F104+SSK+122+62+77+50+Ergo orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards

Arkku

07 Aug 2022, 22:24

Guppy wrote:
07 Aug 2022, 21:53
Okay, this may not be the right thread to ask this question, but how do I set numpad layer on QMK to where using numlock activates the layer?
To create a virtual numlock in the configurator, go to Quantum tab and put your virtual numlock key as `TG` (toggle layer). Give a layer number above all layers that you wish to affect. Then go to that layer, put all non-numpad keys as the downwards triangle (pass through), and the numpad keys as you wish.

This key replaces the real numlock, so it does not follow the actual numlock state. Personally I prefer this, e.g., because numpad 5 can be mapped to the down arrow with the virtual anti-numlock engaged.

Arkku

07 Aug 2022, 22:30

FWIW, I finally managed to get my custom firmware working on the F62 and F77 keyboards. It is a port of pandrew's QMK firmware, but without the QMK keyboard engine, i.e., you lose all the web configurator things and such, but gain perhaps easier hackability. That is, most people are certainly better off with QMK, but if customising your keyboard by writing C code appeals to you, perhaps this might be for you.
Arkku wrote:
25 Oct 2021, 21:56
it is obviously open source under the GPL license, and published on GitHub here: https://github.com/arkku/aakbd
(re. hackability, I'm also planning to make this output PS/2 protocol so I can use one of my F77s with vintage computers. I probably have to put a separate connector for PS/2 rather than using a passive adapter, but that may actually be a good thing since in theory the keyboard could be connected simultaneously to both a modern computer with USB and a vintage computer with PS/2, and toggle between them. Anyway, that's still in the future.)

Ellipse

08 Aug 2022, 01:54

Arkku wrote:
07 Aug 2022, 22:30
FWIW, I finally managed to get my custom firmware working on the F62 and F77 keyboards. It is a port of pandrew's QMK firmware, but without the QMK keyboard engine, i.e., you lose all the web configurator things and such, but gain perhaps easier hackability. That is, most people are certainly better off with QMK, but if customising your keyboard by writing C code appeals to you, perhaps this might be for you.
Arkku wrote:
25 Oct 2021, 21:56
it is obviously open source under the GPL license, and published on GitHub here: https://github.com/arkku/aakbd
(re. hackability, I'm also planning to make this output PS/2 protocol so I can use one of my F77s with vintage computers. I probably have to put a separate connector for PS/2 rather than using a passive adapter, but that may actually be a good thing since in theory the keyboard could be connected simultaneously to both a modern computer with USB and a vintage computer with PS/2, and toggle between them. Anyway, that's still in the future.)
Interesting! Please keep everyone posted on this ps/2 project!

hwood34

08 Aug 2022, 06:38

jandres wrote:
17 Apr 2022, 06:25
Hello,

I am still trying to get my solenoid to work. I have watched the Model F project's video multiple times.

The issue I am have, when I try to use Atmel Flip, after I select ATMega32U2 chip, and then select USB, I immediately get these two (2) errors:

"AtLibUsbDfu.dll not found"

and

"Could not load dynamic library."

I have watched the video repeatedly, following every step to a T, including the pandrew utility (erasing eprom and entering bootloader). Please, any help would be greatly appreciated. I just want my solenoid to work, as it should have out of the box.

Thanks!
Having this issue myself and couldn't find the solution scanning this thread. Does anyone have a solution?

I'm just trying to get the solenoid to work. I can hear it click when I plug in the board and again when I enable/disable, but nothing while typing.

Arkku

08 Aug 2022, 18:21

So, I've been experimenting with different layouts. How is everyone setting up their numpad area; just one of the "official" choices, or custom? I feel like arrows, page up/down, home/end and delete (if backspace isn't split) are the most useful keys to have, and I don't really like toggling "num lock" since I don't have any routine for using the numpad to type numbers. What to put in the leftover positions? Below is my most recent iteration - the choice of F10-F12 is because a) they are the hardest to reach with Fn + number when Fn is pressed with the right hand, and b) on Mac they correspond to the mute and volume down/up keys. The Pause and Print Screen feel quite unnecessary, even though they are currently set up to be the media play/pause (F8) and Cmd-Shift-3 (screenshot) on Mac.
33F23DBC-111C-45A0-82D4-E0DB8B00CB35.jpeg
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doureios

08 Aug 2022, 23:23

Guppy wrote:
07 Aug 2022, 21:53
Okay, this may not be the right thread to ask this question, but how do I set numpad layer on QMK to where using numlock activates the layer? It seems like such a simple thing, to the point where the QMK manual doesn't even mention how to do it, just that it can be done using layers.
Arkku already gave the resolution, but I'd like to take a stab at explaining why. Please correct me if I get this wrong.

It seems simple because it is — maybe a little too simple. Num Lock is a simple shift key. The Num Lock keycode produced by KC_NLCK itself cannot activate QMK layers because the QMK layers live at a much lower level. Keys like Shift ask the operating system to interpret the same keycodes differently. For example, the shifted Numpad 7 is Home, and the shifted Numpad Home is 7. Num Lock is just another locking shift key like Caps Lock, except that it only affects number pad keys while Caps Lock only affects Alphabet keys.

The "gotcha" for using TG() under your Num Lock keycap is that the Number Pad keys will not actually shift, so that behavior has to be recreated manually with similar behaving keycodes. If you do use Number Pad keycodes, you may encounter strange behavior if Num Lock is accidentally toggled in your operating system by something else.
Last edited by doureios on 08 Aug 2022, 23:43, edited 2 times in total.

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doureios

08 Aug 2022, 23:42

Arkku wrote:
05 Aug 2022, 19:41
The keys in the numpad section of the F77 do all have flippers, though. Or, at least mine did, even though the keyboard was ordered with the arrow key layout that has two blank keys. (edit: Actually, they must have flippers on all keyboards, so that they can have springs, because without springs the keycaps would not sit at the correct level.)
Agreed. Mine came with flippers there, too. Hopefully pandrew will recant his decision to set those to KC_NO in VIA and turn them on by default. I bet almost everyone wants to use those keys. I mean, why waste them, right? :mrgreen:

Ellipse

09 Aug 2022, 19:06

APL key set: is anyone up for drawing and aligning the APL key set's unique legends in Inkscape? I don't want to bug Zed since Zed has already done so many key sets and there is little to no relative interest in the APL sets. I'd like to make them in the classic IBM Orange as well as the more modern blue color.

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Muirium
µ

09 Aug 2022, 22:36

How much are you paying?

You’re right that APL has to be red/orange. Blue? Never!

Arkku

09 Aug 2022, 23:39

I updated my firmware slightly: I made the matrix scanning about twice as fast (compared to QMK with calibration) in cases when calibration doesn't end up populating all bins. In my case all keys go into one calibration bin, which means scanning the matrix takes about 0.8 ms on the F77 (less on F62), i.e., 1000 Hz refresh should be reasonable. Two bins is about 1 ms.

(edit: To clarify, my firmware does calibration and binning, using the same code as pandrew's QMK firmware, but I just have noticed in practice that all my keyboards end up calibrating to all keys in one bin. The threshold of that bin may change slightly.)

I also added the capability to save the calibration to EEPROM. This way if the keyboard starts with keys pressed, the calibration can be skipped and the keypresses will register immediately. The changes would be easy to port from my firmware (AAKBD) back to QMK.
Last edited by Arkku on 11 Aug 2022, 00:51, edited 1 time in total.

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Muirium
µ

10 Aug 2022, 14:51

Got a link to your firmware? Sounds promising.

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darkcruix

10 Aug 2022, 20:53

Arkku wrote:
09 Aug 2022, 23:39
I updated my firmware slightly: I made the matrix scanning about twice as fast (compared to QMK with calibration) in cases when calibration doesn't end up populating all bins. In my case all keys go into one calibration bin, which means scanning the matrix takes about 0.8 ms on the F77 (less on F62), i.e., 1000 Hz refresh should be reasonable. Two bins is about 1 ms.

I also added the capability to save the calibration to EEPROM. This way if the keyboard starts with keys pressed, the calibration can be skipped and the keypresses will register immediately. The changes would be easy to port from my firmware (AAKBD) back to QMK.
I remember that xwhatsit original firmware had issues with its manual calibration - especially, when the environment was changing. Even today, I can see that it strongly depends on environmental factors (moisture in the air?). I never had issues with QMK due to its scanning and "binning". I would love to test your variant as well.

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darkcruix

10 Aug 2022, 20:54

Brand New Model F family ...
Attachments
BNMF-family.jpg
BNMF-family.jpg (2.93 MiB) Viewed 22390 times

Arkku

10 Aug 2022, 21:47

Muirium wrote:
10 Aug 2022, 14:51
Got a link to your firmware? Sounds promising.
https://github.com/arkku/aakbd/releases/tag/0.9.4 <- Here you go!

I included two zip files with autogenerated builds for various "basic" F62 and F77 combinations. The main benefits will come with compiling your own, but I understand that may put the firmware out of reach of most users (for whom QMK is much better, except that I went and improved some aspects of it).

To undo the firmware, all of the builds there should support Fn + Space + R to reset the keyboard to bootloader. They also support DFU reset, so a command like `dfu-util -e` can reset the keyboard programmatically.
darkcruix wrote:
10 Aug 2022, 20:53
I remember that xwhatsit original firmware had issues with its manual calibration - especially, when the environment was changing. Even today, I can see that it strongly depends on environmental factors (moisture in the air?). I never had issues with QMK due to its scanning and "binning". I would love to test your variant as well.
My variant does the exact same scanning and binning as QMK does; in fact I ported pandrew's QMK code directly… However, I improved certain aspects of it:

When there are empty bins, the DAC will not be set to that threshold at all, since we know there are no keys to scan in those bins. This alone accounts for 99% of the speed increase (the 1% is some other micro-optimisations that I did): for me, in the current weather and phase of the moon, all three of my keyboards calibrate such that all keys are in one bin. (I implemented a macro that makes the keyboard type its calibration and scanning stats, i.e., go to a text editor and press Fn + Space + 2 and it will show how the bins are distributed, etc.)

Calibration itself will be done on startup normally, except that the matrix is first scanned once with the previously-saved calibration, and if that indicates that keys are down, the calibration is then skipped (it would be wrong anyway if keys are held down on start, since those keys won't work after calibration). But if the saved calibration is not so wrong that it would indicate held keys on start, the startup calibration will still be done just as with QMK.

Admittedly there is a risk here that if the old calibration is wrong enough, the keyboard might theoretically register keys as being pressed when they aren't and then you would be unable to re-calibrate. Personally, I don't see this as an issue, because a) if the old calibration works enough that I can access the Fn + Space + U key combo, I can unsave the calibration, and b) I can always flash a firmware that erases the saved calibration. My firmware supports software reset via DFU, so even if the keys are not working, I can still reset it with `dfu-util`.

The calibration is saved on the first calibration of the keyboard, but only if scanning with the hardcoded threshold doesn't show any keys as being held down, and only if the calibration didn't result in some bin having only 1-4 keys (which might indicate that those keys were held down or the layout is misconfigured to include the always-pressed pads). The calibration can still be saved manually with a macro (the ability to write custom macros in simple C code is one of the main reasons my firmware exists in the first place, but the included template has this mapped to Fn + Space + C).
Last edited by Arkku on 20 Aug 2022, 14:50, edited 8 times in total.

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Muirium
µ

10 Aug 2022, 21:54

Cool! :D

I’m running original IBM hardware (with Xwhatsit controllers) which I gather is a little differently laid out, matrix wise, to Ellipse’s repros. I troubleshooted the OG Kishsaver with Pandrew here. My other capsense QMK boards are a beamspring and an AT.

Arkku

10 Aug 2022, 22:09

Muirium wrote:
10 Aug 2022, 21:54
I’m running original IBM hardware (with Xwhatsit controllers) which I gather is a little differently laid out, matrix wise, to Ellipse’s repros.
If they work with pandrew's firmware, porting them to my firmware would be trivial (most of the code that interacts with the keyboard hardware is the same, it's just a different keyboard engine and USB implementation). But if my modifications to the matrix scanning and calibration are seen as worth having, it would probably be better to backport them to QMK.

(I also recently bought a Model F XT, which I plan to convert to PS/2 with a DIY converter, but that's off topic for this thread… I don't have other capsense keyboards than the 2× F77 and 1× F62, but as mentioned earlier, I also plan to add PS/2 output to one of the F77s.)

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Muirium
µ

10 Aug 2022, 22:13

Yeah, definitely beyond my lame technical abilities. I can flash a hex easily enough (and your support for host-side DFU initiation sounds an excellent upgrade) but diddling with code I didn’t write is a recipe for breakage.

Ellipse

10 Aug 2022, 23:41

There was discussion about obtaining a unique USB PID code for the controller. I have now obtained the code 4704
https://pid.codes/1209/4704/

This code is for all open source xwhatsit controller projects and derivatives; permission is not needed from me to use the code for any such purpose.

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Muirium
µ

10 Aug 2022, 23:48

:D Classy move! Love that number. Thanks Ellipse! :D

Arkku

11 Aug 2022, 00:45

Ellipse wrote:
10 Aug 2022, 23:41
There was discussion about obtaining a unique USB PID code for the controller. I have now obtained the code 4704
https://pid.codes/1209/4704/
Nice! I rebuilt all 192 configuration variants of my firmware with this new VID/PID combo :ugeek:

https://github.com/arkku/aakbd/releases/tag/0.9.3
Last edited by Arkku on 11 Aug 2022, 20:46, edited 1 time in total.

Arkku

11 Aug 2022, 00:52

darkcruix wrote:
10 Aug 2022, 20:54
Brand New Model F family ...
Where did you get the short space that leaves room for an extra key on the left, I didn't notice it being available? What position is that in the keymap?

P. S. Nice keyboards! =)

Ellipse

14 Aug 2022, 03:53

Arkku it looks like that's the scumnc / scumyc layout - the only custom PCB layout available for the new Model F project.

If they do not know already, I wanted to let folks know of a great Model F history resource in addition to the Deskthority wiki - lots of great photos and information: https://sharktastica.co.uk/wiki?id=modelf

I am wondering which person has photos of among the last production line Model F keyboards made from all new parts, if they have labels of all the various dated components in the board (the WWYY of the controller or capacitive PCB, labels on cables, the case bottom label, etc.). Some F107s formerly in my collection I believe had everything dated 1990; personally I have not seen any all 1991 Model F keyboards. Shark has noted a 1992 Unsaver photographed here, as well as 1994-made (or refurbed?) 5291s: http://kishy.ca/?p=1606 As shark notes on the wiki site, Lexmark did refurbish keyboards well into the 1990s, as late as 1996. I can confirm several of my F107s had controllers and capacitive PCBs with production dates of 1996 while the rest of the keyboards clearly had components dated in the prior decade, including the F107's metal cases.

I wonder what is the latest all new production of each model F122, XT, AT, etc.
F107 1996 PCB refurb (2) - Copy.jpg
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Arkku

14 Aug 2022, 18:17

Ellipse wrote:
14 Aug 2022, 03:53
Arkku it looks like that's the scumnc / scumyc layout - the only custom PCB layout available for the new Model F project.
Ah, of course, the arrow keys on the right are smaller.

Arkku

14 Aug 2022, 18:20

So, I modified my F77 and F62 to have a detachable USB-C cable. Even though it looks clearly DIY, I actually prefer this panel-mounted connector over the ultra-compact version's PCB-mounted connector accessed through a hole. And if the connector wears out or breaks, it's like €10 to replace the extension cord inside the keyboard.
06C0C537-5067-4C78-B408-2D764A33A4C3.jpeg
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(I also modified both of the keyboards to work with USB-C to USB-C cables, which is what I'm mostly using these days. Thanks again to pandrew for the instructions!)

BuGless

14 Aug 2022, 23:29

Arkku wrote:
14 Aug 2022, 18:20
So, I modified my F77 and F62 to have a detachable USB-C cable.
Can you be more specific about the components used? From the picture it's not quite clear what you did.

Arkku

14 Aug 2022, 23:53

BuGless wrote:
14 Aug 2022, 23:29
Arkku wrote:
14 Aug 2022, 18:20
So, I modified my F77 and F62 to have a detachable USB-C cable.
Can you be more specific about the components used? From the picture it's not quite clear what you did.
Sure, there's just a 90º angled USB-C extender directly plugged in to the controller inside the keyboard, and then a 15–20 cm long USB-C extension cable where the female side has screw holes for mounting to a panel. The case of the keyboard is thinned around the connector (the plug doesn't reach the socket otherwise).

(I've linked to the specific ones I bought. For the resistor modification to make USB-C to USB-C cables work, see my earlier post.)

Content warning: crudely modified keyboard case:
Spoiler:
D5764CCE-B557-4C2B-8DEA-B69A6930AC56.jpeg
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I considered airbrushing the exposed metal with black paint, but in the end I decided I kind of like it as is, and it is behind the keyboard anyway.

Ellipse

16 Aug 2022, 04:10

The first 3d printed sample keys for the PC AT style enter, code key, and non-stepped ISO Enter key are being evaluated by the factory, and I expect to receive the mold quotation soon. If the cost to add the PC AT and code key is minimal then I hope they can be added.

I expect to go with the wheelwriter style code key and wheelwriter-style PC AT enter key; this key should be backwards compatible if you use the new horizontal insert (I am not making the old rectangle style insert/post as this key is not an exact reproduction of the PC AT's enter key which appears to have been designed before the latest stabilizer insert design was finalized. This PC AT enter key has no wire stabilizer, a standard horizontal key style post on the bottom left barrel, and no post on the top, same as on the wheelwriter. The code key closely reproduces the wheelwriter version as well.
3d printed sample keys.jpg
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Here's another great keyboard photo - this time of the new dark blue ultra compact F77 keyboard with the new production unprinted dark gray keys. Posting with permission.
ZeroGravitas_Ally.jpg
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thefarside

16 Aug 2022, 16:06

Looks very promising!

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doureios

17 Aug 2022, 19:30

Ellipse wrote:
10 Aug 2022, 23:41
There was discussion about obtaining a unique USB PID code for the controller. I have now obtained the code 4704
https://pid.codes/1209/4704/
That's awesome! Thank you for not only listening, but also finding a solution, Ellipse!

You picked 4704! Bonus! That number should be pretty recognizable around here... ;)

Ellipse

17 Aug 2022, 20:32

Here's an interesting F77 setup reported at Cult Of Mac: https://www.cultofmac.com/787679/the-pe ... st-setups/

Project update:

Meetup: My presentation has been scheduled tentatively for 9/29, so if anyone can offer to host a meetup open to the public in the early afternoon on that date, please contact me (the talk is limited to company employees).

Under 400 keyboards left in the backlog! These 2021 and 2022 orders should be going out over the coming weeks. Then we can move on to the beam project! I hope to receive the new beam sample in 1-2 weeks.

Over 3,500 Brand New Model F keyboards have shipped so far.

We are moving into the final round. The final round is leaving the factory this month; the container shipment is expected to arrive by the end of October - this one has the other ~150 beam keyboards too, as part of the 300 keyboards of the first beam spring keyboard production round. For the final round I ordered all variations of the keyboards and accessories in advance, based on the proportion of each variation ordered over the past couple years, so that everyone will likely be waiting only weeks for their keyboards as opposed to longer. However costs are far higher across the board (!) so please expect pricing to be higher for these keyboards if you are not planning on ordering in the near future.

I ordered lots of extras (first aid kits, inner foam, solenoid drivers and solenoids, key sets, custom keys, etc.) so feel free to pick up some of these items while they are still available.

The final round changes are around the packaging only. F77 classic case box sizes are reduced by about 40% and the styrofoam original-style packaging has been replaced with the newer foam style of the ultra compact cases. The factory has too much F62 styrofoam still in inventory (the styrofoam mold makes both f62 and f77 at the same time and there were more 77's ordered than 62's) so you'll still get that for the classic style F62 keyboards. The boxes still have the same artwork and double-walled construction quality.

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