F104+SSK+122+62+77+50+Ergo orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards

User avatar
wobbled

11 Jul 2021, 02:26

Gurbsordidity wrote:
09 Jul 2021, 08:26
Glad to hear Ellipse is now ignoring the "energy vampires" :D. Any enterprise serving the general public gets plenty of them, and ignoring them actually improves the product by keeping the focus on important things like product development, operations, and support.

I read the warranties and terms of service I agree to, and none of BNMFK's guarantees a specific closing date, only that one will eventually arrive, which belies claims of false advertising. If I were Ellipse I might have reacted by changing the notice a little, to something like, "Due to popular demand, the order closing date has been extended to date x", and then just update x every month or so. That wording resolves the specific complaints I've seen here and yet could still be rolled month to month arbitrarily far into the future.

No one should take criticisms like the one I just saw about "shameless greed" too seriously. In that case, Ellipse set a high asking price on the open market for an item in his personal collection—an act no reasonable person thinks is immoral for a luxury good, and the person screaming shameless greed (over and over and over and over) is indeed a reasonable person. Since the user's real motive is not to decry greed, we have to guess.

My best guess is it's retribution for the time Ellipse shipped them a keyboard internationally and they demanded reimbursement of import duties after the fact, which Ellipse refused.¹ And so began their campaign to embarrass Ellipse, the goal being to pressure Ellipse into reimbursing their import taxes, the result being a cavalcade of shitposts here. I suspect that because the user coveted the $4000 keyboard, they decided to restart their campaign by making an issue of it: I am being a nuisance because remember that one time you refused to pay my import costs?
I'm finding it hard to believe that someone with a mere 15 posts on Deskthority would be able to recall a conversation that happened like a year ago, so forgive me for writing you off as an alt-account.
As it happens I had forgotten about the import fee shafting when raising the issue of his $4000 display of pure greed since it was many pay cheques ago, but If you want to write that off as an immature 'fuck you' to Joe for his greed then go right ahead...
I've bought from the guy multiple times, I believe two of those orders were over $1000 in value, and I'd order from him again because greed aside, he sells some good shit. That doesn't mean I wont call him out on his disgusting practices though. Crawl out of his arse.

chayu

11 Jul 2021, 04:08

I’m in Canada where we’re dinged for taxes (13% in my province) and duties for orders with a value over $20 CAD (now $40 CAD for some cases)….. so we’re always getting dinged. We just get used to it. Import charges are just another part of Canadian living….. at least keyboards aren’t dinged for duties which makes purchasing keyboards effectively as if you were purchasing in Canada, except you probably end up paying $20 USD extra in shipping and brokerage charges.

I’m expecting to be dinged when my F62 comes in too….won’t be pretty but it is what it is.

Gurbsordidity

11 Jul 2021, 05:41

wobbled wrote:
11 Jul 2021, 02:26
forgive me for writing you off as an alt-account.
This response is paranoaic. I take back what I said about being reasonable. I should have realized it before. I'm sorry, and I'll try not to bother you again.

User avatar
Pete

11 Jul 2021, 07:16

chayu wrote:
11 Jul 2021, 04:08
I’m in Canada where we’re dinged for taxes (13% in my province) and duties for orders with a value over $20 CAD (now $40 CAD for some cases)
Everyone seems very familiar with import duties. I'm not feeling as bad about the 10% on Australian imports over AU$1,000 now :D which probably isn't good because now I'm also thinking of ordering some more keyboard stuff.

User avatar
wobbled

11 Jul 2021, 12:19

Gurbsordidity wrote:
11 Jul 2021, 05:41
wobbled wrote:
11 Jul 2021, 02:26
forgive me for writing you off as an alt-account.
This response is paranoaic. I take back what I said about being reasonable. I should have realized it before. I'm sorry, and I'll try not to bother you again.
It's 'Paranoiac' just in case you try and use that word again. :lol:
Any reasonable person would question why something that has sold in the past for hundreds is being listed for $4000 from a guy who has likely already made 10s of thousands from the community he's trying to sell to.
Just to further prove his greed, I was messaged by another community member after posting the initial comment, offering to sell me an identical brand new in box SSK for hundreds.
This community is what it is due to people like elecplus who resells boards to the community for extremely fair prices, sometimes even too cheaply. Not people trying to make quick profits out of the people who made their project a success.

jafd

11 Jul 2021, 14:00

Pete wrote:
11 Jul 2021, 07:16
Everyone seems very familiar with import duties.
I lost my import duty virginity back in 2013 when I had bought a Unicomp keyboard. Shipping cost was the same as the keyboard itself, and the VAT had been calculated for the total.

jafd

11 Jul 2021, 14:04

Got a question to those who got their keyboards in the EU:

1) did the shipping notifications with tracking numbers come from Ellipse himself, postal/courier service, or both?
2) what service handled shipping? Your state post, or DHL/Fedex/UPC/you name it?

User avatar
Wazrach

11 Jul 2021, 14:53

jafd wrote:
11 Jul 2021, 14:04
Got a question to those who got their keyboards in the EU:

1) did the shipping notifications with tracking numbers come from Ellipse himself, postal/courier service, or both?
2) what service handled shipping? Your state post, or DHL/Fedex/UPC/you name it?
Last year when my first order shipped, Ellipse sent me an Order Shipped email with a USPS tracking number. Parcelforce handled it once it reached the UK. This time, my order shipped with a tracking number that linked to Asendia US Tracking. I know it will be handled by Parcelforce again.

Ellipse

11 Jul 2021, 19:51

I added quick order form functionality to the project web site as a test. It lets you order any configuration of any store item from one page, without having to leave the page. https://www.modelfkeyboards.com/quick-order-form/

Below is another photo shared with permission. This one shows the classic style zinc True Red F77 case with pearl/pebble keys as well as Industrial SSK blue keys, and with pebble keys making up part of the home row.
red pebble pearl blue.jpg
red pebble pearl blue.jpg (311.07 KiB) Viewed 5051 times
OxC0FFEE the address is the same one that the order confirmation was sent from - info@ (the project web site)

russypt that is good news; glad it is holding up as a daily driver. How has the sound of the springs and typing changed over the year, if at all? Are things even smoother now or not to a noticeable degree?

Xovaan thanks for sharing your typing comparison video.

Gurbsordidity thanks for your analysis and recommendations. You may be one of the only ones who have read the fine print. There's some fun stuff in the booklet for those who actually read it!

Pete and others thanks for your informative posts on how importing works in Australia and elsewhere with how things are currently. I am not too knowledgeable on the receiving end of packages for those outside the US. From what I have heard people have to go to the post office or customs office in person to pay a duty, and if they do not pick up packages within a certain time frame the packages are returned to the sender.

I am wondering if there is some kind of online option that would notify you of the duty so you can pay it online (if applicable) and have your mail carrier make the delivery to you.

jafd nowadays the international shipments 20 pounds or less are almost all handled by Asendia. Shipments over 20 pounds are handled by USPS. When the shipment arrives in your home country, it is my understanding that it is passed to the local mail delivery service.

User avatar
darkcruix

11 Jul 2021, 20:16

Wazrach wrote:
11 Jul 2021, 14:53
jafd wrote:
11 Jul 2021, 14:04
Got a question to those who got their keyboards in the EU:

1) did the shipping notifications with tracking numbers come from Ellipse himself, postal/courier service, or both?
2) what service handled shipping? Your state post, or DHL/Fedex/UPC/you name it?
Last year when my first order shipped, Ellipse sent me an Order Shipped email with a USPS tracking number. Parcelforce handled it once it reached the UK. This time, my order shipped with a tracking number that linked to Asendia US Tracking. I know it will be handled by Parcelforce again.
In Germany it was taken over by DHL and they informed me, when it went into customs and sent me an online form to pay the import taxes. It was >20% in my case. Once I paid its via PayPal, it was delivered within a few days. A seamless experience for me but the same as when I order anything outside the EU. UK was special for a few weeks after the Brexit, but it is getting better now. I sent several packages to the UK lately and it was simple to prepare them.

User avatar
darkcruix

11 Jul 2021, 20:16

Ellipse wrote:
11 Jul 2021, 19:51
I added quick order form functionality to the project web site as a test. It lets you order any configuration of any store item from one page, without having to leave the page. https://www.modelfkeyboards.com/quick-order-form/

Below is another photo shared with permission. This one shows the classic style zinc True Red F77 case with pearl/pebble keys as well as Industrial SSK blue keys, and with pebble keys making up part of the home row.

red pebble pearl blue.jpg

OxC0FFEE the address is the same one that the order confirmation was sent from - info@ (the project web site)

russypt that is good news; glad it is holding up as a daily driver. How has the sound of the springs and typing changed over the year, if at all? Are things even smoother now or not to a noticeable degree?

Xovaan thanks for sharing your typing comparison video.

Gurbsordidity thanks for your analysis and recommendations. You may be one of the only ones who have read the fine print. There's some fun stuff in the booklet for those who actually read it!

Pete and others thanks for your informative posts on how importing works in Australia and elsewhere with how things are currently. I am not too knowledgeable on the receiving end of packages for those outside the US. From what I have heard people have to go to the post office or customs office in person to pay a duty, and if they do not pick up packages within a certain time frame the packages are returned to the sender.

I am wondering if there is some kind of online option that would notify you of the duty so you can pay it online (if applicable) and have your mail carrier make the delivery to you.

jafd nowadays the international shipments 20 pounds or less are almost all handled by Asendia. Shipments over 20 pounds are handled by USPS. When the shipment arrives in your home country, it is my understanding that it is passed to the local mail delivery service.
I like the quick order form ... nice work and much better to walk through !

User avatar
Bjerrk

11 Jul 2021, 20:41

Ellipse wrote:
11 Jul 2021, 19:51
I added quick order form functionality to the project web site as a test. It lets you order any configuration of any store item from one page, without having to leave the page. https://www.modelfkeyboards.com/quick-order-form/
That's a very nice feature! Seems to work well, but I didn't test it all the way to placing an order, of course. My only "criticism" would be that the right-side "pop-up" (the one which appears when adding products) continued to say "There is nothing in the cart" for several seconds after adding a product.


On an unrelated note: apparently I managed to miss a post which I believe was in part directed at me:
Scarpia wrote:
06 Jul 2021, 17:21
What a shitfest this thread became over the last five pages, holy crap. There’s being in the right and then there’s being in the right and being a loud asshat about it. And an_achronism managed to cross that line repeatedly and at top speed, so he and his parrot are now the latest additions to my ignore list. Holy crap, that endless, bitter ranting won’t be missed.

And for what it’s worth, here’s a life pro tip: if you find yourself in a strained financial situation, maybe don’t spend >$400 on an ultra high end keyboard, no matter what the website says. You come off as - at best - an irresponsible fanatic with an axe to grind, and any business with the luxury to do so would be wise to drop you as a customer to avoid this kind of hassle.

Good riddance.
Please try to stay civilized, Scarpia. And keep your eyes on the ball, not on the player. You're welcome to message me if there is something (constructive) you want to discuss :)

Gurbsordidity

12 Jul 2021, 00:21

wobbled wrote:
11 Jul 2021, 12:19
It's 'Paranoiac' just in case you try and use that word again. :lol:
Yeah, my spellchecker was tired af :lol: Touchė.

russypt

12 Jul 2021, 16:02

Ellipse wrote:
11 Jul 2021, 19:51
russypt that is good news; glad it is holding up as a daily driver. How has the sound of the springs and typing changed over the year, if at all? Are things even smoother now or not to a noticeable degree?
I'd say the sound is identical to day 1. I run it next to my 1986 (I think) restored Model F AT. While at first the feel was a little different (minuscule bit more initial actuation force), after a year of break in the feel is now virtually the same. "Broken in" as they say. The F62 has a lot fewer miles than the F77 due to its different purpose, so it serves as a good control.

I have passed on any floss mods etc, I just use a SSK M when I want a change of pace.

User avatar
Scarpia

12 Jul 2021, 17:11

Bjerrk wrote:
11 Jul 2021, 20:41
On an unrelated note: apparently I managed to miss a post which I believe was in part directed at me:
Scarpia wrote:
06 Jul 2021, 17:21
What a shitfest this thread became over the last five pages, holy crap. There’s being in the right and then there’s being in the right and being a loud asshat about it. And an_achronism managed to cross that line repeatedly and at top speed, so he and his parrot are now the latest additions to my ignore list. Holy crap, that endless, bitter ranting won’t be missed.
(...)
Please try to stay civilized, Scarpia. And keep your eyes on the ball, not on the player. You're welcome to message me if there is something (constructive) you want to discuss :)
Um, I don’t know how you got the impression that I was referring to you. You had some valid points and stayed reasonable in the discussion back when it still had substance. And you aren’t on my ignore list ;-)

As for ‘eyes on the ball’ I agree, but I stand by my post. There are boundaries to keep in a productive discussion and I usually do, but the other parties had abandoned all civility so I wasn’t going to offer them mine. Don’t wear a suit to a shit fight.

Synteks

13 Jul 2021, 07:40

Hello all! First time posting here, just got my F77 today and its working great! I was wondering if anyone would be willing to take a peak at my QMK config before I flash it to just to make sure it'll work.
Thanks!

Kugelkopf

13 Jul 2021, 13:08

False use of limited offers

There is no need to discuss running deadlines in great detail. At least in the EU they are considered unfair and are not allowed. As far as I know, you can't claim a refund, but you can request the correction of the misleading offer, should it still be available. Offenders can be fined, but that fine will end in someone else's pockets. Some years ago I've asked Amazon to correct a website offer that incorrectly stated properties their product definitely didn't have. It took two efforts until they finally did (the second time, when I had announced to forward the case, within hours).

See

https://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/c ... dex_en.htm

"When sellers tell you that a particular offer will only be available for a very limited time, they might be trying to pressure you to buy before taking the time to make an informed choice. It is unfair to claim that an offer is limited in time when that is not in fact the case."

and read the story of Simon and his bicycle. It is left as an exercise to the reader who really can't bear the present state of affairs to find out, how to enforce EU rules with US websites or how US regulations deal with these facts.

Joe isn't Amazon and his product is way different from the mass product Amazon had advertised with false claims. When I entered the project with not a single real product and customer review available, the moving deadline wasn't my biggest concern. And the communication with Joe before spending my money clearly revealed the true nature of his "deadline". For me this case is closed, therefore, and I wish Joe luck with his project without approving his in my eyes even unnecessary deadline game.

Custom fees and taxes (EU)
darkcruix wrote:
11 Jul 2021, 20:16
...In Germany it was taken over by DHL and they informed me, when it went into customs and sent me an online form to pay the import taxes. It was >20% in my case.
...
That's surprising. Keyboards can be imported to the EU without any custom fees

https://www.zoll.de/DE/Privatpersonen/P ... _node.html

(no English version available, apparently. Go to "Computer" -> "Tastatur für EDV")

but are liable to 19% EUSt, as always. Unfortunately, transport charges are taxed at the same rate, but the sum would still remain below 20%. Maybe, additional DHL fees for customs handling, e.g., were included?

User avatar
troglotype

13 Jul 2021, 13:45

Kugelkopf wrote:
13 Jul 2021, 13:08
darkcruix wrote:
11 Jul 2021, 20:16
...In Germany it was taken over by DHL and they informed me, when it went into customs and sent me an online form to pay the import taxes. It was >20% in my case.
...
That's surprising. Keyboards can be imported to the EU without any custom fees

https://www.zoll.de/DE/Privatpersonen/P ... _node.html

(no English version available, apparently. Go to "Computer" -> "Tastatur für EDV")

but are liable to 19% EUSt, as always. Unfortunately, transport charges are taxed at the same rate, but the sum would still remain below 20%. Maybe, additional DHL fees for customs handling, e.g., were included?
I can confirm darkcruix's estimate. The 19% import sales tax (Einfuhrumsatzsteuer) on order and shipping as well as a small DHL handling fee amounted to slightly over 20% of the price of the items ordered.

Joe's "sale amplification by flexible emission of deadlines" has always bothered me. It would run afoul of consumer protection laws here in the EU. I realized that the deadlines were fake before I ordered, so they didn't deceive me. Since then I have just decided to keep Joe's amazing contribution to the community separate from his questionable business practices: Appreciating the former does not mean approval of the latter. I still believe that a more transparent communication would actually help the business side of his project. But it's his project and his decision. For better or worse.

User avatar
an_achronism

13 Jul 2021, 14:23

troglotype wrote:
13 Jul 2021, 13:45
Since then I have just decided to keep Joe's amazing contribution to the community separate from his questionable business practices: Appreciating the former does not mean approval of the latter. I still believe that a more transparent communication would actually help the business side of his project.
Precisely how I feel and have always felt since the very beginning of this experience. It is entirely possible for me to feel that Joe's contribution is valuable whilst also thinking that his conduct stinks worse than the wrong end of a badger; the two things are not mutually exclusive, nor should they be. This seems to have been overlooked, but at this point I'm way beyond expecting or even vaguely hoping to change anybody's mind (beit Joe's or those of the people telling me to shut up and/or piss off and/or grow up). One thing I will say, at least, for the sake of clarity and for no other reason: telling me that I have been unpleasant or repetitive and bitching about it in the thread long after the discussion had already moved on and I'd left it alone is as self-defeating as it is naïve. If you think engaging with somebody like Joe on an exclusively pleasant and polite level is going to work, then either you've never had a conversation with the man or are rather unobservant. Every step of this journey has been an exercise in tedium as he tries (rather feebly, in my opinion) to weave his way around the point to avoid actually answering any questions directly. Even things that seemingly would not serve to "incriminate" him in any meaningful way, he'll still be evasive about. It's exhausting. The only way to get a non-evasive response from somebody like that is to be direct and persistent (that "repetition" you guys are all so mad about). Clearly, it worked: this is the first time I've seen him actually drop the politician act (briefly as it was, since he went straight back to straw man bullshitting immediately afterwards).

The response to my airing of my concerns has frankly just reinforced my increasingly negative opinion of a certain element of the community here. That said, I have at least as many positive messages of support in my inbox (and elsewhere) as there are people shouting at me, whinging about me apparently boring them with "pointless" discussion about an issue that remains stubbornly and pointedly unresolved, and generally being condescending and shitty in this thread. It's been quite the ride. :lol:

jmaynard

13 Jul 2021, 15:42

an_achronism wrote:
13 Jul 2021, 14:23
It's been quite the ride. :lol:
So sayeth the fanatic who must always have the last word. (I'm certain he'll reply to this message just so he can have the last word again. Cue You're So Vain.)

User avatar
Bjerrk

13 Jul 2021, 15:54

jmaynard wrote:
13 Jul 2021, 15:42
So sayeth the fanatic who must always have the last word. (I'm certain he'll reply to this message just so he can have the last word again. Cue You're So Vain.)
Do you enjoy being nasty to people? And if so, why? It's not a very nice way to be.

Your name seems familiar, by the way. The Tron Guy?? Regardless of whether that's you or just a coincidence, it's a great clip :D

User avatar
Bjerrk

13 Jul 2021, 16:03

troglotype wrote:
13 Jul 2021, 13:45
Joe's "sale amplification by flexible emission of deadlines" has always bothered me. It would run afoul of consumer protection laws here in the EU. I realized that the deadlines were fake before I ordered, so they didn't deceive me. Since then I have just decided to keep Joe's amazing contribution to the community separate from his questionable business practices: Appreciating the former does not mean approval of the latter. I still believe that a more transparent communication would actually help the business side of his project. But it's his project and his decision. For better or worse.
Completely agree! I didn't actually realize the nature of the "deadlines" before ordering. But I most likely would have ordered even if I did realize :)

jmaynard

13 Jul 2021, 16:08

Bjerrk wrote:
13 Jul 2021, 15:54
jmaynard wrote:
13 Jul 2021, 15:42
So sayeth the fanatic who must always have the last word. (I'm certain he'll reply to this message just so he can have the last word again. Cue You're So Vain.)
Do you enjoy being nasty to people? And if so, why? It's not a very nice way to be.
No, not particularly. It takes a lot to get me to this point. Beating a dead horse until it's a bloody smear on the sidewalk is one way to do it, and an_achronism's crusade has long passed that.
Your name seems familiar, by the way. The Tron Guy?? Regardless of whether that's you or just a coincidence, it's a great clip :D
Yup, that's me. And thanks!

User avatar
Bjerrk

13 Jul 2021, 16:16

jmaynard wrote:
13 Jul 2021, 16:08
Beating a dead horse until it's a bloody smear on the sidewalk is one way to do it, and an_achronism's crusade has long passed that.
Well, that's one possible viewpoint. Here's another: As you can see, the EU takes such practices serious enough to act upon them. Why you would object to the issue being raised repeatedly -- at least until a reasonable response is given -- is beyond me.
Are you generally a proponent of giving up if someone gives you the runaround? I would assume not :)
Yup, that's me. And thanks!
Nice! :D

jmaynard

13 Jul 2021, 16:19

Bjerrk wrote:
13 Jul 2021, 16:16
Why you would object to the issue being raised repeatedly -- at least until a reasonable response is given -- is beyond me.
Are you generally a proponent of giving up if someone gives you the runaround? I would assume not :)
Because it's clear that Ellipse is not going to change his methods, no matter how much anyone complains. He's not moved an inch on his position, and there's no reason to believe he's ever going to. Further complaining about it is therefore pointless, and an_achronism's claim that he's only making sure people know about it has long, long since been accomplished.

Sometimes, you're not going to win, and fighting on hurts more than it helps. You have to recognize when you've lost.

User avatar
Bjerrk

13 Jul 2021, 16:24

jmaynard wrote:
13 Jul 2021, 16:19
Sometimes, you're not going to win, and fighting on hurts more than it helps. You have to recognize when you've lost.
Sure, but we seem to disagree about when exactly that becomes prudent :) And that is certainly not a sufficient reason to be nasty to anyone. As you said yourself,
It takes a lot to get me to this point.
Live it :)

jmaynard

13 Jul 2021, 16:28

Let me give you an example: I will never again give the Ford Motor Company a dime of my money, even indirectly. They screwed me over pretty badly on the only two new vehicles I ever bought from them by not standing behind them after the sale. (I can tell you a horror story about the manual transmission in a 1992 Explorer that will curl your hair.) But I don't comment on every post about Fords, or even every post about Explorers. If someone asks, I'll tell, and if someone tries to sell me a Ford, I'll explain why my answer is "not only no, but hell no!". Ford won that battle, and I recognize that's $7000 I'll never get back from them. But beating that dead horse is pointless, so I don't do it.

an_achronism has gotten me to this point honestly, and so I am living it honestly. If he wasn't so nasty himself, he wouldn't get it back from me.

mrprofessor

13 Jul 2021, 18:30

> Just my experience, no need to reply and engage.

FWIW, I got into the project thinking that this is that last chance. I would have bought it anyways, but preferably at the time of my choosing.

I was a bit surprised to see that the last date changed to next month-end.

It's Ellipse's own project and I don't know a thing about running a business or marketing or sales, but that didn't feel right. Also he has made it very clear on how he want to run it.

However I believe that there should be a positive pressure and constructive criticism from the community to do the right thing.

Sorry for being vague!

goofy9x

13 Jul 2021, 18:55

To those who have receive the keyboard with HHKB layout: How are the HHKB keys are packed? Do they come in a separate nylon bag inside a carton box, or they're tucked in the same Styrofoam case that contains the keyboard chassis?

nickg

13 Jul 2021, 19:45

Same box as the keyboard. the 'normal' keyswill be in their own external bag

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