F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards

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t!ng
Awake Sheep

16 Jan 2016, 13:37

Ellipse wrote: Yes I expect to take a photo of the prototypes with split shift layout as well as regular layout when they arrive. Here's one proposed layout on one of my original F77s. You'll be able to configure it to any layout you'd like as long as the original barrels support it.

These keys in the photo are 4704 one piece keys mixed with 1393464 extra bold airline keys from 1988 (probably from a near-new dye sublimation stencils made for the new run of airline keyboards).
f77.jpg
What kind of spacebar would that be? Small or large?

Ellipse

16 Jan 2016, 20:28

That is the original/regular/large size space bar. It is the only one that will work with the F62/F77 keyboards in their current regular and split right shift variations.

Here's an alternative layout proposal with Unicomp's smaller spacebar offering (slightly updated). This layout requires additional tooling costs to change the PCB, top inner assembly, and inner foam. GH user scumnc recently posted that he's interested in this layout. If anyone else is interested and wants to contribute towards the additional tooling costs, please let me know.

Of course splitting the costs would not be required to get this variation - once the costs are paid for, anyone can order them for the same price as the other F62 units. So if you want his proposed layout at the same price as the regular offering, that is fine too - please post here or let me know over PM.

Bottom row: 1.5, 1.25, 1.25, 1.25, 5.75, 1, 1, 1, 1
scumnc layout updated.png
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Last edited by Ellipse on 17 Jan 2016, 16:50, edited 3 times in total.

Ellipse

16 Jan 2016, 22:11

Thanks all for the logo feedback. It looks like the preference is for the blue version of the non-angled text logo, with "ultimate" removed from the subheading. I hope to add this logo to the boxes but it may be too costly. If anyone prefers no logo on the box I may be able to arrange that as well.

Expedited shipping question: Sea mail/container shipping from China is very slow and takes 2-4 weeks. Would anyone be interested in expedited shipping? It would then take one week for the keyboard to arrive to me. So in this case you would pay for DHL Express shipping to me, then I would do my QC and testing and then ship it to you by USPS Priority Mail. This should add about $50 to $75 in extra shipping costs depending on interest.
updated draft logo.jpg
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Last edited by Ellipse on 18 Jun 2017, 01:44, edited 1 time in total.

nh10798

17 Jan 2016, 00:07

I would be interested in the expedited shipping. Especially with the past experiences where sea mail takes 4+ weeks.

User avatar
potatowire

17 Jan 2016, 03:57

Ellipse wrote: So if you want his proposed layout at the same price as the regular offering, that is fine too - please post here or let me know over PM.
I'm definitely interested in this variation, depending on the tooling costs.

User avatar
bhtooefr

17 Jan 2016, 04:43

Expedited shipping is unnecessary for me, but the new layout with arrows is damn close to my dream 60% mechanically. Not sure I'd be willing to pitch in for tooling, but I'm interested at least at regular price.

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Hypersphere

17 Jan 2016, 15:13

@Ellipse: Have there been any issues with outgassing from the cast aluminum during the powder coating?

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kekstee

17 Jan 2016, 16:00

It's CNCed due to prohibitive tooling costs for casting, as far as I understand it.

Ellipse

17 Jan 2016, 17:01

Hypersphere the case prototypes were CNC milled so I don't know. Once I confirm the design they will likely be made from molds like the originals were. Making a measurement mistake on such an expensive mold would have put me way over budget so I decided against making the mold for the prototype cases.

kekstee this is a recent update from my original idea to CNC mill the cases.

Ellipse

17 Jan 2016, 19:37

here are the requested custom colors - please add to the list if I forgot any.

Please note that all of these colors require custom tooling and everyone wanting the color must help pay for the tooling. This is different from the custom scumnc 60% layout variation where anyone can get the layout once at least one person pays for the tooling.

Everyone interested in each type of color needs to agree on a specific Pantone number. The Pantone color on the screen does not match the actual paint color - to see something close to the actual color you'd need to go to a hardware store and look at their pantone book. Also the factory will not guarantee a match with the Pantone color you choose, just a very close approximation of the color, so you'd need to accept that going into the process. Also the factory doesn't guarantee an exact match with my Industrial Grey or off-white original Model F colors, so you'll need to know that there are no guarantees about the accuracy of any of the regular colors. RAL 7030 is not being used.

Very few people want a custom color right now - maybe 10-20 or so for all requests, out of the 249 pre-orders so far.

Red
Silver
Blue
Purple
Dark Grey
White
Pink
Green

A note that unpainted/clear coat/anodized/brushed/electrophoresis coating/sandblasting will not be offered.

chalks

17 Jan 2016, 19:44

Ellipse, is there any update on the smaller cases, in particular the one for the F77?

Is it feasible to make them? Do many people want them? What's your estimate of their cost?

keysmasher

17 Jan 2016, 20:40

Im interested in a smaller case for the f62

User avatar
joc

17 Jan 2016, 21:59

Ellipse: If you're still considering alternative layouts, I'm interested in an ortholinear layout like this:

Image
Source: https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=62 ... msg1721540

Backspace, Enter, and Right Shift: 2u (all optionally splittable)
Bottom row: 1.25u, 1.25u, 1.25u, 1.25u, 2u, 1.25u, 1.25u, 1.25u, 1.25u, 1u, 1u, 1u

Is anyone else interested in this 60% layout?

Ellipse

18 Jan 2016, 00:23

chalks - for the smaller cases we are waiting on a redesign of the xwhatsit controller and then I will send the components off for prototyping. You will not be able to order one for at least a few weeks, and you may have to wait until the non early bird round ends in August to have one ship. So far there seems to be very little interest in the smaller case - maybe 5-10 people while everyone else wants the original die cast design.

Is anyone else interested in the extruded aluminum smaller style cases?

Unless you only want the case that's slightly less wide, I recommend ordering the regular die cast case option for now.

Joc your layout can be done. I need to figure out tooling costs. Are you willing to get $500 to $1,000 together for extra tooling? That would be a one time amount - the keyboards would cost the same other than the tooling.

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guk
1896 Vintage Reds

18 Jan 2016, 00:31

Ellipse wrote:Is anyone else interested in the extruded aluminum smaller style cases?


+

User avatar
joc

18 Jan 2016, 00:51

Ellipse wrote: Joc your layout can be done. I need to figure out tooling costs. Are you willing to get $500 to $1,000 together for extra tooling? That would be a one time amount - the keyboards would cost the same other than the tooling.
I'd prefer the proposed layout if there's enough interest to get the tooling cost down to an extra ~$50.00 per keyboard.

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Ludovician

18 Jan 2016, 01:05

I would be interested in a smaller case.

If I were to get a smaller case by itself in the second round, do you know how much that would cost? And how small are we talking about?

Edit: That's assuming it would be compatible with the rest of the keyboard after applying the newer Xwhatsit. Is that the plan?

Ellipse

18 Jan 2016, 01:31

Is this the default layout (non-HHKB version) you think most people would like for their F62/F77? Of course it would all be regular keys, not the pictured keys and stepped Alt keys. Would most Kishsaver users not getting HHKB split right shift prefer the split backspace with a 1U backspace and a 1U "~ `" key? Should the upper left key be ~` or Esc as the default? Of course you can switch it to other layouts if you want once you have it.
DSC_5154.jpg
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Ludovician - you'd need about $70 to $80 more in my estimate - $10 PCB if you know how to desolder/solder the ribbon cable (or $20 capacitive + xwhatsit PCBs pre-soldered together), $20 bottom inner assembly (new design), and maybe $40 for the case (no idea on the pricing just yet as it hasn't been quoted).

I hope to use the smaller PCB for all offerings of the F77/F62 keyboards.

I will try to make the prototypes in time so that you can place an order for the regular case and I will make a note or post the small prototype results once I have them so you can switch your request at the factory without having to pay extra and have two cases (unless you wanted to).

User avatar
bhtooefr

18 Jan 2016, 01:41

So, this is a variant on scumnc's layout that's closer to what I want. Any other interest in it (instead or in addition)?

Image

(It's worth noting that the reason Alt and not Ctrl is the 1.25 U key, is because if Fn and Ctrl are the same size, they can be swapped easily. Also, Mac layouts will work well with this bottom row configuration.)

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Muirium
µ

18 Jan 2016, 02:13

Heathens.

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bhtooefr

18 Jan 2016, 02:17

Note that my suggestion is actually fairly heavily inspired by a vintage Apple layout. ;)

andrewjoy

18 Jan 2016, 10:51

Just to show it , this is the UNIX layout i have been talking about.
Attachments
keyboard-layout.png
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User avatar
gnarlsagan

18 Jan 2016, 18:44

bhtooefr wrote: So, this is a variant on scumnc's layout that's closer to what I want. Any other interest in it (instead or in addition)?

Image

(It's worth noting that the reason Alt and not Ctrl is the 1.25 U key, is because if Fn and Ctrl are the same size, they can be swapped easily. Also, Mac layouts will work well with this bottom row configuration.)
Yes I would like this layout. But is that a 5.75u Space bar? Can that length be made?

I would likely make a few small changes concerning key placement (Esc instead of ~, Ctrl moved to the left edge), but overall this is an amazing layout.

User avatar
t!ng
Awake Sheep

18 Jan 2016, 23:01

I find this project super exciting and thinking of jumping on the train. But I have a few questions:

Will the keyboard be programmable by us?
If yes do I have to buy a controller for this?
If yes which one?

More questions to come...

User avatar
Ludovician

18 Jan 2016, 23:51

t!ng wrote: I find this project super exciting and thinking of jumping on the train. But I have a few questions:

Will the keyboard be programmable by us?
If yes do I have to buy a controller for this?
If yes which one?

More questions to come...
Fully programmable, xwhatsit controller included with your order, no assembly required.

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ramnes
ПБТ НАВСЕГДА

19 Jan 2016, 00:03

That thread is really epic. Any news about the smaller case? :)

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t!ng
Awake Sheep

19 Jan 2016, 00:07

Sounds awesome.

Is the target price of $325 without keycaps still realistic?
How much will shipping approx. cost? Since this thing will be quiet heavy.

Ellipse

19 Jan 2016, 02:36

The prototypes arrived! Today I have been doing some thorough testing. So far they are in good shape for opening up the group buy soon!

yep t!ng the $325 price is final. Shipping cost is not yet confirmed.

User avatar
Muirium
µ

19 Jan 2016, 02:45

Are you going to handle global shipping all by yourself, Ellipse?

Having gotten some foreign shipping estimates from here in the US, myself, I discovered just how egregiously expensive that can be. Yikes! Shipping them directly out of China to end customers is the way to go, or indeed out of Hong Kong, which has such cheap yet quick shipping I've found it breathtaking the few times I bought from Tinnie over there.

Anyway, I'm here for a few weeks yet. And my fingers are well versed in the way of the Kishsaver, for comparison. Even if my wallet's in the trauma unit, so it could only be temporary…

User avatar
bhtooefr

19 Jan 2016, 03:06

gnarlsagan wrote: Yes I would like this layout. But is that a 5.75u Space bar? Can that length be made?

I would likely make a few small changes concerning key placement (Esc instead of ~, Ctrl moved to the left edge), but overall this is an amazing layout.
For what it's worth, this is mainly the mechanical layout I was worried about, as that's what Ellipse would have to tool for. Which key is in which position, he wouldn't have to tool for. I didn't optimize the legends as that wasn't necessary (in fact, the keyboard that this was based on had Esc instead of ~, it had Ctrl where Caps Lock is, and Caps Lock where Fn is). Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe ISO is also possible on this layout with no tooling changes, just different key caps and moving hammer/springs around.

As far as the 5.75 U spacebar, Unicomp has two current sizes - 7 U (used on 101/102 and 103/104-key keyboards) and 5.75 U (used on 104/105-key keyboards).

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