F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards

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wobbled

02 Nov 2018, 11:30

Am I going to be one of the rare few not setting up a solenoid with these boards? I really don't see the point, obviously on beamsprings it's fair since they are ridiculous in every way possible, but I see these as actual workhorse daily-use end game boards and a solenoid just turns it in to a bit of a joke to me.

User avatar
Muirium
µ

02 Nov 2018, 11:47

I quite agree. My Kishsaver gets a lot more use than my beamspring. Absolutely no need for a solenoid in the F. I don’t even know where it would fit in that low profile case. While the 3278 could swallow a thesaurus!

User avatar
depletedvespene

02 Nov 2018, 13:04

wobbled wrote: Am I going to be one of the rare few not setting up a solenoid with these boards?
Seems we're not gonna be that few (but we all are rare gits... that's another issue, though :mrgreen: ).

User avatar
Khers

02 Nov 2018, 13:07

No solenoid in my Ellipsesaver either, my solenoid action is limited to the beamer.

User avatar
pansku
Member of the Beam Spring cult

02 Nov 2018, 21:31

Solenoid is reserved exclusively for beam springs only

swedishpiehole

02 Nov 2018, 22:00

Stepping in here because I preordered an F62 that I can't wait to get. Sorry for the noob question, but what is a solenoid?

Edit: OK I poked around and found that it's to enhance the key sounds. I also found this post from Ellipse that says a solenoid can be added to his new Model Fs: https://www.modelfkeyboards.com/questio ... -solenoid/

User avatar
Sangdrax

02 Nov 2018, 23:39

wobbled wrote: a solenoid just turns it in to a bit of a joke to me.
It's not like Model F's didn't come with solenoids. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2pFoo_Mvluo

I'd be lying if I said I don't have it turned off most of the time though. Having the option is it's own bit of cool though, like a turbocharger on an engine.

User avatar
wobbled

03 Nov 2018, 01:13

Sangdrax wrote:
wobbled wrote: a solenoid just turns it in to a bit of a joke to me.
It's not like Model F's didn't come with solenoids. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2pFoo_Mvluo

I'd be lying if I said I don't have it turned off most of the time though. Having the option is it's own bit of cool though, like a turbocharger on an engine.
That's true, but most of them boards were used for collecting spare parts since they're not all that great, a lot of them were parted out for flippers, springs, and caps for Lot_lizard I believe.

User avatar
OldIsNew

03 Nov 2018, 04:50

wobbled wrote: ... most of them boards were used for collecting spare parts since they're not all that great, a lot of them were parted out for flippers, springs, and caps ...

Say it ain't so Joe! Please say it ain't so!


I love my 3178. I love the solenoid, AND as a bonus the space bar is insanely heavy and pingy!

User avatar
wobbled

03 Nov 2018, 04:57

Joe didn't part them out, I think it was done for Lot_Lizards Model MF project, though I could be wrong. It's been a while since that thread was active.

User avatar
darkcruix

03 Nov 2018, 18:50

I wonder about the dye sub process. Was there already a test run? I'd love to hear some updates on the progress.

Ellipse

03 Nov 2018, 19:33

No dye sub updates yet darkcruix. Updated assembled spring+flipper samples will arrive next week. If all goes well, mass assembly of the flippers and springs can start.

Sp33ls

05 Nov 2018, 16:33

Hey Ellipse,

Any chances that the compact F77's will ship this year?

Thanks again! :)

Ellipse

06 Nov 2018, 00:44

Sorry we are looking at early next year.

User avatar
JP!

06 Nov 2018, 00:53

Ellipse wrote: Sorry we are looking at early next year.
:D

Ellipse

06 Nov 2018, 13:54

The assembled spring samples arrived. Machine 1 is still producing perfect assemblies but machines 2 and 3 need some adjustment. The difference in the sound output upon key press and release is noticeable with improperly attached springs. I have asked the factory to start full assembly with Machine 1 for now to save time.

User avatar
Hypersphere

06 Nov 2018, 14:04

@Ellipse: Many thanks for your ever-vigilant quality control! It's not easy maintaining quality at a distance, especially if the manufacturers are accustomed to passing through inferior products.

User avatar
scottc

06 Nov 2018, 14:43

What was the original thread title? Newly manufactured Model F keyboards in 2016?

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Khers

06 Nov 2018, 14:46

scottc wrote: What was the original thread title? Newly manufactured Model F keyboards in 2016?
:lol: :lol: :lol:

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Muirium
µ

06 Nov 2018, 15:42

Well, you know how killer Chinese manufacturing is at lightning fast turnaround and breathtakingly low production costs. Waka waka.

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FXT
XT

06 Nov 2018, 16:38

At least I've got more time to decide if I want to order a Kishsaver to go with my F77.

User avatar
Hypersphere

06 Nov 2018, 16:44

Muirium wrote: Well, you know how killer Chinese manufacturing is at lightning fast turnaround and breathtakingly low production costs. Waka waka.
And unless scrupulously monitored and enforced, low quality control.

It is sad that so many enterprises have turned to China for manufacturing in order to save on production costs. Not that labor or work ethics in the respective home countries are any better, but at least these qualities are easier to monitor and enforce when close at hand. I should think that customers would be willing to pay more for better reliability.

User avatar
Elrick

17 Nov 2018, 01:29

Hypersphere wrote: It is sad that so many enterprises have turned to China for manufacturing in order to save on production costs.
Ask any Accountant running inside any Business today, it will ALWAYS be about increased PROFIT above all else.
Hypersphere wrote: Not that labor or work ethics in the respective home countries are any better, but at least these qualities are easier to monitor and enforce when close at hand.
Don't be too sure about that, use to remember buying and using Toasters, TV's and Stereo Equipment here in Convict Town many decades ago (60's, 70's and early 80's). They were all CRAP when it came to reliability and long term usage. Bits and pieces just broke off, stopped working and simply disintegrated into useless rubbish (plastics and cad-plated thin metals).
Hypersphere wrote: I should think that customers would be willing to pay more for better reliability.
YES they would but where would that be achieved these days? Like to think that somewhere on Earth you could buy decent quality gear at very low prices but guess what, it will only be in someone's imagination.

There are very few individuals that would fork out (my hypothetical example) $2000USD for a simple 'Toaster' and I suspect that 'Toaster' would have a very restricted market to compete in and the Company producing it, would in time collapse simply due to redundant orders and lack of interest, even though it would survive an American ICBM strike.

There are better quality gear being made but it's a tiny bit expensive so pining for the old days isn't something I do because I still remember them when I use my current Toaster, TV and Stereo Equipment and all work reliably well but ALL are unfortunately made in China or Taiwan.

Go figure, we here in the West are now better at making poisons and war toys, than ever making anything worthwhile and decent. Instead we delude ourselves that 'years ago' was far better than today, normal inflection about believing in something that had NEVER occurred.

Just suppose we chose what we want to believe and produce here in Western Countries today and I can tell you now, it isn't for a better or hopeful future for our children and grand children.

Ellipse

17 Nov 2018, 01:46

Regarding getting extra key sets (someone was asking me over email about them): If you plan on using this keyboard for decades, I recommend getting extra key sets as the key top texture does wear down with extended usage.

Regarding manufacturing in China, I will note that through careful monitoring of quality control and not accepting any parts below my quality control standards, the factories have successfully managed to meet IBM's 1980s US factory tolerances and finish production for the first round - they just needed a lot more time than they had estimated and had to scrap lots of tooling in the process and start again (especially with the keys, 50+ different batches of springs over nearly three years, and plate bending apparatus).

Agreed Elrick on your point about costs. It may have been faster to manufacture in the US but at part costs of up to 3-4 times that of the parts overseas according to estimates I received, I could not have achieved my goal of making as many Model F keyboards to IBM's standards as possible.

Assembly of the springs and flippers is taking longer than expected and is arguably the trickiest part of assembly, so I want to make sure they get this right so that the springs do not sound bad or become detached.

User avatar
Elrick

17 Nov 2018, 03:50

Ellipse wrote: Assembly of the springs and flippers is taking longer than expected and is arguably the trickiest part of assembly, so I want to make sure they get this right so that the springs do not sound bad or become detached.
THIS is the MOST important part of this keyboard.

Good to know you're on this, so each and every keyboard that we receive has been 'Ellipse-tuned and tested" before rolling off the sales floor (like a brand new car) :maverick:.

User avatar
darkcruix

17 Nov 2018, 08:52

I can only agree and I am looking so forward to receive my keyboards next year!

NilesLinus

17 Nov 2018, 10:39

Ellipse, in case you are feeling any undue pressure, let me just echo what some others on this board have already intimated and say how much I respect the heck out of you for your insistence on quality and your rigorous attention to craftsmanship, tight tolerances, and details. I'm new to the party, it's true, but I for one am quite happy to wait patiently for a product intended to literally outlast my lifespan. Heck, I think I may even want your autograph :)

NilesLinus

17 Nov 2018, 10:40

Ellipse, in case you are feeling any undue pressure, let me just echo what some others on this board have already intimated and say how much I respect the heck out of you for your insistence on quality and your rigorous attention to craftsmanship, tight tolerances, and details. I'm new to the party, it's true, but I for one am quite happy to wait patiently for a product intended to literally outlast my lifespan. Heck, I think I may even want your autograph :)

User avatar
darkcruix

26 Nov 2018, 00:52

NilesLinus wrote: Ellipse, in case you are feeling any undue pressure, let me just echo what some others on this board have already intimated and say how much I respect the heck out of you for your insistence on quality and your rigorous attention to craftsmanship, tight tolerances, and details. I'm new to the party, it's true, but I for one am quite happy to wait patiently for a product intended to literally outlast my lifespan. Heck, I think I may even want your autograph :)
Echoing this!!! A world of stuff that is thrown away within a year or two is crazy in most cases. So glad, Ellipse has chosen a different path - especially in the IT industry. Thanks for not giving in and staying on this road.

Ellipse

27 Nov 2018, 06:43

I received some more assembled spring samples today. Machine 1 is still producing approved assemblies. Machine 3 is improved but still needs adjustment. Machine 2 needs adjustment. I've asked the factory to start using just Machine 1 so we can get things moving. I sent them a quality control video showing the testing of springs and emphasizing the sound differences of good and bad assemblies. Even a fraction of 1 mm out of spec in the distance between spring and nub causes performance and sound issues. Also even a few degrees off for the spring angle attachment to the flipper is noticeable. The assembly process delays are unfortunate but the factory will keep making adjustments so all keyboards pass my quality control standards.

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