just lock up, but acted quite jittery. I.e. I would hit 1 and it would sometimes not output anything at all, or it would output "1" multiple times. Sometimes leaving the keyboard unplugged for 10 seconds and replugging it afterwards fixes the issue, but other times the only thing that seems to fix the problem is popping off the keycap and reinserting it.

EDIT: Here's a video of the problem in action, and my temporary "solution" of taking off the keycap and reinserting it. This always seems to fix the problem for about an hour or so.

https://files.catbox.moe/k7zmyr.webm
I ended up taking the entire keyboard apart and reseated all the flippers/springs. The reassembly was honestly a pain in the ass, I guess there's probably a trick to it, but I gave up and used clamps instead and that made it much easier.

The process *seems* to have fixed my issue so far. Hopefully that's the end of it.

Ellipse

05 Mar 2020, 15:59

Yes dad that is correct - fixed the number of orders.

Dikkus that is good news. Sorry for the extra work you had to do. There is a way to remove only the spring without having to take apart the keyboard - I posted some instructional videos a few weeks back. My guess is that debris may have fallen on the PCB in those areas (requiring the disassembly you did), and/or the springs needed adjustment.

daphnis

05 Mar 2020, 16:35

Is it possible to create a fifth layer?

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tentator

05 Mar 2020, 16:44

daphnis wrote:
05 Mar 2020, 16:35
Is it possible to create a fifth layer?
I guess that for that you'd need to swap the controller with a commonsense one.. :)

Ellipse

05 Mar 2020, 19:02

And here are some unique variations of keyboards that have gone out in recent weeks:

The first keyboard (first two photos below) has original IBM XT keys installed, with blank keys for the non-XT keys.
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User avatar
Redmaus
Gotta start somewhere

06 Mar 2020, 06:30

Ellipse wrote:
05 Mar 2020, 19:02
And here are some unique variations of keyboards that have gone out in recent weeks:

The first keyboard (first two photos below) has original IBM XT keys installed, with blank keys for the non-XT keys.
Spoiler:
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2020-02-14_16-38-00.jpg
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Any pictures of the gray(non-industrial color) cases? :)

Ellipse

06 Mar 2020, 16:21

Not yet on a shipped keyboard - would anyone like to be the first silver gray order to ship (split right shift, unprinted keys or no keys only)? Feel free to PM me.

Below are some earlier photos of the silver gray cases:
finished powdercoated cases (7) - Copy.jpg
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finished powdercoated cases (14) - Copy.jpg
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Gnho

07 Mar 2020, 05:10

Received my F77 today. Typing on it right now...

I do not have any picture, video, or sound test at the moment but I want to leave a message to thank Ellipse. He has been very patient with me and provided the best service any one-man operation can provide. I already admired his endeavor before I received the board, but my admiration is at a different level having the board right in front of me. THANK YOU!

As someone who's relatively new to the keyboard world and never had a Model F before, I don't think I'm qualified to do a detailed review. What is abundantly clear to me is that this board has real value. It is just crazy to me that people spend so much money on frivolous caps, parts, and cases, and that Ellipse still have keyboards in stock. I am very tempted to order a F62 from him in the next couple of months, and maybe more as a gift to my dearest friends.

Thank you again, Ellipse, and thank everyone for making this happened!

User avatar
Redmaus
Gotta start somewhere

07 Mar 2020, 05:50

Ellipse wrote:
06 Mar 2020, 16:21
Not yet on a shipped keyboard - would anyone like to be the first silver gray order to ship (split right shift, unprinted keys or no keys only)? Feel free to PM me.

Below are some earlier photos of the silver gray cases:

finished powdercoated cases (7) - Copy.jpg
finished powdercoated cases (14) - Copy.jpg
Looks great, I'll love having it on my desk. Also red was an option? Super cool

daphnis

07 Mar 2020, 15:05

Thought I would order space bars and 1.5U keys from Unicomp and
try to fit in an extra modifier.

https://www.pckeyboard.com/page/product/SB
https://www.pckeyboard.com/page/product/mwide

Am I right that I need the small space bar pre 7/2013?

The 1.5U key comes in "grey" and "pebble". Which of these is
the darker colour in the "regular" set from Ellipse?

The space bar, I think, should be "pearl"?

Dikkus

07 Mar 2020, 16:34

daphnis wrote:
07 Mar 2020, 15:05
Thought I would order space bars and 1.5U keys from Unicomp and
try to fit in an extra modifier.

https://www.pckeyboard.com/page/product/SB
https://www.pckeyboard.com/page/product/mwide

Am I right that I need the small space bar pre 7/2013?

The 1.5U key comes in "grey" and "pebble". Which of these is
the darker colour in the "regular" set from Ellipse?

The space bar, I think, should be "pearl"?
I don't have a pebble or grey to compare with, but I do have a few "pearl" blanks from Unicomp. A warning: they will be ever so slightly different in color.

https://files.catbox.moe/iuol7s.jpg
Left is a blank from my F62, but the one of the right is a "pearl" blank from Unicomp.

daphnis

07 Mar 2020, 17:41

Thanks, Dikkus.

I wonder whether, if there is enough interest, it would be
feasible to produce these spacebars and 1.5Us in matching
colours. I don't know whether the long space bar was chosen for
the sake of symmetry, but it does make it a bit of a pain to
reach the right modifier closest to the bar. The left one is
reached by bending the thumb a little, but to reach the right
one has to move the whole hand.

Ellipse

07 Mar 2020, 23:39

Thanks for the kind words Gnho. I am always glad to hear from those who enjoy using their new Model F! This project has taken nearly five years and it is good to know that people appreciate the effort put into the project to have a Brand New Model F Keyboard. Please do share a photo of your keyboard setup if you don't mind!

Dye sublimation update:

I have successfully completed the dye sublimation setup! Below is a photo of the first sublimated key with the new setup. These are among the best results in any tests so far.

Upon close evaluation with my Meiji EMT stereo microscope, the sublimation is close to that of my favorite F122 from 1984. But I do not think we are yet at the point to do the comparison "can you tell the difference between which is new and which is the original?" as with the keyboard case finishes a while back (I think some people can tell the difference below). So the below photo is not indicative of the production legends.

As a recap, the decision to dye sublimate the keys myself was because of the lower quality and high unit cost of the sublimated samples I received as well as the industry professionals telling me they no longer have the equipment they used for key sublimation (in some cases) or are unwilling to sublimate non MX keys (in other cases). The goal was XT quality sublimation for one piece Model F keys. I failed to achieve consistent sublimation results over the past 10 months of testing and had been circling back and forth with a number of sublimation industry professionals, engineers, and one of the original Model F keyboard production supervisory engineers who has been a significant help to the project.

I've had to redesign and switch out much of the setup. I built some of it myself and had some of it built in the US while the CNC milled jigs were done in China. In the end I had to apply advice from different industries and online forums discussing a few industrial processes to get it to work. Even the smallest things caused trouble (one example: I thought one of the sensors was bad but it just didn't like switching power supplies so I had to get a linear regulated PS). My initial control panel setup involved analog devices only but that wasn't sufficient, so I had to design and build a digital control panel.

Hopefully I am not announcing success too soon (!); the next steps are additional sublimation tests to evaluate consistency of results, fine tuning the sublimation parameters, and then tests of a full key set and front printed keys. If all goes well I can order the sublimation transfer sheets and begin mass sublimation. Thanks again to everyone for being patient with this final part of the project.
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User avatar
tentator

08 Mar 2020, 00:23

left original, right ellipse
(what if I win? :))
But result is astonishing close!!

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ZedTheMan

08 Mar 2020, 00:58

I'm guessing left Ellipse, right Original, I'm taking the stuff on the right cap as being small bits of dust accumulated over decades.

User avatar
Redmaus
Gotta start somewhere

08 Mar 2020, 01:03

ZedTheMan wrote:
08 Mar 2020, 00:58
I'm guessing left Ellipse, right Original, I'm taking the stuff on the right cap as being small bits of dust accumulated over decades.
Ya I'm going with this too :D

kmnov2017

08 Mar 2020, 01:12

tentator wrote:
08 Mar 2020, 00:23
left original, right ellipse
(what if I win? :))
But result is astonishing close!!
I agree

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consolation

08 Mar 2020, 02:04

Right Original, would be my vote.

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JP!

08 Mar 2020, 02:40

left Ellipse, right original

Gnho

08 Mar 2020, 06:53

Image

(I wrote this mostly for a reddit audience. I feel people here are very experienced with vintage boards so my thought probably has little value)

My favorite board up until this point has been an FC660C+Silenced Purple Sliders+Heavy 6, which you can see in the background. I am also a big fan of HHKB Hybrid Type S. I have never used a Model F or M before so this is my very first buckling spring experience.

It is LOUD but pleasantly so. People have described the typing sound as music and I have to say they were not exaggerating. I would not bring it to a crowded office space but man, it's so enjoyable to listen to the sound.

It is HEAVY. In fact, it is much heavier than Heavy 6. I have to summon the power of Thor to lift it. The build is no joke. This thing is really buy it for life.

It does feel great to type on it. I am saying this with zero nostalgia. I have never used a buckling spring keyboard before. I can see myself rotating between this board and my topre boards. I would probably prefer this board for serious writing. Topre types more like a string instrument and this board types more like a percussion instrument if that makes any sense.

It is very easy to change the key map. Even easier than QMK configurator! I was a bit worried since I have never used xwhatsit's software before but it is so easy to use! You can change any part of the keymap instantly without having to flash the board.

User avatar
daedalus
Buckler Of Springs

08 Mar 2020, 13:30

My bet is that the left key is the original - the legends are a little thicker and less fuzzy around the edges.

That's based on me zooming in on the picture, I would have difficulty telling the difference if I saw these caps on two keyboards side by side.

If I am wrong, and the left is the new keycap, then I would be very pleasantly surprised :D

User avatar
tron

08 Mar 2020, 14:38

Nice job Ellipse. My vote is left Ellipse, right original.

dad

08 Mar 2020, 15:15

Ellipse wrote:
07 Mar 2020, 23:39

Hopefully I am not announcing success too soon (!); the next steps are additional sublimation tests to evaluate consistency of results, fine tuning the sublimation parameters, and then tests of a full key set and front printed keys.
And are all printed symbols going to be in only one color (black in case of regular keys)? Or additional symbols (national layouts) are in other color?

pandrew

10 Mar 2020, 02:43

Left Ellipse, Right Original.
I think the left side looks a little tilted, but I'm sure this will be fixed in the final product.

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