F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards

iamacicada

27 Nov 2019, 04:41

consolation wrote:
26 Nov 2019, 23:43
Wow, just wow... People are complaining about others getting keyboards earlier, EVEN THOUGH IT WON'T AFFECT WHEN THEY GET THEIRS, might even help speed things along! (And, they still get preferential treatment - when their order can be completed...) Everyday, the human race turns out to be a bit pettier and more disappointing than one expects; no matter how low you set your expectations. Way to go people...
Yeah I was wondering if people misunderstood something or they were just THAT entitled.

Ellipse

28 Nov 2019, 22:33

Thanks all for the feedback - I will try to get many of the no printed keys orders out then.

If anyone wants to switch to no printed keys please message me.

Zimyver

29 Nov 2019, 07:35

iamacicada wrote:
27 Nov 2019, 04:41
consolation wrote:
26 Nov 2019, 23:43
Wow, just wow... People are complaining about others getting keyboards earlier, EVEN THOUGH IT WON'T AFFECT WHEN THEY GET THEIRS, might even help speed things along! (And, they still get preferential treatment - when their order can be completed...) Everyday, the human race turns out to be a bit pettier and more disappointing than one expects; no matter how low you set your expectations. Way to go people...
Yeah I was wondering if people misunderstood something or they were just THAT entitled.
Shipping blank boards earlier will mean that they won't need to be shipped later. freeing up time to ship keyboards with legends faster later. Meaning that people with legends will also get theirs sooner they they otherwise would.

It's just people butt hurt about not being first. If they actually thought it through then they would recognise the increased efficiency will get them theirs sooner.

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Cubelia

29 Nov 2019, 21:43

To be honest, shipping those ones first would be totally feasible as others had said. Another plus is that inventory takes $ to stay at storage(if Ellipse didn't place the goods in his own place), getting as many keyboards out earlier will reduce the strain on storage cost. It still is the orders with low serial perks got shipped first. The schedule for printed keys will not be delayed, think of it like some sort of warm up when Ellipse still had spare time before everything for printed keys is ready.

IMO no one really knows how fast the dye sub process would go as it won't be easy once it went under mass production scale. Maybe it would take weeks or months to fine-tune everything until it matches OG. Meanwhile orders that could already be shipped will also stay in storage.

russypt

03 Dec 2019, 16:41

I purchased the low serial option with printed caps, but I support shipping others first if they don't need the caps. Maybe they are trying to do reviews for YouTube, etc, and could get more people interested in the final run. This could improve the economies of scale for ellipse and contribute to the success of the project.

If I am interpreting this correctly, I would still get a low printed serial number, just with final assembly and shipping later - no big deal. I'm sure others feel the same way.

cods

06 Dec 2019, 04:37

I purchased the low serial option as well, and sure, it'd be lovely to get this awesome keyboard(s) as soon as possible, but I'm not going to die in a ditch over it. Send it whenever, it looks like being an amazing bit of kit :D

Ellipse, thanks for running an amazing project so far!

Everyone getting their knickers in a twist about or being entitled, petty, etc, remember that as brilliant as it is, it's a brilliant keyboard, you're unlikely to be harmed by timing, be kind, and calm down.
Image

:lol:

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wobbled

06 Dec 2019, 16:47

An exception for single digit serials sounds fair

robo

06 Dec 2019, 22:36

Sorry if this has already been discussed, and I can see what a massive project this has been already, but I figured I'd ask:

Are there any future plans for different boards, for example a remake of the Model M SSK (perhaps even with the Model-F mechanism inside... best of both worlds)?

John Doe

07 Dec 2019, 04:40

robo wrote:
06 Dec 2019, 22:36
Sorry if this has already been discussed, and I can see what a massive project this has been already, but I figured I'd ask:

Are there any future plans for different boards, for example a remake of the Model M SSK (perhaps even with the Model-F mechanism inside... best of both worlds)?
I hope that could happen someday, and more, Unsaver reproduction will be preferable, I guess.

Wazrach

07 Dec 2019, 18:40

What I really want to know is if the brand new Model F spacebars are going to have that same, deliciously-mechanical thunk sound to them like all original Models F with regular-sized spacebars. I have already asked this, but I'm not sure you understood. :P

Reason I'm asking is because the prototypes from the old demo video don't have that same sound to them as the original F107:

https://youtu.be/KhMzoGcZ9Wo?t=626 vs https://youtu.be/KhMzoGcZ9Wo?t=879

If my F77 spacebar sounds like that F107's, I will be so, so happy!

Ellipse

07 Dec 2019, 19:50

No, sorry, as noted a while back I decided on Model M space bars for the key molds for full compatibility with Model M keyboards. The space bars will not match the old F122 (and other) type space bars.

Wazrach

07 Dec 2019, 20:02

Ellipse wrote:
07 Dec 2019, 19:50
No, sorry, as noted a while back I decided on Model M space bars for the key molds for full compatibility with Model M keyboards. The space bars will not match the old F122 (and other) type space bars.
I know it's a different stabiliser system, but how will this affect the sound? Will it have the same kind of heavy sound to it?

Ellipse

07 Dec 2019, 20:14

The new space bars will sound like Model M space bars (like in the old demo videos). Maybe someone will come up with a mod to change the sound of the space bar in the future.

Wazrach

07 Dec 2019, 20:18

Ellipse wrote:
07 Dec 2019, 20:14
The new space bars will sound like Model M space bars (like in the old demo videos). Maybe someone will come up with a mod to change the sound of the space bar in the future.
That's kind of sad to hear, but I appreciate the information. Honestly one of my favourite features of the Model F is the sound of the spacebar. I'm pretty sure it will still sound really good though, right? I've heard some typing demos of Models F with modded spacebars (converted to Model M spacebars), and they still sound pretty deep and thunky. Would you be able to provide a simple sound demo, or would that be too cheeky to ask? :D

Wazrach

07 Dec 2019, 20:20

Or is the sound going to be the same as the typing demos of the prototypes in the video?

Ellipse

08 Dec 2019, 06:52

Wazrach each new Model F keyboard will sound different, and they will also likely sound different when they are as old as the original Model F's.

But yes I do hope people experiment with their new Model F's and share their mods to tune the sound of their new Model F keyboards to their preferences, even if the factory sound is not 100% to your liking. I have found that using a vice and taking a rubber mallet to adjust the bend/radius of the top inner assembly has a noticeable effect on the clickiness and reverberation of keypresses. I successfully improved some of my original F107s with this method a few years ago.

I have done some brief experimenting with foam (putting foam inside the metal space bar tabs as a cushion and to increase tightness of the space bar, doing the same with different types of tape like electrical and plain clear tape, etc.).

Also I think some people will even remove the inner foam entirely in order to maximize the clickiness and reverberant sounds of the Model F. (This may have drawbacks in terms of more wobbly keys and the possibility of dust interfering with the capacitive sensing). Currently the foam is brand new and undegraded, so it may muffle the sound more than the deteriorating inner foam of an original Model F.

Allow me to quote the project home page for a more general note on Model F sounds: "I have many original Model F keyboards in my collection and each one sounds different. No two sound the same or feel the same when typing! This means that your Brand New Model F Keyboard will likely not sound or feel like your 30 year old Model F or Model M keyboard due to their loosened springs, deteriorating foam, different alloys of metal, etc. New or little-used Model M and Model F springs and keys tend to require a little break in to loosen up the springs and keys. Not all keys will sound perfect or all the same with buckling spring keyboards – some may sound funny but they usually keep on working."

In summary: if you want to, the keyboard will be yours to experiment with and adjust both on the software and on the hardware side to get the best configuration and sound.

John Doe

08 Dec 2019, 10:19

May i ask when the shipping will be arranged?

Wazrach

08 Dec 2019, 13:32

Ellipse wrote:
08 Dec 2019, 06:52
Wazrach each new Model F keyboard will sound different, and they will also likely sound different when they are as old as the original Model F's.

But yes I do hope people experiment with their new Model F's and share their mods to tune the sound of their new Model F keyboards to their preferences, even if the factory sound is not 100% to your liking. I have found that using a vice and taking a rubber mallet to adjust the bend/radius of the top inner assembly has a noticeable effect on the clickiness and reverberation of keypresses. I successfully improved some of my original F107s with this method a few years ago.

I have done some brief experimenting with foam (putting foam inside the metal space bar tabs as a cushion and to increase tightness of the space bar, doing the same with different types of tape like electrical and plain clear tape, etc.).

Also I think some people will even remove the inner foam entirely in order to maximize the clickiness and reverberant sounds of the Model F. (This may have drawbacks in terms of more wobbly keys and the possibility of dust interfering with the capacitive sensing). Currently the foam is brand new and undegraded, so it may muffle the sound more than the deteriorating inner foam of an original Model F.

Allow me to quote the project home page for a more general note on Model F sounds: "I have many original Model F keyboards in my collection and each one sounds different. No two sound the same or feel the same when typing! This means that your Brand New Model F Keyboard will likely not sound or feel like your 30 year old Model F or Model M keyboard due to their loosened springs, deteriorating foam, different alloys of metal, etc. New or little-used Model M and Model F springs and keys tend to require a little break in to loosen up the springs and keys. Not all keys will sound perfect or all the same with buckling spring keyboards – some may sound funny but they usually keep on working."

In summary: if you want to, the keyboard will be yours to experiment with and adjust both on the software and on the hardware side to get the best configuration and sound.
Some interesting points. I will definitely not be modding the F77. I've learned my lesson with modifying stock keyboards - it never goes down well. xD

As for the mallet and vice method, that is new. Never heard of anyone doing that, but I suppose it makes sense. If I ever get back to old Models F, I will have to give that one a go.

I've talked about this before, but I used to have an unusual XT assembly with foam that had completely disintegrated. The center of the assembly was very tight with zero wobble, with just a bit of play in the top and bottom row. The keyboard was very clicky and loud.

You've clearly done a lot of tinkering and you really know what you're talking about. Would you be able to tell me why the original Model F spacebars (F122, Unsaver, 4704s) sound so incredibly deep and metallic when stock? I'd love to get to the bottom of this, but I could never find a logical reason. The only thing I could come up with was perhaps the spacebar hits both of the barrels and the four "posts" hit the metal barrel frame all at the same time, resulting in such a deep and full sound. These posts are different on the Model M spacebar.

Sorry to keep going on about that, I obsess over very specific things! :P

Ellipse

08 Dec 2019, 16:53

Yes I think your theory may be right. Someone should try attaching 4 metal feet to a Model M space bar, and then try with 4 plastic feet. Try with steel and try aluminum.

Wazrach

08 Dec 2019, 20:21

Ellipse wrote:
08 Dec 2019, 16:53
Yes I think your theory may be right. Someone should try attaching 4 metal feet to a Model M space bar, and then try with 4 plastic feet. Try with steel and try aluminum.
If you ever do this, I'd love to hear about the results. I'd be willing to mod my F77 spacebar, or even pay extra to have it modded to achieve this sound before it's shipped.

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tentator

08 Dec 2019, 21:20

Sorry but now you got me too curious : where and what exactly would a mallet and a vice do to a model F curved back plate?? Is there a picture about this? Is the concept about amount of curve the plate has or?

Thanks in advance..

Ellipse

08 Dec 2019, 22:46

Yes correct tentator - adjusting the radius of the top inner assembly curve and how it corresponds to the actual curve of the bottom inner assembly. For example maybe a smaller radius (a more extreme bend) or a larger radius (a slightly flatter top inner assembly curve) might change the sound.

Ellipse

10 Dec 2019, 06:27

Serial numbers have been assigned! Check the attached file. Of course all personal info has been removed - for privacy reasons only the order numbers are included (custom production dates have been noted - no need to reconfirm with me - but I am not including them in the file for privacy reasons). All numbers are subject to change / not guaranteed to match this file.

Important - no serial number changes allowed, even for low serial buyers! The only serial change still allowed is by ordering the low serial add on item (then you can pick any available serial number). I have purposely left many of the lower numbers reserved for the final round low serial project supporters.

As a reminder the order of keyboard shipping will remain single digit serials, early bird tooling/custom and low serials, and all remaining orders. The order within each of these 3 groups is based on order date (earliest first) and parts availability (e.g. orders without printed keys and those ordering unprinted keys and paying for separate shipping of printed keys).

Dye sub update: I finally completed the dye sub control panel last week but had two sensors from the dye sub control panel fail to work (DOA) so I need to double check with some manufacturers of components in the control panel. I have some alternative parts under consideration and hope to resolve it this week.
Attachments
Serial Assignments.xlsx
(50.16 KiB) Downloaded 119 times
Last edited by Ellipse on 10 Dec 2019, 22:34, edited 3 times in total.

Sp33ls

10 Dec 2019, 06:51

Awesome, thanks Ellipse!

One quick Q, are the low serials (with unprinted keys) being shipped out based on the serial value alone, or are certain boards being priotized first? (I.e., All low serial F62, then all low serial F77, then compact F62, etc...)

Can't wait! I've been holding out on my gaming keyboard (cherry speeds that I soldered in) so I'm really looking forward to this as my new primary driver when I'm not gaming :D

Edit: Oh, and from the ones you've tested thus far, how did the first batch seem to turn out?! :)

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Mattr567

10 Dec 2019, 20:07

And I was curious about the very small subset of orders that didn't order any keys at all? Thinking maybe like low serial unprinted then no keys orders than normal unprinted orders or something. The no key orders literally are ready to go as is.

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JP!

10 Dec 2019, 20:20

So does serial #0001 go to someone or is this reserved to it's creator?

Ellipse

10 Dec 2019, 22:40

Serial assignments file is now uploaded above.

Sp33ls and mattr the order is by order date/number, grouped by the above mentioned categories (low serial etc.). Not "All low serial F62, then all low serial F77, then compact F62, etc...)"

Serial 1 is available for compact F62 and compact F77 - the other 1's have sold. https://www.modelfkeyboards.com/product/skip-the-line/

Remaining single digit serials:
Classic Case F77 – SOLD OUT
Classic Case F62 – 4
Compact F77 – 1,5,9
Compact F62 – 1,4,8,9

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Mattr567

Yesterday, 01:42

Ah, so it's by order number for the boards that can ship (aka unprinted or no key orders), thanks for the clarification.

robo

Yesterday, 22:15

Well, i finally took the plunge. F77 industrial grey with HHKB right shift.

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