F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards

Ellipse

06 Apr 2020, 22:29

Thanks for the feedback minnusing.

I want to remind everyone that I stand by these keyboards and have been mailing parts replacements when needed so that no one is left with a nonworking keyboard.

If anyone has an issue I have been quite responsive on the forums and over PMs and emails.

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robo

06 Apr 2020, 23:25

Based solely on what's been posted here, I'd say Ellipse is not in the wrong in any way, but at the same time, having become de-facto customer service for these boards (along with every other possible role), it's sometimes better to err on the side of being magnanimous by default (especially when it makes no financial difference to you) while also accepting that among hundreds of customers, there's going to be a few that are dishonest, greedy, or unreasonably demanding. If you're going to provide a replacement, then just accept that there's a *possibility* that the customer is trying to get two for the price of one, and move on. It's the cost of doing business, and not scaring off further customers by trying to achieve "justice" with one difficult customer over a small item.

Retailers accept that a certain percentage of their product is going to be stolen from them - it's life. Obviously as a single person managing a labor of love project like this it's not quite the same, but still, something to think about.

russypt

07 Apr 2020, 10:55

Passing the time for my dye-sub F77, I refurbished an AT with bad foam, and would have bought the premade layer if I knew about it. If it had a glue joining line in it, who cares, that's functional, and in many cases, factory. I wouldn't even have thought of asking for a replacement. Imagine an angry Charlie Chaplin completely stripping down his new PC AT keyboard and miming in a blind rage at the joining line in the foam layer. IBM asks him to smash it with his cane, take a Polaroid, and mail it in for a new cane.

Plenty of bulky outdoor gear I use, if defective, customer service just asks you to cut it, send a picture, then recycle it. If I cut an edge-blemished large rain fly down to a medium and sent that picture to customer service for a free large replacement, what would they do? Hint: Not refund my money and send me a new large rain fly.

I know everyone feels a wee bit on edge lately, but the guy's been made more than whole on this, and that's good for everyone. Now can we let Ellipse get back to dye subbing keys? I'm getting jealous of the guys already rocking their their new whips. :)

Chalba

07 Apr 2020, 12:48

I agree with robo here. Coming from a retail background specifically in computer hardware, peripherals, etc.. Some customers are not to be reasoned with. You risk them damaging your reputation if you go to bat with too many of them even if they are all in the wrong. You have to pick your battles, and save your contentions for the most nasty, full scam artists. Make no mistake, there are plenty of them in the keeb community. There are plenty in all communities. Now let's focus on the next customers in line. =)

troglotype

07 Apr 2020, 20:29

Ellipse wrote:
06 Apr 2020, 22:29
I want to remind everyone that I stand by these keyboards and have been mailing parts replacements when needed so that no one is left with a nonworking keyboard.
While I understand that you don't want people to take advantage of you, dealing with an uncooperative customer in this way is a waste of your time and resources. It can also damage your reputation among people who have not yet done business with you.

Why not detail your customer satisfaction guarantee ("I stand by these keyboards") on the top of your online shop? You could include a reasonable return policy that makes sure people do not take advantage of your customer-focused approach. Real customers would understand that very well and scammers could not claim that they didn't know.

Ellipse

07 Apr 2020, 20:51

Yes agreed; I will probably just keep things simple in the future and only consider preapproved (with RMA) exchanges upon receipt of the returned goods in salable condition. Making all these exceptions is too much extra effort. Thanks all for the continued feedback and I am glad to learn these lessons relatively early on in the fulfillment process.

For those of you who are sellers, I'd be interested in hearing how you deal with uncooperative customers and enforce policies - please do share your stories if possible. I remember all the efforts several years ago by some forum members to deal with the bank manager who had the room full of original Kishsaver keyboards but was difficult to deal with (for those who have not heard of this story before, the bank manager had the Kishsavers all put in a metal shredder and completely destroyed) - that story stands out most for me.

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tentator

07 Apr 2020, 20:56

Omg what a horror story!! Kishies and metal shredders?? Brrr...

consensual-penis

08 Apr 2020, 05:30

wobbled wrote:
01 Apr 2020, 09:43
consensual-penis wrote:
31 Mar 2020, 20:21
can I have my keyboard yet?
This man right here deserves to have his keyboard at the front of the pile, purely for his choice in usernames.
I'm glad you agree!

all joking aside, it's nice to see boards actually shipping out.

we know they exist!

dad

08 Apr 2020, 18:45

Ellipse any more updates on dye sub process? The last was about a month ago.

daphnis

14 Apr 2020, 12:54

The horizontal bar above the keys, does or did it have a practical reason for being there?

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tentator

14 Apr 2020, 13:47

daphnis wrote:
14 Apr 2020, 12:54
The horizontal bar above the keys, does or did it have a practical reason for being there?
it's to hold your pens/pencils :)

daphnis

14 Apr 2020, 14:44

tentator wrote:
14 Apr 2020, 13:47
it's to hold your pens/pencils :)
are you sure that was the intention? if so, how? (i find it works pretty
well as a partial bookstand too.)

caiko

14 Apr 2020, 14:55

Twst wrote:
27 Mar 2020, 16:03

Keys are supersmoooth and both the feel and sound is perfect. Even better than my XT and AT.
The F62 in paticular has such great heft and is easily the best keyboard I have owned.
If I can ask - how do you perceive the F62 to be better?

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Twst

14 Apr 2020, 15:50

caiko wrote:
14 Apr 2020, 14:55
Twst wrote:
27 Mar 2020, 16:03

Keys are supersmoooth and both the feel and sound is perfect. Even better than my XT and AT.
The F62 in paticular has such great heft and is easily the best keyboard I have owned.
If I can ask - how do you perceive the F62 to be better?
Well, I like it better. :D
I think it comes down to the size of the board versus the weight it carries. Feels so solid.
The F77 is too giving a very solid feeling, but beeing somewhat bigger it doesn't have the same brick feeling. If I had to choose I would personally take the F62.

The typing sound of the F62 chassis is a little less hollow - so it brings the solid feeling a little further. These are subtle differences and either keyboard is very much perfect.
I currently run the F62 at my office and F77 at home and I very much enjoy using them both.

I have been jugling around with the keycaps, and I must say - Anyone with a buckling spring keyboard should really get the new Ellipse keycaps.
The new keycaps are giving an extra smoothness to these boards, I have tried them both on my AT and on my XT, and they are defently smoother and giving a little lighter touch.
And trying the AT and XT aswell as newer unicomp keycaps on the New Model F boards, this is where the new ones really shine. There is really no contest in smoothness and lightness.
f77easter.PNG
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minnusing

15 Apr 2020, 01:57

Twst wrote:
27 Mar 2020, 19:08
While I wait for the dye subbed caps, the F77 will have to do with what was lying around, mostly caps from an AT ;)
20200327_184456.jpg
Had a smaller Unicomp spacebar from a Unicomp Classic - so I added a extra barrel+flipper and got a extra key. Working without a problem.
Have the threshold settled in on the F77 at 130.
Does Ellipse sell a smaller space bar? I'd love to do this mod!

Ellipse

15 Apr 2020, 03:23

Yes it is a tight fit but I do offer the smaller space bars. They will be in stock in a month or so. I do not offer factory default settings though for the smaller space bars - you'd have to do the installation.

minnusing

15 Apr 2020, 08:21

Good to hear! Would it be small enough to support two additional keys by chance (left and right of the spacebar)? That would be awesome!
Attachments
spacebar.jpg
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daphnis

15 Apr 2020, 16:25

minnusing wrote:
15 Apr 2020, 08:21
Good to hear! Would it be small enough to support two additional keys by chance (left and right of the spacebar)? That would be awesome!
Capital idea.

daphnis

15 Apr 2020, 16:29

Ellipse wrote:
15 Apr 2020, 03:23
Yes it is a tight fit but I do offer the smaller space bars. They will be in stock in a month or so. I do not offer factory default settings though for the smaller space bars - you'd have to do the installation.
You mean you will offer bars that are a perfect fit, in shape as well as in colour, as opposed to those from Unicomp? That would be very nice.

daphnis

16 Apr 2020, 12:48

daphnis wrote:
15 Apr 2020, 16:25
minnusing wrote:
15 Apr 2020, 08:21
Good to hear! Would it be small enough to support two additional keys by chance (left and right of the spacebar)? That would be awesome!
Capital idea.
Though I tend to use that area of the space bar. But I never use the area where the extra modifier on the right could be.

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Twst

16 Apr 2020, 15:28

daphnis wrote:
16 Apr 2020, 12:48
Though I tend to use that area of the space bar. But I never use the area where the extra modifier on the right could be.
I actually removed the extra right side modifier and put in a regular spacebar again.
Could't figure out what would be important enough to use the extra key for, and it kind of messed up my muscle memory for the alt key.
Having three layer keys already was enough 8-)

minnusing

16 Apr 2020, 15:38

Twst wrote:
16 Apr 2020, 15:28

I actually removed the extra right side modifier and put in a regular spacebar again.
Could't figure out what would be important enough to use the extra key for, and it kind of messed up my muscle memory for the alt key.
Having three layer keys already was enough 8-)
I use primarily 60%/HHKB/laptop keyboards, so those extra keys would actually shorten the space bar to a length I'm more accustomed to, lol. The left key was because I like symmetry (and the barrel is already there)!

Does anyone have any comparison notes for Ellipse keycaps vs Unicomp keycaps? I'm interested in HHKB style front-printed keycaps. Unicomp's custom keycap service estimates $60, and over $150 priced out with extra Ellipse keys. I know the sub-dye quality is going to be an improvement, but what about the actual keycaps? Just weighing my options!

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Twst

16 Apr 2020, 15:56

minnusing wrote:
16 Apr 2020, 15:38
Does anyone have any comparison notes for Ellipse keycaps vs Unicomp keycaps? I'm interested in HHKB style front-printed keycaps. Unicomp's custom keycap service estimates $60, and over $150 priced out with extra Ellipse keys. I know the sub-dye quality is going to be an improvement, but what about the actual keycaps? Just weighing my options!
As I noted a few posts back; Get the Ellipse ones. They are miles ahead on smoothness and lightness.

Dye sub legends aside, the Unicomp ones does not do justice to the board - beeing stiffer to touch and does not move as smoothly in the barrel. Top texture is a little different too, the Unicomp ones are a little more slippery.
The Unicomp caps from my findings are from a board with production date late december 2019, so they haven't been used much and are fairly new production.

daphnis

16 Apr 2020, 17:08

Twst wrote:
16 Apr 2020, 15:28
daphnis wrote:
16 Apr 2020, 12:48
Though I tend to use that area of the space bar. But I never use the area where the extra modifier on the right could be.
I actually removed the extra right side modifier and put in a regular spacebar again.
Could't figure out what would be important enough to use the extra key for, and it kind of messed up my muscle memory for the alt key.
Having three layer keys already was enough 8-)
Oh. Aren't you bothered by the asymmetry with respect to the thumbs' home position?
I would move meta to the new key and put something else on the old, either level-3/"altgr" or control.

minnusing

16 Apr 2020, 19:44

Twst wrote:
16 Apr 2020, 15:56


As I noted a few posts back; Get the Ellipse ones. They are miles ahead on smoothness and lightness.

Dye sub legends aside, the Unicomp ones does not do justice to the board - beeing stiffer to touch and does not move as smoothly in the barrel. Top texture is a little different too, the Unicomp ones are a little more slippery.
The Unicomp caps from my findings are from a board with production date late december 2019, so they haven't been used much and are fairly new production.
Good to know - thank you! The texture is probably the most important bit for me. I bought some third party keycaps for my HHKB and they're too smooth. I wonder how HHKB's texture compares to Unicomp's texture...

I'll probably just stick with Ellipse's blanks then :'(

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Twst

16 Apr 2020, 19:54

daphnis wrote:
16 Apr 2020, 17:08
Oh. Aren't you bothered by the asymmetry with respect to the thumbs' home position?
I would move meta to the new key and put something else on the old, either level-3/"altgr" or control.
My thumbs seems to move along the spacebar to get to the closest key anyways.
But it sounds like a solid plan - go for it 8-)

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Twst

16 Apr 2020, 20:05

I have been experimenting a little while I wait for parts to get a solenoid going inside.
Hooked up a little arduino nano to the xwhatsit with a buzzer.
arduinobuzzer.jpg
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Turned out the little buzzer was a little too small when inside the chassis, but the concept works so I might get a bigger one going.
If you know what to listen for, you might hear it :D
Anyone know the frequency for the original 4704 buzzer?
I have it at 2kHz, but this is easy tuneable in arduino code.

User avatar
tentator

16 Apr 2020, 22:43

minnusing wrote:
16 Apr 2020, 19:44
Twst wrote:
16 Apr 2020, 15:56


As I noted a few posts back; Get the Ellipse ones. They are miles ahead on smoothness and lightness.

Dye sub legends aside, the Unicomp ones does not do justice to the board - beeing stiffer to touch and does not move as smoothly in the barrel. Top texture is a little different too, the Unicomp ones are a little more slippery.
The Unicomp caps from my findings are from a board with production date late december 2019, so they haven't been used much and are fairly new production.
Good to know - thank you! The texture is probably the most important bit for me. I bought some third party keycaps for my HHKB and they're too smooth. I wonder how HHKB's texture compares to Unicomp's texture...

I'll probably just stick with Ellipse's blanks then :'(
to me ellipse's caps are eons apart from unicomp, especially the texture: much much better ellipse's I'd dare to say they almost outpeform original XT like caps to me.. the texture on the top, so smooth.. so far I love them even if I have the blank ones!

tent:wq

User avatar
tentator

16 Apr 2020, 22:44

Twst wrote:
16 Apr 2020, 20:05
I have been experimenting a little while I wait for parts to get a solenoid going inside.
Hooked up a little arduino nano to the xwhatsit with a buzzer.
arduinobuzzer.jpg

Turned out the little buzzer was a little too small when inside the chassis, but the concept works so I might get a bigger one going.
If you know what to listen for, you might hear it :D
Anyone know the frequency for the original 4704 buzzer?
I have it at 2kHz, but this is easy tuneable in arduino code.
how is the solenoid supposed to be mounted inside? I remember somebody else here also posted he managed to put a solenoid in the case.. but still wondering how...

User avatar
Twst

16 Apr 2020, 23:28

tentator wrote:
16 Apr 2020, 22:44
how is the solenoid supposed to be mounted inside? I remember somebody else here also posted he managed to put a solenoid in the case.. but still wondering how...
I have some ideas in my mind.
If there is any interest I can do a writeup once I have all the parts and details figured out.
I could include pictures and schematics for everything and how to wire it up. My goal is to use only available parts and easy soldering, with only the provided power of the single usb. ;)

If I figure out a satisfying buzzer, I might try to fit both and have a switchable solenoid and buzzer.
Does anyone happen to know of a suitable buzzer?

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