F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards

User avatar
Muirium
µ

18 Aug 2019, 18:43

LessPaul wrote:
18 Aug 2019, 18:19
I am a bit confused regarding the possible Bluetooth option which may be offered in the future. I had thought the F62/F77 keyboard manufacturing was going to be a one and done sort of thing, however this seems to indicate there will be future production runs, with possible additional options. Where did I become confused?
Premature talk of future improvements? That’s a dangerous path:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osborne_effect

Ellipse

18 Aug 2019, 18:56

No, the bluetooth Model F involves a controller swap. It will not be a separate production run or something I will be taking on.

Ellipse

19 Aug 2019, 23:41

Latest update from the factory:

They are still on track to finish all early bird assembly by the end of August.

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AlpsComeback

20 Aug 2019, 00:55

So my keyboard was ordered in November 2018; does that put me in the early bird category? (sorry if this has been asked before)

Ellipse

20 Aug 2019, 02:52

Yes, we are still in the early bird round. You can still order this month and be a part of the early bird round as I ordered extra keyboards and parts.

consensual-penis

20 Aug 2019, 03:41

out of curiosity, how many keyboards to you need to produce at the moment?


edit: also, when would the orders with the low serial numbers be going out?

gianni

20 Aug 2019, 12:47

Dye sub process seems not finalized yet, not a trivial thing, so I wonder what's the delivery date.

Ellipse

20 Aug 2019, 13:43

Correct, dye sub is not yet finished. Orders should start going out in mid to late October.

yac

22 Aug 2019, 18:26

Ellipse wrote:
08 Aug 2019, 01:39
Regarding Pg Up and Pg Dn, interestingly my 1391472 from 1987 has a half space between Pg and Up and no space between Pg and Dn. Probably best to go with ryvnf's recommendation of no spaces.
I took a look at my old Model F(pictured in another thread here) and it too has a half space before Up and no space before Dn. Considering it took this long for anyone to notice, for paying maximum homage to the original i would keep the half space before Up, at the very least i hope there could be space in an odd template for it eventually?

yac

22 Aug 2019, 18:43

Humanoid wrote:
31 Jul 2019, 22:53
What are we going to do about it I guess? We will just wait and in the mail will be a keyboard at some point in time in the future.

I guess if you really want to find out, just spend more money to buy the Ellipse book.
Well, i for one am loving the drawn-out schedule, i wish the guy would chime in who started writing about joining the GB when he was in high school, he must've graduated by now and gone off to college, that is the mindset you need with this. Get by with what you can to survive, but get ready for It to arrive. I'm thinking even silenced with floss and lightly greased the Ellipse F's are likely to be about as loud as my XT F, so taking it to the office is going to be interesting. Good thing most of us who came up on old F can set up a proper (sound-proofed) office and/or study. In fact, i want a early eighties-styled pre-office and office, complete with cute(but not too hot) secretary and the fine leather smoke-filled lounge feeling.

Please understand that all of us are mere custodians of our Ellipse Model Fs, their mechanics will outlast us(that controller remains to be seen, most likely fine), exactly the same as with a fine Patek Philippe. To me it's all about the tolerances, i plan to take my original XT F along with the Ellipse F, and having them professionally measured. So what if we wait a few more months, years? (I think its months now) ;)

/K

ryvnf

22 Aug 2019, 21:24

yac wrote:
22 Aug 2019, 18:26
I took a look at my old Model F(pictured in another thread here) and it too has a half space before Up and no space before Dn. Considering it took this long for anyone to notice, for paying maximum homage to the original i would keep the half space before Up, at the very least i hope there could be space in an odd template for it eventually?
I'm very much against keeping the spacing in "PgUp" and "PgDn" for the front-printed keys HHKB-set. It looks very inconsistent and messy when those legends look like "Pg Up" and "Pg Dn" when other legends are spelled "PrtSc" and "ScrLk".

When you say that the original Model F keyboards have spacing between "Pg" and "Up" you are looking at the legends on the numpad. I would be fine keeping those legends for the numpad to stay true to the original. The numpad also doesn't have other key legends that make that look completely out of place (like the HHKB-frontprinted set).

And while it took a couple of months until someone pointed that out, I noticed it almost immediately after I started looking at what keys to order. And more people will notice the inconsistency when the keyboards ship. Fixing it now wouldn't require more than adjusting the legends a couple of pixels. Leave it like it is and people like me will have to live with the inconsistency forever.

I post my comparison picture here again. Look at how inconsistent "Pg Up" and "Pg Dn" looks next to "PrtSc" and "ScrLk". IBM wouldn't have accepted this.
frontprint.png
frontprint.png (16.79 KiB) Viewed 3822 times

User avatar
Zed

22 Aug 2019, 23:01

ryvnf wrote:
22 Aug 2019, 21:24
yac wrote:
22 Aug 2019, 18:26
I took a look at my old Model F(pictured in another thread here) and it too has a half space before Up and no space before Dn. Considering it took this long for anyone to notice, for paying maximum homage to the original i would keep the half space before Up, at the very least i hope there could be space in an odd template for it eventually?
I'm very much against keeping the spacing in "PgUp" and "PgDn" for the front-printed keys HHKB-set. It looks very inconsistent and messy when those legends look like "Pg Up" and "Pg Dn" when other legends are spelled "PrtSc" and "ScrLk".

When you say that the original Model F keyboards have spacing between "Pg" and "Up" you are looking at the legends on the numpad. I would be fine keeping those legends for the numpad to stay true to the original. The numpad also doesn't have other key legends that make that look completely out of place (like the HHKB-frontprinted set).

And while it took a couple of months until someone pointed that out, I noticed it almost immediately after I started looking at what keys to order. And more people will notice the inconsistency when the keyboards ship. Fixing it now wouldn't require more than adjusting the legends a couple of pixels. Leave it like it is and people like me will have to live with the inconsistency forever.

I post my comparison picture here again. Look at how inconsistent "Pg Up" and "Pg Dn" looks next to "PrtSc" and "ScrLk". IBM wouldn't have accepted this.

frontprint.png
The spaces are being taken out for the HHKB front print and to be consistent, I was going to take them out of the other sets (Industrial SSK and SSK Num Pad) which have them as well. This leaves the top print from the base set num pad and num pad options to deal with. I am not a fan of having a mix of space and no space especially since IBM took the space out of the legend that (at least in my version) is not as wide to begin with. (Pg Dn < Pg Up by .25mm) I would prefer to be consistent between the top print and front print legends but I guess there really won't be anyone putting front print "Pg Up" and "Pg Dn" keys on a keyboard with a top print num pad.

Humanoid

23 Aug 2019, 07:04

yac wrote:
22 Aug 2019, 18:43
Humanoid wrote:
31 Jul 2019, 22:53
What are we going to do about it I guess? We will just wait and in the mail will be a keyboard at some point in time in the future.

I guess if you really want to find out, just spend more money to buy the Ellipse book.
Well, i for one am loving the drawn-out schedule, ...
Uhm.. you misattributed that quote. I never said that. That was segacontroller. When I was reading that quote, it felt so strange because it didn't sound like me. I was wondering how I was unable to recognize my own writing.

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AJM

23 Aug 2019, 11:00

I don't quite understand, what you all are talking about. On Model F XT/ATs there is a space between "Pg Up" AND "Pg Dn", only at "Pg Dn" it's a bit smaller.
"PgUp" and "PgDn" without space screams "Model-M".

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consolation

23 Aug 2019, 13:26

Yep - we reached peak OCD...

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Muirium
µ

23 Aug 2019, 13:42

Peak? As if. Spacing is unavoidable, simple stuff. If I had the money for this, or inclination to fight the good obsessive compulsive fight, you’d be hearing about kerning and stroke width! Count yourselves lucky.

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depletedvespene

23 Aug 2019, 13:44

consolation wrote:
23 Aug 2019, 13:26
Yep - we reached peak OCD...
Not even close. Certain other keyboards' caps are subject to all kinds of fist fights regarding the kerning between two given letters. :mrgreen:

User avatar
Muirium
µ

24 Aug 2019, 09:22

For good reason! No one should put up with that SHIF T

NilesLinus

31 Aug 2019, 02:31

So did manufacturing wrap on schedule?

Ellipse

31 Aug 2019, 02:59

They are wrapping up in the next 1-2 weeks which includes palletizing. Currently getting freight forwarder quotations. The factory put some split right shift top inner assemblies with regular PCBs, so they have to correct a number of the already assembled keyboards.

Ellipse

31 Aug 2019, 21:19

As we wait for the factory to wrap up mass assembly in a two weeks, I have written an article on misconceptions about the Model F. The goal of the article is to help explain some of the initial hesitations people have had about the Model F before they did some more reading and research. I think that the biggest barrier to increased adoption of the Model F is lack of awareness in the market.

If you have anything to add or discuss that would help convince people on the Model F feel free to post here or message me.

https://www.modelfkeyboards.com/misconc ... ople-away/

NilesLinus

01 Sep 2019, 19:27

Good read, Ellipse. I agree with your points. I’m not sure I know anyone else that is as crazy as I am when it comes to obsessive commitment to quality, but I expect the keyboards to speak for themselves once they are in the hands of their owners and become instruments of retro proselytization.

!!!!!!! How is the dye sub coming? Any ordered sets complete yet? !!!!!!!

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depletedvespene

02 Sep 2019, 18:29

Ellipse wrote:
31 Aug 2019, 21:19
As we wait for the factory to wrap up mass assembly in a two weeks, I have written an article on misconceptions about the Model F. The goal of the article is to help explain some of the initial hesitations people have had about the Model F before they did some more reading and research. I think that the biggest barrier to increased adoption of the Model F is lack of awareness in the market.

If you have anything to add or discuss that would help convince people on the Model F feel free to post here or message me.

https://www.modelfkeyboards.com/misconc ... ople-away/
I think the hardest selling point for the repros, at least with some people (*), is going to be the physical layouts themselves. Sure, compact lovers will be happy with the F62, but those (**) who cut their teeth with the larger form factors (TKL and upwards) will forever bemoan the lack of a proper F row, even if using an F77. Many times during the course of the early bird round, I've refrained myself from saying "Ellìpse, go TKL!" or "75%, FFS!", knowing that you're focused on the classic 4704 layouts. But...

... if all goes well now, that's a point you'll need to reconsider for the second round. TKLs do exist (SSK), but they've never ceased to be in high demand (and the repros could be made in the EFTKL form factor instead, so they won't feel as a simple rehash). Also, in between TKL and compact keyboards, there's the 75% form factor, which simply doesn't exist in buckling springs and could be quite another innovation (for that matter, the 96% could finally be done properly, liberating that form factor from its defficient 1800 roots!).


(*): Me, okay? ME. And perhaps a few others, too ;)

(**): See (*).

User avatar
Redmaus
Gotta start somewhere

02 Sep 2019, 20:45

Ellipse wrote:
31 Aug 2019, 21:19
As we wait for the factory to wrap up mass assembly in a two weeks, I have written an article on misconceptions about the Model F. The goal of the article is to help explain some of the initial hesitations people have had about the Model F before they did some more reading and research. I think that the biggest barrier to increased adoption of the Model F is lack of awareness in the market.

If you have anything to add or discuss that would help convince people on the Model F feel free to post here or message me.

https://www.modelfkeyboards.com/misconc ... ople-away/
I'd include more differences between membrane buckling spring and capacitive, explaining that model F's are far superior to their later M brothers. Many that are new to this hobby don't even know about model F's, since the model M has a lot more coverage and fame.

I feel explaining such a major difference in detail would go a long way. With pictures of comparing a model F PCB to a model M membrane, and pictures showing model F hammers compared to model M hammers. Hope this helps :D

consensual-penis

03 Sep 2019, 03:30

Redmaus wrote:
02 Sep 2019, 20:45
Ellipse wrote:
31 Aug 2019, 21:19
As we wait for the factory to wrap up mass assembly in a two weeks, I have written an article on misconceptions about the Model F. The goal of the article is to help explain some of the initial hesitations people have had about the Model F before they did some more reading and research. I think that the biggest barrier to increased adoption of the Model F is lack of awareness in the market.

If you have anything to add or discuss that would help convince people on the Model F feel free to post here or message me.

https://www.modelfkeyboards.com/misconc ... ople-away/
I'd include more differences between membrane buckling spring and capacitive, explaining that model F's are far superior to their later M brothers. Many that are new to this hobby don't even know about model F's, since the model M has a lot more coverage and fame.

I feel explaining such a major difference in detail would go a long way. With pictures of comparing a model F PCB to a model M membrane, and pictures showing model F hammers compared to model M hammers. Hope this helps :D
when you say hammers, I assume you are talking about the thing that actually makes contact with the pcb(still a noob when it comes to these old keyboards)?

In terms of the switches themselves, is there any difference between the model m and f?

User avatar
Coco

03 Sep 2019, 03:39

There is a great deal of difference between the Model M and Model F. Chyrosran22 did a great review video on them (;

Model M review: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r5H58uudo1Y

Model F review: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9Jds326gks&t=8s

cheater

04 Sep 2019, 04:43

Hi, I was wondering if the F will be available with physical function keys, perhaps in the Zinc casing variant? My preferred option would be function keys above the numbers row, in groups of 4, on a keyboard that's "as wide as" a TKL (remembering the wide "margins" on the sides).

In case that's never going to be an option - is the Zinc casing going to be easy to mill? Would it be possible to receive it unpainted, or something to that effect? Is it possible to buy extra switch assemblies?

Thanks.

Ellipse

04 Sep 2019, 05:51

Sorry cheater not possible to add key rows to a Model F. You could make the F77 right side block physical function keys though.

yac

04 Sep 2019, 20:53

Humanoid wrote:
23 Aug 2019, 07:04
yac wrote:
22 Aug 2019, 18:43
Humanoid wrote:
31 Jul 2019, 22:53
What are we going to do about it I guess? We will just wait and in the mail will be a keyboard at some point in time in the future.

I guess if you really want to find out, just spend more money to buy the Ellipse book.
Well, i for one am loving the drawn-out schedule, ...
Uhm.. you misattributed that quote. I never said that. That was segacontroller. When I was reading that quote, it felt so strange because it didn't sound like me. I was wondering how I was unable to recognize my own writing.
Good catch, it was by mistake, nested quotes got me. Apologies!

Ellipse

07 Sep 2019, 18:28

Brand New Model F Keyboards are being palletized for their journey across the ocean this month!
2019 09 07 assembled keyboards (1).jpg
2019 09 07 assembled keyboards (1).jpg (2.17 MiB) Viewed 1894 times
2019 09 07 assembled keyboards (2).jpg
2019 09 07 assembled keyboards (2).jpg (1.5 MiB) Viewed 1894 times

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