F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards

Ellipse

01 Jun 2018, 05:05

No fewer than 12 new spring sample variations are on their way! I'm hoping at least one will live up to what a New Model F should sound like!
May 2018 spring samples.jpg
May 2018 spring samples.jpg (302.95 KiB) Viewed 1684 times
Anderino confirmed JIS should not be a problem. The JIS set will be ordered from Unicomp.

yac I'm not sure what you're asking. I won't be putting legends on other-sized keys e.g. Fn on a 1.5U key if that's what you are asking.

User avatar
Elrick

01 Jun 2018, 07:05

Ellipse wrote: No fewer than 12 new spring sample variations are on their way! I'm hoping at least one will live up to what a New Model F should sound like!
May 2018 spring samples.jpg
TOP SECRET pics here, you're sure your not working for the Russians ;) .

Hope you find that special "Spring" that best imitates the older Model-F series.

It's all about how it feels within it's switch casing and the sound it makes, you are the ONLY person tasked with this important decision.

Make it count Ellipse because this may Make or Break you, deadly serious here because picking that perfect "Spring" is what it's all about.

User avatar
darkcruix

01 Jun 2018, 07:18

I wonder, if IBM back in he days did try many samples as well in their labs, or just took the first one and gave it to us. Would be very interesting to know, what they based it on (Beam Spring?, Selectric?).
>>When I type on my Model F it is so satisfying that I sometimes just type away for the sake of the sound and feel.<<

User avatar
FXT
XT

01 Jun 2018, 13:11

darkcruix wrote: I wonder, if IBM back in he days did try many samples as well in their labs, or just took the first one and gave it to us. Would be very interesting to know, what they based it on (Beam Spring?, Selectric?).
>>When I type on my Model F it is so satisfying that I sometimes just type away for the sake of the sound and feel.<<
I'm the same way. I fooled myself into thinking my F107 felt as nice as my XT, but I just didn't want to put my XT away after taking it out and using it for the first time in weeks. The F107 still feels good but the XT is so crisp and feels a bit more tactile to me. Really hope my F77 remake feels as good as my XT.

yac

01 Jun 2018, 13:47

Cool Ellipse, it's what i thought as well. Can i add to my order basically a complete keyboard, minus the case, in order to transplant it into my Model F?

Also, re the springs, this reminds me of attempts in the past to replicate certain tubes and transformers. It invariably shows they are unable to match the properties with any modern produced material, and best luck is apparently to be had then they hunt down vintage stock from the original time period, it's just machining and tempering after that. At this point, what i'd like is to be able to add a few of each of all the failed sample springs, that'd be fantastic, and fun to have on some keys imho :)

On the grayness issue, it's not possible to tell from pictures. You have the black cases, imho you should just dial in whatever you feel would best match that case, i feel the people going for the dark gray keys really shouldnt need to look at em all that often, whereas the stealthiness is eternal. I trust your judgement.
darkcruix wrote: I wonder, if IBM back in he days did try many samples as well in their labs, or just took the first one and gave it to us. Would be very interesting to know, what they based it on (Beam Spring?, Selectric?).
Indeed, hopefully it will all be in the book. IBM most likely had finely tuned production lines from their years in business, and in the years of the XT keyboard, they likely prototyped the spring and did this incredible job and just pushed it into production. They had the luxury of being well experienced in designing, proofing and producing springs.

I can't recall the ibm buckling spring mechanism timeline off-hand, maybe i've missed a video on that btw, but the XT was just a relatively small blip on this timeline, they likely fretted very little over the design, above what they would for any product. Military-grade back when it meant something ;)

Ellipse

02 Jun 2018, 20:46

sure yac feel free to pay for the cost of the keyboard minus $100 using the store item "$1 increments." Please do pay the separate shipping though.

On the subject of the springs, I just replied to a question on the project web site regarding the goals of the spring research and prototyping - please feel free to see the reply below.

The springs definitely change over time but not as much as you’d think in some examples.

The goal is to get the spring prototypes to sound close to what an original Model F would have sounded like fresh off the production line, not an exact match to what they sound like today where corrosion and humidity have definitely affected the sound of the springs (more so for the poorly stored Model F’s in humid-damp places than for many of the F’s in my collection).

I have a home movie of myself typing (for the first time!) on the family’s Model F XT keyboard from our IBM PC. Back then these keyboards were much newer. I have reviewed the sound of our Model F. (We no longer have the computer or keyboard though). It did not sound much different to many of the Model F keyboards today – still with a characteristic buckling upon actuation and a small amount of reverb. The reverb is in line with some of my best condition Model F keyboards today. No two Model F keyboards sound exactly alike; I am aiming for my favorite original Model F, a 1984 F122. With age the springs should even more closely approach the older springs.


Some of my earlier forum postings on the springs:
Updates on the spring research – samples matched original XT springs!
Over the past week I reviewed the new spring samples as well as all the old samples.
In summary I was able to match almost perfectly a spring sample to an original IBM spring pulled from an XT! I classify the archetypical spring as having some middle-pitched ringing typical of a Model F, but not too much (characteristic of a more well-used Model F keyboard or one with significant spring discoloration/corrosion). The original Model F springs have a wide range of sound – many in their current state are more higher pitched than what I’d like.
The key is to use Japanese wire (the right material and quality of wire are both important) and to let the springs age for at least one year (don’t worry I won’t be holding up the project to age the springs!). Samples I rejected in Dec. 2016 now have that perfect sound between loud ringing and no ringing – who would have known! Not even the American wire held up to the Japanese metal in terms of sound. The Chinese wire had the highest pitch, followed by the American wire (still too high), and then the Japanese wire which matched the ringing pitch.
I have compared many original XT springs from different keyboards and determined that the ones that ringed the most tended to be corroded/dulled but not rusted reddish brown. So I expect the springs will emit a bit more ringing (what I prefer to call the sound after a key is released – not including the plate reverberation sound) in the years to come. For now I expect the new Model F keyboards to have a mild ring matching an XT stored properly and with little to no corrosion. I do prefer the louder-than the average Model F ringing but it will have to develop after heavy usage and time!
I also performed some accelerated corrosion/rust tests on some of the sample springs. Generally a bit of discoloration/corrosion on the springs is not an issue for sound or performance, but reddish rust seems to add some tizz/squeaking to the springs in some cases, like with original XT springs. The production springs will have a protective finish.
Next step is to get Japanese wire spring samples made with the current supplier and with the updated/confirmed material choice from the lab. Key molds, inner foam, and inner assembly plates are still in production and expected to finish in a few weeks so we are not bottlenecking anything by getting things right with the springs.

I am hoping to loan out review units once the early bird batch arrives from China, but please keep in mind that every Model F keyboard in my own experience has a unique sound and feel, meaning a reviewer’s sample Model F has little chance of matching the sound of another original Model F or of one of these reproductions (the repro’s should sound similar to each other given they are all new and from the same early bird manufacturing batch). Given that, many a reviewer will certainly say something like “The sound is not the same as my original Model F.” Even the thickness of the inner foam and its state (disintegrating older foam or replacement newer foam) plays a role in the reverberation (thicker foam in my experience makes the keyboard quieter and less reverberant/musical). Two AT’s in my collection sound different from each other and from an XT. Two of my F77s sound different from each other and other F’s. My F107s sound different than my F122s. Even one of my 1985 F122s sounds different from my 6110344 from mid-1984. And it’s not just the sound – the state and type of springs also plays a factor in the typing feel/experience – a long time Model F user may prefer the worn down springs in his original F because of the reduced actuation force, compared to a new F (my new F’s take some time to break the springs in so that they are even smoother). Maybe a reviewer prefers quieter keyboards or keyboards at a $100 price point, which would rule out a new Model F.

User avatar
darkcruix

02 Jun 2018, 21:34

Ellipse wrote: ...
The goal is to get the spring prototypes to sound close to what an original Model F would have sounded like fresh off the production line, not an exact match to what they sound like today where corrosion and humidity have definitely affected the sound of the springs (more so for the poorly stored Model F’s in humid-damp places than for many of the F’s in my collection).
...
Do you mind, if I say that you are living in the minutest details. I am looking so forward to unpack the keyboard, put it on my desk and have a deep breath before typing... I have no doubt that all variants I ordered will be a joy to use.

Croktopus

03 Jun 2018, 17:03

Ellipse wrote: I am hoping to loan out review units once the early bird batch arrives from China
Can't wait for Thomas's video.

User avatar
Dingster

03 Jun 2018, 17:07

darkcruix wrote:
Ellipse wrote: ...
The goal is to get the spring prototypes to sound close to what an original Model F would have sounded like fresh off the production line, not an exact match to what they sound like today where corrosion and humidity have definitely affected the sound of the springs (more so for the poorly stored Model F’s in humid-damp places than for many of the F’s in my collection).
...
Do you mind, if I say that you are living in the minutest details. I am looking so forward to unpack the keyboard, put it on my desk and have a deep breath before typing... I have no doubt that all variants I ordered will be a joy to use.
How many did you order ;)

User avatar
darkcruix

03 Jun 2018, 17:11

Dingster wrote:
darkcruix wrote:
Ellipse wrote: ...
The goal is to get the spring prototypes to sound close to what an original Model F would have sounded like fresh off the production line, not an exact match to what they sound like today where corrosion and humidity have definitely affected the sound of the springs (more so for the poorly stored Model F’s in humid-damp places than for many of the F’s in my collection).
...
Do you mind, if I say that you are living in the minutest details. I am looking so forward to unpack the keyboard, put it on my desk and have a deep breath before typing... I have no doubt that all variants I ordered will be a joy to use.
How many did you order ;)
6 variants ;)

User avatar
Dingster

03 Jun 2018, 17:19

:shock: :shock: :shock: But also respect ;)

User avatar
darkcruix

03 Jun 2018, 17:58

I feel like I am investing in history ;) ... and in the future years, when we will only see people touching the top of smooth screens and talking to tubes, I will relax, sit back and type away.

yac

03 Jun 2018, 19:12

Ellipse wrote: sure yac feel free to pay for the cost of the keyboard minus $100 using the store item "$1 increments." Please do pay the separate shipping though.
No need to twist my arm, Joe, i'm getting another complete keyboard w/ shipping. Alu one this time.

After Early bird is done, i'm up for trying to machine some springs from vintage early 1980s feedstock, at your japanese mfgr, I'm telling you it will be dream-like. Springs are, like other tools, work-hardened from being used and their properties change just sitting there for decades, as well.

I agree with your sentiment that this is still a fully viable spring, and it will sound amazing in 20-30 years of sitting idle, or 2-5 years of being used. But if you have stock that has already sat for 30 years, and you just very carefully cold temp machine the springs(slow and expensive) you will have "flawless" XT springs and tbh they'll likely sound exactly the same for the next 30 years.

The difference will be minute, the law of diminishing returns is strong, probably won't be everyones cup of tea no doubt, but i'm telling ya, Joe, it'll be so worth it.

Dare i say it, audiophile-quality springs? I can jest.

User avatar
j0d1

05 Jun 2018, 05:47

FXT wrote: I'm the same way. I fooled myself into thinking my F107 felt as nice as my XT, but I just didn't want to put my XT away after taking it out and using it for the first time in weeks. The F107 still feels good but the XT is so crisp and feels a bit more tactile to me. Really hope my F77 remake feels as good as my XT.
I wonder if a XT barrels/flippers/springs transplant in the F107 would give it a more XT feel...

Xovaan

07 Jun 2018, 20:36

Hi Ellipse,

Glad to see such amazing progress on the project! Really glad to hear about the springs!

My address will be changing by the time the keyboards are shipping out. I was wondering if it were possible to change my addresses to "hold" for my orders until I know the best location to ship to?

Thanks for everything thus far-- really excited for all of this!

User avatar
constexpr

08 Jun 2018, 04:59

Hey fellas,

I ordered back in September, but I'm joining here just now cause I'm considering switching from the blank keycaps I ordered to a regular printed set. And I wanted to discuss a couple of things first :)

Going all the way back to these three posts by @consolation and @Zed, I'm wondering if there's been enough interest for the Cooler Master TK style numpad legends to warrant Ellipse making them.
If you don't know what I'm talking about, take a look at the second picture in the third post I linked. Here, I'll post a picture of the numpad in question again:
Image
I can't be (and apparently am not!) the only one who would love a layout like that. You get the standard nav cluster configuration and a numpad. Have there been any recent mentions of this?

@Ellipse, have you decided on whether you'll be printing these legends?

... If not, I've also seen a couple of mentions of a numpad without secondary legends. If I'm not mistaken, it was part of some of Ellipse's early drafts (as mentioned by Zed above). Something along the lines of this:
Image
If the first layout was a bit specific, this one is more generic, and would cover more use cases. As Zed put it:
Zed wrote: It wouldn't be perfect for every desired layout, but at least it wouldn't have the 'wrong' legends if you want to create something out of the ordinary.
Not to mention it looks clean. (imo having the standard Model M style arrow sublegends right above the dedicated arrows doesn't make much sense :)) It would fit right in with the other “F style” simplified legends.
Again: mentions, thoughts?

⊗⊚⊗⊚⊗⊚⊗⊚⊗⊚⊗⊚⊗⊚⊗⊚⊗⊚⊗⊚⊗⊚⊗⊚⊗⊚⊗⊚⊗⊚⊗⊚

The other thing I wanted to discuss was the Alt Gr key. On some (inter)national layouts this key is used extensively. Also, almost all Model Ms which sported an ISO layout included it. Therefore, I assumed we'd definitely be getting an Alt Gr option. Yet, I haven't seen any layout pics/renders that have it — nor was I able to find much discussion on the topic in this thread.

Are we getting Image?

User avatar
darkcruix

08 Jun 2018, 07:21

constexpr wrote: ...I'm wondering if there's been enough interest for the Cooler Master TK style numpad legends to warrant Ellipse making them...
I would instantly buy 4 of those. I didn't even think about this option and it is super slick.

Shihatsu

08 Jun 2018, 08:58

I would also buy one of these.

User avatar
Elrick

08 Jun 2018, 12:18

constexpr wrote: I ordered back in September, but I'm joining here just now cause I'm considering switching from the blank keycaps I ordered to a regular printed set. And I wanted to discuss a couple of things first :)
Like your first proposal shown, it covers all the things needed in a Nav Cluster and Numpad combined.

Sure hope that Ellipse will go down that route but who knows.....

yac

08 Jun 2018, 12:28

I'm thinking a visual configurator tool'd do the trick, where everyone could input exactly what they want(choosing from the myriad of keys in the 'system' as of now.

This could also allow for mods & personal variations on iso & ansi layouts, and it would naturally all be continually customizable for the participants as tastes, wants change in anticipation of this and next round.

User avatar
depletedvespene

08 Jun 2018, 12:30

constexpr wrote: ………
If you don't know what I'm talking about, take a look at the second picture in the third post I linked. Here, I'll post a picture of the numpad in question again:
Image
I can't be (and apparently am not!) the only one who would love a layout like that. You get the standard nav cluster configuration and a numpad. Have there been any recent mentions of this?

@Ellipse, have you decided on whether you'll be printing these legends?
I don't remember off the bat what option for the right block I went with, but this one I definitely like.

constexpr wrote: ………
The other thing I wanted to discuss was the Alt Gr key. On some (inter)national layouts this key is used extensively. Also, almost all Model Ms which sported an ISO layout included it. Therefore, I assumed we'd definitely be getting an Alt Gr option. Yet, I haven't seen any layout pics/renders that have it — nor was I able to find much discussion on the topic in this thread.

Are we getting Image?
Considering several international layouts are supported (ES-419, in my case), I would expect the AltGr key to come as a standard keycap in those sets.

User avatar
Zed

08 Jun 2018, 15:16

constexpr wrote: The other thing I wanted to discuss was the Alt Gr key. On some (inter)national layouts this key is used extensively. Also, almost all Model Ms which sported an ISO layout included it. Therefore, I assumed we'd definitely be getting an Alt Gr option. Yet, I haven't seen any layout pics/renders that have it — nor was I able to find much discussion on the topic in this thread.

Are we getting Image?
No worries on the 'AltGr' key. All the International layouts will have it.

As far as the Cooler Master style numpad goes, that is a good question. It has been so long, I don't remember if Ellipse agreed to print those or not.

User avatar
constexpr

08 Jun 2018, 16:19

Thanks for the replies. Glad you like it! Here's hoping Ellipse likes it too :D
Zed wrote: No worries on the 'AltGr' key. All the International layouts will have it.
That's good to hear. If that's the case, I'm assuming I'll be able to get it as an extra (which is what I was after).

nickg

08 Jun 2018, 16:54

If I were to order a second one would I have to wait for both to pass your QA testing for them to be sent out? Or would it be two different shipments? Which i think i'd prefer honestly. I ordered under my GH name but i like this website better so im posting here.

Ellipse

09 Jun 2018, 03:41

Thanks Zed on the Alt Gr.

The CM style is available but only as an add on, not installed on the keyboards to minimize adding further variations for the factory to do.

nickg your second order would get to skip the line in that case. I'm expecting to ship in order of when your first F62/F77 order came in, even if you ordered extras/keyboards in later orders (ship them together).

TerminalJunkie

09 Jun 2018, 06:07

Ellipse, could you please post the full set of key legends that will be printed as part of this project?

User avatar
darkcruix

09 Jun 2018, 07:47

Ellipse wrote: The CM style is available but only as an add on, not installed on the keyboards to minimize adding further variations for the factory to do.
What is the price for one full set?

Takashi

09 Jun 2018, 11:07

Image

I would also be very interested in adding this set to my order!

Takashi

09 Jun 2018, 11:09

By the way... Chyrosran22 has made an extensive Model-F review:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9Jds326gks

User avatar
constexpr

09 Jun 2018, 11:44

Ellipse wrote: The CM style is available but only as an add on, not installed on the keyboards to minimize adding further variations for the factory to do.
Alright, awesome, that's exactly what I was looking for. Thanks!
How about the second one (no sublegends), will you be offering that as an add-on too?

Post Reply

Return to “Group buys”