F104+SSK+122+62+77+50+Ergo orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards

Kugelkopf

22 Apr 2021, 13:47

sedevidi wrote:
22 Apr 2021, 10:06
Kugelkopf wrote:
21 Apr 2021, 22:54
...
Upon contemplating the photo, I'm wondering, if it might be the "Feststelltaste", that had to be pressed in the first place and the silver button, to unlock the thing. My relevant typing experience is a few decades away...
AFAIK, "Umschalttaste" moves the typing levers up, "Feststelltaste" just pushes "Umschalttaste" AND activates a lock with a spring, leaving "Umschalttaste" in a down position. You had to push a bit "Umschalttaste" to release the lock and let the typing levers go back down.
The metal key is probably a "tab-stop" lever : push it down to set a tab-stop, pull it up to unset the tab-stop at the current position. Those tab stops are little metal tabs at each character position along the roller that stop the roller when you push it to the left. The "go-to-next-tab" key may be the red one on the right. That's the case on my 1967 typewriter.
There were different models around: "basket shifters" vs. "carriage shifters" (I've meanwhile polished my English typewriter terminology by visiting some relevant web resources). The model I was referring to was an "Adler" that came with the currency symbol "ℳ" for "Mark" (no "Reichsmark" or "DM") and was in use in our family until I got an electric typewriter around 1980. I wasn't able to find our "Adler" on the web thus far but it was very similiar to the "Erika" I've posted. It was a "carriage shifter", meaning the carriage was mechanically raised by the "Umschalttaste" while the levers stayed in place. I was quite surprised, how well I'm remembering the tactile feeling, when the "Feststelltaste" was snapping in after all those years and though I didn't give typing with this machine a thought during the past decades. I'm pretty sure, the blocking did only occur by mechanical deformation of the metal levers the "Umschalt" and the silvery button were attached to, but I vaguely remember to have seen the spring lock mechanism you mentioned, too, with other models.

I hardly remember any tab stop settings. At the time of writing with this device, I wasn't aware of such subtle writing techniques. I think there were some sliders at the carriage, that could be used for this purpose, but I would be very wrong, if the silvery button was usable for anything else than to unlock (lock?) the "Feststelltaste". Your model is apparently a much younger "basket shifter", so probably a few improvements did apply.

Ooh, and the red "Rücktransport" button (named "Rücktaste" with our "Adler") is just the backspace key. But it had to be pressed waaaaay farther down than temporary computer backspace keys, to achieve any effect.

OxC0FFEE

23 Apr 2021, 04:14

darkcruix wrote:
18 Apr 2021, 22:51
Caps Lock was initially described by IBM as Feststelltaste or Groß
I mean, caps lock is pretty gross…

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daedalus
Buckler Of Springs

23 Apr 2021, 13:00

Zed wrote:
21 Apr 2021, 22:30
Ellipse has mentioned that he wants to do this but I don't think it's been announced anywhere so I hope it's OK to post this.

F Beam.png

I have no idea if this is practical and I haven't even brought this up with Ellipse so don't get too excited for this one. Still very much a WIP as well.

F Beam APL.png
These are lovely sets, and I would definitely be interested in them. A few suggestions on some of the legends:

1) The 3278 keyboards used a diagonal arrow inside in a box icon for Home, see the legend on the front face of the back-tab key:

Image

A matching end key could also be made. Of course, the existing diagonal arrow legends in the existing key sets would probably suffice here as well.

2) The 5250 keyboards used "Roll" with arrows for Pg Up/Pg Dn

Image

(Roll ^ meant go to the next page, and Roll v meant go to the previous page)

3) Also on the 5250 keyboards, "CMD" was used as the Fn key (i.e. CMD + 1 gave you the equivalent of F1, which was called CMD1)

4) Field -/+ were used on the numpads of 5250.

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Zed

23 Apr 2021, 14:13

daedalus wrote:
23 Apr 2021, 13:00
Zed wrote:
21 Apr 2021, 22:30
Ellipse has mentioned that he wants to do this but I don't think it's been announced anywhere so I hope it's OK to post this.

F Beam.png

I have no idea if this is practical and I haven't even brought this up with Ellipse so don't get too excited for this one. Still very much a WIP as well.

F Beam APL.png
These are lovely sets, and I would definitely be interested in them. A few suggestions on some of the legends:

1) The 3278 keyboards used a diagonal arrow inside in a box icon for Home, see the legend on the front face of the back-tab key:

Image

A matching end key could also be made. Of course, the existing diagonal arrow legends in the existing key sets would probably suffice here as well.

2) The 5250 keyboards used "Roll" with arrows for Pg Up/Pg Dn

Image

(Roll ^ meant go to the next page, and Roll v meant go to the previous page)

3) Also on the 5250 keyboards, "CMD" was used as the Fn key (i.e. CMD + 1 gave you the equivalent of F1, which was called CMD1)

4) Field -/+ were used on the numpads of 5250.
Thanks for the feedback. I got a little cute? creative? crazy? with some of the mod legends in these renders fully expecting to change them for the final product. I'll definitely change the 'Page Up/Down' to 'Roll' now that I know that is the closest equivalent Beamspring legend. Going with 'PF' for the Function Row OK with folks or too much creative license?

Xcore

23 Apr 2021, 14:38

I got my F77 out of custom clearance. The package was beaten up and had dented edges, but except for the left shift key, everything was working out of the box.

The typing feel is so otherworldly. It's crisp and clear and wonderfully light. It is definitely much lighter that the Model F/XT, but in the best way possible.

Congratulations, a job more than well done!

gliucf

23 Apr 2021, 14:50

Ellipse wrote:
22 Apr 2021, 00:21
Yes confirmed, I hope to offer the beam spring type, beam spring apl type layouts for the new Model F keys as well as regular APL (both light orange and red variations) and JIS.

Zed has also just added the 1U Mac keys requested and color options for the keys (see the extra keys page on the project web site for the new graphics) - green Alt keys, gray SSK front print keys, and green SysRq front print. No other colors or other options are currently available until I see how the green sublimation turns out.

If interested in any of these sets or color keys please message me or email me so I can let you know when they are ready to order (let me know which you are interested in). First I'm going to make sure one of each comes out nice from the factory.
May I also request a 1.75u Mac Command key (for use in the caps lock position)? Of course I totally understand if it's not possible!

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daedalus
Buckler Of Springs

23 Apr 2021, 15:00

Zed wrote:
23 Apr 2021, 14:13
Thanks for the feedback. I got a little cute? creative? crazy? with some of the mod legends in these renders fully expecting to change them for the final product.
No need to apologize, since a lot of the keys of modern keyboards did not exist for old keyboards, some interpretation is needed :)
Going with 'PF' for the Function Row OK with folks or too much creative license?
PF was correct for the 3270 terminals, see for example:

Image

Some of the later Model F/Model M 5250 keyboards used CMD1-CMD, but if you are aiming for a recreation of a beam spring 3278, PF is more correct.

The suggestion regarding CMD was regarding the FN/Func keys, and not the PF keys.

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Zed

23 Apr 2021, 19:51

gliucf wrote:
23 Apr 2021, 14:50
Ellipse wrote:
22 Apr 2021, 00:21
Yes confirmed, I hope to offer the beam spring type, beam spring apl type layouts for the new Model F keys as well as regular APL (both light orange and red variations) and JIS.

Zed has also just added the 1U Mac keys requested and color options for the keys (see the extra keys page on the project web site for the new graphics) - green Alt keys, gray SSK front print keys, and green SysRq front print. No other colors or other options are currently available until I see how the green sublimation turns out.

If interested in any of these sets or color keys please message me or email me so I can let you know when they are ready to order (let me know which you are interested in). First I'm going to make sure one of each comes out nice from the factory.
May I also request a 1.75u Mac Command key (for use in the caps lock position)? Of course I totally understand if it's not possible!
Should be OK I think. I just sent Ellipse the artwork with 1.75U 'Command' added to the brilliantly named 'Extras' set but we still have to get his final approval.

Edit: Good to go gliucf!

gliucf

24 Apr 2021, 17:57

Zed wrote:
23 Apr 2021, 19:51
gliucf wrote:
23 Apr 2021, 14:50
Ellipse wrote:
22 Apr 2021, 00:21
Yes confirmed, I hope to offer the beam spring type, beam spring apl type layouts for the new Model F keys as well as regular APL (both light orange and red variations) and JIS.

Zed has also just added the 1U Mac keys requested and color options for the keys (see the extra keys page on the project web site for the new graphics) - green Alt keys, gray SSK front print keys, and green SysRq front print. No other colors or other options are currently available until I see how the green sublimation turns out.

If interested in any of these sets or color keys please message me or email me so I can let you know when they are ready to order (let me know which you are interested in). First I'm going to make sure one of each comes out nice from the factory.
May I also request a 1.75u Mac Command key (for use in the caps lock position)? Of course I totally understand if it's not possible!
Should be OK I think. I just sent Ellipse the artwork with 1.75U 'Command' added to the brilliantly named 'Extras' set but we still have to get his final approval.

Edit: Good to go gliucf!
Wonderful! Thank you so much!

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ironicmoustache

25 Apr 2021, 13:41

Finally pulled the trigger on an F77 today after thinking about it for months. Looking forward to getting it in the mail!

Ellipse

26 Apr 2021, 17:53

Regarding the beam spring legend Model F keys, I recommend the Icon-only modifiers where appropriate, like in the 3278 photo posted earlier, as opposed to the Field Exit, PF, etc. of some keyboards.

Great ironicmoustache - glad you've joined the project!

And glad everything arrived safely Xcore despite the box likely getting bounced around during shipping.

Dye sublimation update - a whole bunch of keys are expected to arrive by air at some point next week, including blue printed US, dark gray printed US, pearl/pebble UK, and regular pearl/pebble US (and associated HHKB 6 key sets for each option). Once this batch arrives I will have enough keys to start mailing out the key sets for the folks who chose the separate shipping option, alongside my mailings of the full keyboards and key sets for those who have been waiting for everything to ship all at once.

Only the "all in stock" shipping and all in stock separate shipping will go out - the factory is doing all the front printing stuff and extra keys last, expected towards the end of May (so those who have ordered F1-F12, Industrial SSK, and extra keys will get everything starting after I receive those keys - there is no "separate separate" shipping option to get your main key set a little earlier and the standard separate shipping option is no longer available).

deskilu

27 Apr 2021, 22:58

When you say you have enough keys to mail out, do you mean enough for all currently outstanding orders at the time of your post?
Also, I read that something needs to be done to enable full n-key rollover? Could someone explain? Thanks again, for bringing this amazing thing into existence!

Gurbsordidity

28 Apr 2021, 00:25

OxC0FFEE wrote:
23 Apr 2021, 04:14
darkcruix wrote:
18 Apr 2021, 22:51
Caps Lock was initially described by IBM as Feststelltaste or Groß
I mean, caps lock is pretty gross…
Hiss! Caps lock is our ally in a world of initialisms and environment variables.

This page alone: AFAIK AND CMD SSK APL JIS F/XT. Imagine typing those without caps lock. My wrists cramp up just thinking about it.

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kbdfr
The Tiproman

28 Apr 2021, 08:42

Gurbsordidity wrote:
28 Apr 2021, 00:25
[…] Hiss! Caps lock is our ally in a world of initialisms and environment variables.
And CapsLock is for people who really type and do not resort to holding down one Shift key while roaming all over their keyboard with the other hand in search of all the letters contained in e.g. NATO or UNESCO.

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Scarpia

28 Apr 2021, 09:25

Wow, lots of activity on the keycaps/buttons now! I would like to +1 the 1.75u Command key for the CapsLock position.

But if that keycap can have a different legend then I would propose a more generic one, like ‘F62’, ‘F77’, ‘Model F’, or the BS logo. This way, it would work equally well as a Ctrl key on Windows, a Command key on Mac, an Esc key for the vim users, and even (shudder) as a cooler CapsLock key for the crazies who would really rather have a typewriter.


[rant]CapsLock is grossly squatting on 1.75u of _prime_ keyboard real estate which deserves better. If two-key chords are good enough for copy, paste, and save, despite those being used 1000 times a day, it’s good enough for the maybe-twice-a-day CapsLock functionality. Fn+Shift is all it gets from me.[/rant]

cods

28 Apr 2021, 10:43

darkcruix wrote:
16 Apr 2021, 17:41
I was doing some work on getting proper buckling spring keycap storage systems and display trays created.
Those look great!

Ellipse

30 Apr 2021, 01:38

As a note I have just published the April update on the project web site blog - a good gathering of all the activity since the last blog post.

https://www.modelfkeyboards.com/blog/

In the update, I have added a note on how to mount the solenoid L bracket with one of the screw-on bumpers:

The L bracket case hole is 6-32 thread so you can actually use the L bracket as the nut for any bumpers with 6-32 threads or with a 6-32 screw that you can order elsewhere. For example the 1 inch tall bumpers on the project web site include a 6-32 thread screw. No need to drill another hole in the case if you want both a screw on bumper as well as a solenoid! Unfortunately the 1/2 inch bumpers known as “medium with the threaded stud” are 8-32 thread I believe so you’d have to buy a stick on bumper or drill another hole, or mount the solenoid internally with something like 3M VHB tape. Might be better to purchase a set of 1/2 inch bumpers with a hole in the middle, instead of with an included screw, so that you can use a 6-32 screw of your own.

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kremor

30 Apr 2021, 03:31

How much will the price increase in the final round and will the other items also be available (springs, controllers, keys, etc.)?

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Reshala

30 Apr 2021, 03:49

Would be great if there are some colored space bars!

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Ludovician

01 May 2021, 07:01

Hey, would it add delays if I were to add a solenoid to my order? I'm assuming this depends on whether extra stock was produced.

Also, is it safe to assume that would require both the solenoid and the solenoid driver on the store page?

Ellipse

01 May 2021, 16:37

Reshala - the available space bar colors are pearl, dark gray, Industrial SSK blue, and black. Unicomp's space bars should also work - they have two versions and I don't remember which of the two would work. https://www.pckeyboard.com/mm5/graphics ... -25-13.pdf

kremor I don't know.

Ludovician there would be no delay. I still have some solenoids and drivers in stock. Yes you would need both to run a solenoid.

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Bjerrk

02 May 2021, 11:32

cods wrote:
21 Mar 2021, 10:16
It’s difficult to tell if you’re actually feeling aggrieved, or you’re just concern trolling. If it’s the latter, which I suspect, then I’m guilty of feeding the trolls. Damn.
If it is the former, here’s an idea: stop searching the world for thing to get upset about.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Buy one. Don’t buy one.
I think you completely missed the mark, right there.

Those of us who are asking about the constantly changing deadline are generally happy owners of Ellipse's Model F reproduction.
I have one, and I find it absolutely excellent. Perhaps the nicest keyboard I own.

However, exactly for that reason, I think Ellipse should address it. He has an excellent product. Less-than-transparent marketing shouldn't be necessary, and may in fact be detrimental.

I have a good friend (he's a member here, but doesn't really post) who was very interested in getting a New Model F, but was quite put off when he saw the deadline change every month, after he had initially thought it was a matter of urgency.

So, please separate matters:

Nobody is whining about the product. It's great. We know because we use it.

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:Dön:

02 May 2021, 13:17

Zed wrote:
21 Apr 2021, 01:29
Jesse9766 wrote:
20 Apr 2021, 23:43
Zed wrote:
20 Apr 2021, 20:42


That would be a yes if you are interested in ordering one. :lol:
High quality Thai sublegends are kinda rare in mechanical keyboards, so I'd certainly purchase a set if one was made!

A bit of information if production is indeed considered. Thai keyboards are in ANSI layout. I have never seen one in ISO layout. I ordered my Model F in the split backspace HHKB layout, so the | \ ฅ ฃ key should come in 1u and 1.5u size. Special modifiers do not need to be made because they typically are in English.

The original specifications for the Thai layout has a slightly different number row.
Image

The most common layout as used today.
Image

As seen on an Apple keyboard. Note the 1u | \ ฅ ฅ key which is a by-product of the right side being chopped off slightly. Also the Caps Lock is label is replaced with ก/A , which performs the same function as Caps Lock, toggling lower and upper legends.
Image

Many of the top right characters on the IBM Model F are in the wrong places. The number row is also much different from modern layouts. Typography is similar to Thai typewriter fonts, such as "DB Bradley Curved X". https://thaifaces.com/thaitype/bradley/#0

There are some slight differences between IBM's font and this one, such as ง having a downward curve and the ไ ๆ having more sharper, angular curves.

Another font IBM's is similar to is "DB TongSiam X". The ผ ฝ keys are a bit different.
https://thaifaces.com/thaitype/tongsiam/

The Model M also had Thai versions, but with a more modern font which has less character than the old typerwriter style font IMO. I think this user put Model M keycaps on his Model F AT.
viewtopic.php?f=62&t=7834&p=465787&hili ... ai#p465787
Image
Great info and references Jesse9766. For the non-Latin sets like Japanese, Korean and now Thai, I am not going to draw the characters myself and will be using suitable typefaces instead. I have found fonts that closely match the ones IBM used for Japanese and Korean and hopefully we can come up with something appropriate for Thai.

Are the links from the thaifaces site meant to be reference pictures or actual fonts to download? Would any of the fonts that Google offers work? Thasadith looks like a candidate.

https://fonts.google.com/?subset=thai
Nice to meet you. This is my first time to use deskthority. I'm using a translation app to communicate with you, so my English may be a little off.
I'm Japanese, and I'm familiar with Japanese keyboards and fonts; the Model M that IBM manufactured for Japan is called 5576-c01, and the font used is Ishii Gothic. This font has not been digitized and is impossible to use. The closest font to Ishii Gothic that exists today is Yu-Gothic. Japanese Kanji is completely different from Chinese Kanji, so please use a Japanese font when using Japanese characters. If you would like, I can help you create a Japanese layout. Sorry for the long post. Thank you for your time. :)

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Zed

02 May 2021, 19:33

:Dön: wrote:
02 May 2021, 13:17

Nice to meet you. This is my first time to use deskthority. I'm using a translation app to communicate with you, so my English may be a little off.
I'm Japanese, and I'm familiar with Japanese keyboards and fonts; the Model M that IBM manufactured for Japan is called 5576-c01, and the font used is Ishii Gothic. This font has not been digitized and is impossible to use. The closest font to Ishii Gothic that exists today is Yu-Gothic. Japanese Kanji is completely different from Chinese Kanji, so please use a Japanese font when using Japanese characters. If you would like, I can help you create a Japanese layout. Sorry for the long post. Thank you for your time. :)
Welcome Dön and thank you for the feedback! I have several questions that I hope you may be able to help me with. Here is what my current JIS layout looks like. I have used the MS Gothic font but I can change it to Yu-Gothic if you think that would be better. Please let me know if you find any errors or anything that should be changed.
JIS v16.1.png
JIS v16.1.png (243.54 KiB) Viewed 5516 times
My first question is about the bottom row. The F62/F77 keyboards don't have enough keys to do a proper JIS layout so I am trying to figure out a good compromise. Which bottom row (#1 or #2) do you like?

Could I also ask which versions of these you prefer?
JIS options.png
JIS options.png (55.13 KiB) Viewed 5516 times
#1 A - seems to be old type layout, #1 B - modern layout?

#2 A & B - If 'Alt' is on same key as 無変換 Muhenkan and 変換 Henkan, do you have to press 'Shift' to access 'Alt' function?

#3 A & B - Is 漢字番号 Kanjibangou used on modern computers?

Thank you! Please let me know if you have any trouble translating my writing.



For those reading along and wanting to know more about the JIS input method, here are some of the references I have been using:

Image

Here is a pdf markup of the previous picture with translations done by my nice neighbor. Note there is an error on the 'Alt' Kanji.
IBM_JPkeys.pdf
(1.24 MiB) Downloaded 84 times
And some links about the layout and the functionality of the extra keys:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Language_input_keys
http://xahlee.info/kbd/Japan_input_method.html

PRIPARA_PLAYER

02 May 2021, 19:55

As someone who also uses a heavily personalized JIS layout and is very much looking forward to the JIS keys, here's my opinion. I'm not Japanese, but have lived here for quite a few years and need to make use of Japanese input every day for work and whatnot.

I'd prefer row 1 to keep the alt symbols separate. That being said, I personally use the 無変換 key as enter so plan to leave this blank However I do frequently use 変換 and the hiragana/katakana key

I'd prefer layout A to match the originals. My 5576 and pingmaster both match that (although the pingmaster has a vastly different font, most of the labels match up)

I've never used a keyboard that combines alt with 無変換 and 変換 so not sure about the answer to that, the C01 and A01 have separate alt keys.

I've never seen 漢字番号 on a modern keyboard, but it was on the original.

While I've not done a close comparison myself, this is supposed to be the original font from the keyboards. Not sure if just an image like this will help you.
https://l-l-l.jp/wp/?p=1328

Also, in case this information is useful, Yu Gothic is often the standard font used in Japan, while MS Gothic is the font used by Windows UI. Either is something people would be familiar with, but I also believe Yu Gothic is closer to Ishii Gothic.

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Zed

02 May 2021, 20:20

PRIPARA_PLAYER wrote:
02 May 2021, 19:55
As someone who also uses a heavily personalized JIS layout and is very much looking forward to the JIS keys, here's my opinion. I'm not Japanese, but have lived here for quite a few years and need to make use of Japanese input every day for work and whatnot.

I'd prefer row 1 to keep the alt symbols separate. That being said, I personally use the 無変換 key as enter so plan to leave this blank However I do frequently use 変換 and the hiragana/katakana key

I'd prefer layout A to match the originals. My 5576 and pingmaster both match that (although the pingmaster has a vastly different font, most of the labels match up)

I've never used a keyboard that combines alt with 無変換 and 変換 so not sure about the answer to that, the C01 and A01 have separate alt keys.

I've never seen 漢字番号 on a modern keyboard, but it was on the original.

While I've not done a close comparison myself, this is supposed to be the original font from the keyboards. Not sure if just an image like this will help you.
https://l-l-l.jp/wp/?p=1328
Thanks for the feedback! One of the customers didn't recognize some of the hiragana punctuation symbols on the old 'A' layout "『』" so I worked up the more modern layout based on the Wiki link I posted above. Looks like we now have a vote for each.

The 'Alt' + 無変換 and 変換 came from modern aftermarket sets I was looking at (KBDFans) and seemed like a good way to deal with the lack of bottom row keys. I was wondering about the functionality of such a layout (especially since a lot of their Japanese sets are ANSI layout and I'm not sure they are really intended to be used as an actual Japanese keyboard) and how you access the Alt function. KBDFans goes with the centered 'Alt' and if shift is needed, the top justified version would be more IBM like.

Re. the 漢字番号 legend, any preference if I should put it on there? I don't think the front printing will be on anything larger than 1.5U keys (Ellipse?) so it would have to be one of the top printed versions and neither are historically accurate.

PRIPARA_PLAYER

02 May 2021, 20:47

Zed wrote:
02 May 2021, 20:20
Thanks for the feedback! One of the customers didn't recognize some of the hiragana punctuation symbols on the old 'A' layout "『』" so I worked up the more modern layout based on the Wiki link I posted above. Looks like we now have a vote for each.

The 'Alt' + 無変換 and 変換 came from modern aftermarket sets I was looking at (KBDFans) and seemed like a good way to deal with the lack of bottom row keys. I was wondering about the functionality of such a layout (especially since a lot of their Japanese sets are ANSI layout and I'm not sure they are really intended to be used as an actual Japanese keyboard) and how you access the Alt function. KBDFans goes with the centered 'Alt' and if shift is needed, the top justified version would be more IBM like.

Re. the 漢字番号 legend, any preference if I should put it on there? I don't think the front printing will be on anything larger than 1.5U keys (Ellipse?) so it would have to be one of the top printed versions and neither are historically accurate.
It's my understanding that those extra symbols are no longer functional on modern computers (they certainly don't work on mine), so they'd only be there for display purposes to match the originals. This would be my preference because a big part of the focus of this project has been to recreate the original keyboards as accurately as possible.

The C01 layout for the bottom row matches your row 1, which is why it's my preference to have separate alt keys. The 003 was the SSK model, whereas the C01 was the only model to actually use IBM buckling springs, so I think matching either one of those should be the priority. However, since you don't have the extra 003 keys and instead have alt keys, I'd lean to copying the C01 in this case. Given that you've left the legends for backspace/delete/page up/down in English, I'd lean towards the C01 overall.

The A01 and C01 have 漢字番号 front printed on the caps lock key, whereas the 001-003 had it front printed on a different key, so either way I think front printing would be most accurate. That being said, caps lock is another key I plan to leave blank (I have it mapped to backspace), so prioritize anyone else's feedback over mine.

User avatar
Zed

02 May 2021, 21:35

PRIPARA_PLAYER wrote:
02 May 2021, 20:47
Zed wrote:
02 May 2021, 20:20
Thanks for the feedback! One of the customers didn't recognize some of the hiragana punctuation symbols on the old 'A' layout "『』" so I worked up the more modern layout based on the Wiki link I posted above. Looks like we now have a vote for each.

The 'Alt' + 無変換 and 変換 came from modern aftermarket sets I was looking at (KBDFans) and seemed like a good way to deal with the lack of bottom row keys. I was wondering about the functionality of such a layout (especially since a lot of their Japanese sets are ANSI layout and I'm not sure they are really intended to be used as an actual Japanese keyboard) and how you access the Alt function. KBDFans goes with the centered 'Alt' and if shift is needed, the top justified version would be more IBM like.

Re. the 漢字番号 legend, any preference if I should put it on there? I don't think the front printing will be on anything larger than 1.5U keys (Ellipse?) so it would have to be one of the top printed versions and neither are historically accurate.
It's my understanding that those extra symbols are no longer functional on modern computers (they certainly don't work on mine), so they'd only be there for display purposes to match the originals. This would be my preference because a big part of the focus of this project has been to recreate the original keyboards as accurately as possible.

The C01 layout for the bottom row matches your row 1, which is why it's my preference to have separate alt keys. The 003 was the SSK model, whereas the C01 was the only model to actually use IBM buckling springs, so I think matching either one of those should be the priority. However, since you don't have the extra 003 keys and instead have alt keys, I'd lean to copying the C01 in this case. Given that you've left the legends for backspace/delete/page up/down in English, I'd lean towards the C01 overall.

The A01 and C01 have 漢字番号 front printed on the caps lock key, whereas the 001-003 had it front printed on a different key, so either way I think front printing would be most accurate. That being said, caps lock is another key I plan to leave blank (I have it mapped to backspace), so prioritize anyone else's feedback over mine.
'Alt Gr' isn't used correct? I do have more Japanese legends done but I wanted to make the set match the other ISO sets hence the English Backspace, Delete, etc. We could go back to these though:
JIS Mods options2.png
JIS Mods options2.png (40.95 KiB) Viewed 5448 times
Would any of those bottom row keys be useful or preferred?

User avatar
:Dön:

03 May 2021, 04:29

When referring to the Japanese layout, Topre's Real Force is the most common modern layout. c01 and others are different from the current keyboard layout. It is classic, but not practical.
ms gothic is a very lame font for people who know a lot about fonts. It is popular because it is a standard font in Windows, but it is not a good font.
Ishii Gothic is a font that was used a lot in the past, but it has not been digitized yet. It was recently announced that it will be digitized in a few years. The font similar to Ishii Gothic is Yu-Gothic. It is recommended that you use this one.
#1 I choose B for this question, A is different from the current one.
#2 This question is a very difficult one; I think it's too subtle to use the same key as Alt. I don't think Japanese people would actually be able to use it.
#3 "Kanji number" is not on the current keyboard. It's not necessary, but if you like the classic look, I think A is easier to read; B is hard to read because the characters are squeezed together.
Japanese IBM keyboards do not have a Model F. And the exact Model M is c01. And the only exact Model M is c01. a01, 001, etc. are all proprietary to IBM Japan and manufactured by Alps or Brother. If you want to make a replica of the JIS version of Model F, you may want to refer to various perspectives. If you are ok with that, just provide me with the material and I can create a layout.
Keep in mind that if you refer to the classic IBM JIS, it is difficult to use it as a current keyboard. The Toupre layout is correct.
It does not use Japanese for Delete, Insert, etc. It is only in demand if you want a classic look and feel.

PRIPARA_PLAYER

03 May 2021, 05:39

The extra symbols in 1A and kanji legends for backspace/etc should only be used if you want historical accuracy to the original IBM keyboards, if you want something that matches modern keyboards then it's 1B and English labels. Note that the modern Japanese backspace and enter keys match what you'll find on the C01 rather than the plain arrow keys in your original image. My preference is for historical accuracy rather than matching modern keyboards, but it sounds like I'm probably going to get overruled on that.

You're correct that Alt Gr isn't used. While there is the lacking windows key issue in the C01 bottom row layout, I think it's best to still copy it exactly and let the user work out how they want to handle that problem. If you do think the keyboard needs a windows key, my preference would be to replace one of the alt keys but to give the user both legends. Either that or mention ctrl + escape in the product description with large bold font so users know what to press.

On a side note, your first three front print extras are also all keys I would plan to pick up. I'm not sure if you can't have front print in the default set, but if you can then my preference would be for the first two to be in there, and the third is to again match historical accuracy over modern keyboards.

Editing to add random thought I just had, while the 003 and C01 are the two buckling spring keyboards most similar to this, the pingmaster was the keyboard that was used with 4704 terminals, so maybe there's an argument to be made that pingmaster legends would be best for historical accuracy.

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