F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards

User avatar
webwit
Wild Duck

06 Feb 2020, 13:30

kmnov2017 wrote:
06 Feb 2020, 10:28
webwit wrote:
05 Feb 2020, 16:28
:maverick:

f1.jpg

f2.jpg

more later...
How many are those? 10?
Only two, a F62 and a F77. Both then 4 other cases for both, for when I get bored with a color ;)

kmnov2017

06 Feb 2020, 13:40

webwit wrote:
06 Feb 2020, 13:30
kmnov2017 wrote:
06 Feb 2020, 10:28
webwit wrote:
05 Feb 2020, 16:28
:maverick:

f1.jpg

f2.jpg

more later...
How many are those? 10?
Only two, a F62 and a F77. Both then 4 other cases for both, for when I get bored with a color ;)
Waiting to see the pics and your review ...

User avatar
webwit
Wild Duck

06 Feb 2020, 21:01

I'll nitpick in a review later, maybe over the weekend.

But important things first. Ellipse, you know I now want to ask for your hand and bear your children, right? You crazy mad fecker. You did it. Congratulations.

DMA

07 Feb 2020, 02:40

tentator wrote:
06 Feb 2020, 11:03
IMG_20200206_110122.jpg
I asked for "Latest firmware, latest utility"

Latest utility is 1.0.0.SIX

How do I trust that you do what you asked in other cases? Now I remember why previous communication attempts ended so badly.

Goodbye.

Ellipse

07 Feb 2020, 03:15

New blog post:

I just finished the third Model F instructional video: how to fix buzzing springs and non-working keys on your Model F keyboard. Check out the other videos in my channel for additional instructional videos on the Brand New Model F keyboards.

Also a high quality sound comparison of the New Model F Keyboard vs. two original IBM Model F PC XT Keyboards and a Model F 122-key keyboard.

Over 100 Brand New Model F Keyboards have shipped so far! Once I can start mass sublimation I am hoping to pick up the pace significantly. As I asked in my prior blog post I am open to having volunteers help get these keyboards out on a Saturday – so far I’ve gotten some interest but the more the better! Please let me know if you’d like to help in a couple months from now.

As an update I am working on what should be the final fixes to the dye sublimation setup. Progress has been disappointingly slow on this but I think this is the final aspect of the setup that I was missing (I thought of doing it another way but the results were inconsistent).
Sound comparison clip from above video:

User avatar
Elrick

07 Feb 2020, 04:58

Ellipse wrote:
07 Feb 2020, 03:15
New blog post:

I just finished the third Model F instructional video: how to fix buzzing springs and non-working keys on your Model F keyboard.

Over 100 Brand New Model F Keyboards have shipped so far!
So now we are getting "Buzzing" spring keyboards :( ?

No wonder the old style Model F keyboards are still keeping their price and in fact going up on Flebay. Christ, I thought you were going to release something that beats the older gear.

Looks like way too much confidence (on my part) for something that won't even be in the same ball park as those ancient F's. You can never produce an authentic IBM capacitive keyboard, despite all the time and money that's gone into it.

How extremely disappointing :( .

User avatar
zrrion

07 Feb 2020, 05:14

you getting awfully worked up about a single video. chill

User avatar
Elrick

07 Feb 2020, 05:21

zrrion wrote:
07 Feb 2020, 05:14
you getting awfully worked up about a single video. chill
It's ongoing here and he never mentioned that he actually FIXED anything. Instead out goes a video to those whom paid up in full, for a so-called fully functioning keyboard but in fact will never receive it.

I didn't pay that huge amount for me to take it apart and fix his constant mistakes on this F77. Just makes me want my money back after 4 years of this. Sometimes you have to cut it off and finish this once and for all.

Not waiting for another dead-brick to arrive on my doorstep so that my wife can laugh in my face, for supporting another failed purchase for more than four years.

User avatar
zrrion

07 Feb 2020, 05:57

you getting awfully worked up about a single video whatever you're going on about. chill

Twst

07 Feb 2020, 06:43

Great video!
It's very much relevant for the "authentic IBM capacitive keyboard"s aswell. Because they can also buzz...

Ellipse

07 Feb 2020, 06:46

Yes twst that is definitely correct. I have had to replace buzzing and bad springs in many original Model F keyboards.

Sorry if it was not clear but this is the QC process I go through for each new Model F keyboard - it is one reason it takes more time than expected for each one to go out. The factory also goes through this QC process before me on each keyboard and I have asked them to improve on this for the final round.

Everyone's keyboard ships only after I test each key and fix the needed springs.

And again my apologies that orders only started shipping recently. I know it is a long time to wait for anything.

I am getting many emails and PM's from those who are happy with their new Model F keyboards so I would not worry too much - if you like the original Model F you'll like the new ones! For those who have received their new Model F please do post even if you are happy so far with your Model F!

Even IBM had to perform quality control on their Model F keyboards - a 1980s IBM newsletter article posted a year or so ago describes how employees would use a microphone and headphones to listen to the click of a key and fix the keys that don't sound right. You are correct that the Model F requires a higher level of quality control than other mechanical switches and rubber dome keyboards, but it is well worth the effort on my part to get the QC right, for the ability to type on a new Model F as a daily driver keyboard.

I recommend listening to the second video comparing a new Model F after my QC to 3 original Model F keyboards. Having restored dozens of these keyboards over the years I can say that the new Model F performs and sounds on par with many original Model F's.

User avatar
Scarpia

07 Feb 2020, 07:24

Cool typing sound demo Ellipse! I know you’ve mentioned several times over the last few years that you’ve restored lots of Model Fs and they all sound different, but like a lot of people I’ve only ever owned one, so I never really got what you meant until this video — SUPER interesting!

Also I forgot how pingy these things are without a floss mod. Not going to be popular in the shared office! Ringaling meatbags, I’m typing here!!!!

Wazrach

07 Feb 2020, 09:20

That F62 sounds delicious, thanks for sharing that!

User avatar
tentator

07 Feb 2020, 11:25

DMA wrote:
07 Feb 2020, 02:40
tentator wrote:
06 Feb 2020, 11:03
IMG_20200206_110122.jpg
I asked for "Latest firmware, latest utility"

Latest utility is 1.0.0.SIX
relax my friend, usually it's a communication problem, you were focussing on latest trunk of the firmware, but I anyway can tell you that the documentation is having a broken link towards the utility:
https://github.com/dmaone/CommonSense/b ... r/releases
and even when checking here:
https://github.com/dmaone/CommonSense/releases
I still see 1.0.0.5.

So maybe you have to update a couple of things or you can point me towards a link of where the version 1.0.0.6 is and maybe we sort it out?

Also unclear to me: what would a different version of the utility do in the context of the macro? define it better.. so that I should remove the macro and recreate it again with an updated utility?

dad

08 Feb 2020, 20:29

Ellipse wrote:
07 Feb 2020, 06:46
I have had to replace buzzing and bad springs in many original Model F keyboards.
Absolutely true, 30+ year old model F could have some slightly buzzing springs, my AT Model F has 2-3 of these. But...I hope my new F77 (when it arrives) is not supposed to include any :?:
Ellipse wrote:
07 Feb 2020, 06:46
The factory also goes through this QC process before me on each keyboard and I have asked them to improve on this for the final round.
And what about the final round of production - when it's expected to be finished?

Ellipse

08 Feb 2020, 20:42

Not sure yet on the final round but I have also asked the factory to re-check the remaining keyboards of the early bird round, expected to ship in a couple months.

User avatar
AlpsComeback

09 Feb 2020, 22:53

Hey Ellipse, I just wanted to say I really appreciate this whole project. I first heard about it back when I got into the hobby, and always wanted one, but the cost, while being fair, was too high for me. Fortunately, I received one as a graduation gift! While the fact that we once again have new capacitive buckling springs is really amazing, I think this project has made an impact on the entire mechanical keyboard market, since efforts are being made to re-create other vintage switches, and other companies are innovating more than before.
I have only tried capacitive buckling springs once in a museum, but I do have a Model M, and it's my favorite board I own (of 11). I'm really looking forward to owning this keyboard, especially with the positive feedback we've heard so far. Thank you for bringing these amazing keyboards back to life!

daphnis

10 Feb 2020, 00:41

I can't compile the controller software according to the
instructions, but get

Code: Select all

  % make
  		compiling src/ColSkips.cpp
  		In file included from /usr/include/c++/9.2.0/bits/stl_algo.h:59,
  						from /usr/include/c++/9.2.0/algorithm:62,
  						from /usr/include/qt/QtCore/qglobal.h:142,
  						from /usr/include/qt/QtGui/qtguiglobal.h:43,
  						from /usr/include/qt/QtWidgets/qtwidgetsglobal.h:43,
  						from /usr/include/qt/QtWidgets/qcheckbox.h:43,
  						from /usr/include/qt/QtWidgets/QCheckBox:1,
  						from src/ColSkips.h:20,
  						from src/ColSkips.cpp:17:
  		/usr/include/c++/9.2.0/cstdlib:75:15: fatal error: stdlib.h: No such file or directory
  		75 | #include_next <stdlib.h>
  		|               ^~~~~~~~~~
  		compilation terminated.
  		make: *** [Makefile:1059: .build/ColSkips.o] Error 1
Does anyone know what to do? This is on Arch Linux.

daijoubu

10 Feb 2020, 02:07

Received some caps from Unicomp. Sadly they don't print the arrow legends on the blue caps.
20200208_100340.jpg
20200208_100340.jpg (495.05 KiB) Viewed 922 times
I've also tried converting the spacebar to the shorter type to gain an additional key and move the Fn key next to the spacebar, however I think I've ordered either the wrong space bar or the wrong keycap. Still trying to figure this out. I ordered a 1.25u keycap and a 104 new classic spacebar. From what I can see, I think the extra key should be a 1.5u key, and the spacebar should be slightly shorter. Right now the 1.25u doesn't move smoothly as when pressed it interferes with the stabilizer wire under the spacebar then gets stuck.
20200209_012953.jpg
20200209_012953.jpg (346.36 KiB) Viewed 922 times

User avatar
tentator

10 Feb 2020, 08:22

You could try redoing the space bar stab wire to make it bend really tight so it does not come out.. i hat to do it on mine.. but yeah it looks a bit tight there..

Btw are those nice blue keys dual role? (i.e. shift when hold and up when tapped) cause i'm trying to do the same..

Ellipse

10 Feb 2020, 15:37

Thanks AlpsComeback for the kind words!

daijoubu it is a tight fit for the smaller space bar but I was able to get the smaller space bar and a 1.5U key working with the JIS keyboard in the photo I posted before. It did not press the space bar wire when the 1.5U key was pressed. I used my new smaller space bar key and have not tested it with Unicomp's smaller space bars. Unfortunately I don't have any available in pearl at the moment but should have more later this year.

TheLagMaker

10 Feb 2020, 22:06

daphnis wrote:
10 Feb 2020, 00:41
I can't compile the controller software according to the
instructions, but get

Code: Select all

  % make
  		compiling src/ColSkips.cpp
  		In file included from /usr/include/c++/9.2.0/bits/stl_algo.h:59,
  						from /usr/include/c++/9.2.0/algorithm:62,
  						from /usr/include/qt/QtCore/qglobal.h:142,
  						from /usr/include/qt/QtGui/qtguiglobal.h:43,
  						from /usr/include/qt/QtWidgets/qtwidgetsglobal.h:43,
  						from /usr/include/qt/QtWidgets/qcheckbox.h:43,
  						from /usr/include/qt/QtWidgets/QCheckBox:1,
  						from src/ColSkips.h:20,
  						from src/ColSkips.cpp:17:
  		/usr/include/c++/9.2.0/cstdlib:75:15: fatal error: stdlib.h: No such file or directory
  		75 | #include_next <stdlib.h>
  		|               ^~~~~~~~~~
  		compilation terminated.
  		make: *** [Makefile:1059: .build/ColSkips.o] Error 1
Does anyone know what to do? This is on Arch Linux.
Hi,

Did you use your package manager or did you try to compile manually? if manually, did you make sure you:

1. use the right version of qmake/qt?

2. have a patched ibm-capsense-usb_0.9.0/src/util/ibm-capsense-usb-util.pro in your source tree?

I am not an Arch linux user, but I think that If you used your package manager, and everything is up-to-date, you should perhaps contact the maintainer of this package.

I'm on Debian Buster, and compiled sucessfully by applying the Arch linux patch.

User avatar
inyourgroove

10 Feb 2020, 22:32

daphnis wrote:
10 Feb 2020, 00:41
Does anyone know what to do? This is on Arch Linux.
I haven't tried it yet but there is an AUR package for the QT based util.

EDIT: Package seems to compile fine, can't test it as I lack a keyboard.
Last edited by inyourgroove on 11 Feb 2020, 09:41, edited 2 times in total.

clickclack

10 Feb 2020, 22:54

daphnis, I had the same problem and dropped the /usr/include from INCLUDEPATH on line 27 of ibm-capsense-usb-util.pro.
The section of the file looks like this (now):

Code: Select all

unix:!macx {
    LIBS += -lhidapi-libusb
    INCLUDEPATH += \
        /usr/include/hidapi
}
I'm on Fedora 31 with Qt5.

Actually, I tried building this version of the package (which seems newer, I've no idea what's "official"):

https://github.com/sethbc/xwhatsit-capsense-controller

There seems to be a bug with the 0.6 when it comes to viewing the key settings on Layer 1. Half the layer is always missing even when the tool shows key bindings. Seems to be fixed in the above repo.

I had no luck with either version when it came to loading/saving layouts. I think there's a problem with launching modal dialogue boxes (maybe because I'm using Wayland). I bodged in an environment variable to set a filename to load/save.

daijoubu

11 Feb 2020, 02:19

tentator wrote:
10 Feb 2020, 08:22
You could try redoing the space bar stab wire to make it bend really tight so it does not come out.. i hat to do it on mine.. but yeah it looks a bit tight there..

Btw are those nice blue keys dual role? (i.e. shift when hold and up when tapped) cause i'm trying to do the same..
Those keys are single row, I map them as arrow cluster on base layer, and with Fn it is Home/End/PgUp/PgDn. I don't usually use right Shift so I can live with this setup.
Ellipse wrote:
10 Feb 2020, 15:37
Thanks AlpsComeback for the kind words!

daijoubu it is a tight fit for the smaller space bar but I was able to get the smaller space bar and a 1.5U key working with the JIS keyboard in the photo I posted before. It did not press the space bar wire when the 1.5U key was pressed. I used my new smaller space bar key and have not tested it with Unicomp's smaller space bars. Unfortunately I don't have any available in pearl at the moment but should have more later this year.
That is good to hear, is that shorter spacebar developed by yourself? What is the length of the spacebar at the bottom and the top?
And what colour does that spacebar come with now?

An alternative solution is to cut off the stems of the 1.25u keycap and glue another stem with a slight offset so that the 1.25u cap centers into that space. Not sure whether this will work out but I may give it a go when I have the time.

Twst

11 Feb 2020, 07:16

daphnis wrote:
10 Feb 2020, 00:41
I can't compile the controller software according to the
instructions, but get

Code: Select all

  % make
  		compiling src/ColSkips.cpp
  		In file included from /usr/include/c++/9.2.0/bits/stl_algo.h:59,
  						from /usr/include/c++/9.2.0/algorithm:62,
  						from /usr/include/qt/QtCore/qglobal.h:142,
  						from /usr/include/qt/QtGui/qtguiglobal.h:43,
  						from /usr/include/qt/QtWidgets/qtwidgetsglobal.h:43,
  						from /usr/include/qt/QtWidgets/qcheckbox.h:43,
  						from /usr/include/qt/QtWidgets/QCheckBox:1,
  						from src/ColSkips.h:20,
  						from src/ColSkips.cpp:17:
  		/usr/include/c++/9.2.0/cstdlib:75:15: fatal error: stdlib.h: No such file or directory
  		75 | #include_next <stdlib.h>
  		|               ^~~~~~~~~~
  		compilation terminated.
  		make: *** [Makefile:1059: .build/ColSkips.o] Error 1
Does anyone know what to do? This is on Arch Linux.
Beeing on Arch-based Linux, you could/(should?) try to compile the controller software via AUR;
https://aur.archlinux.org/packages/ibm_ ... _usb_util/

Pacman should then take care of missing packages ;)

TheLagMaker

11 Feb 2020, 16:05

I received my 2 F62s "classic" almost 2 week ago, with my aid kits and
supplementary keycaps. It happened faster than I expected.

I am typing on one of my brand new model Fs right now.

The package had suffered a blow, but fortunately, it was the box
containing the keycaps that took most of the (rather light)
damage. One of the keyboard cardboard boxes is scratched, 2 keycaps
were dislodged, and that's it. The packaging did its protecting job
very well. This is not the first time that I order a keyboard from
outside of Europe, so the custom fees were not a surprise, and what I
paid was more or less what I expected.

Keyboard programming:

I used the xwhatsit ibm capsense GUI interface. Once compiled,
everything went fine and the whole process of configuring the firmware
is copiously documented. I just relocated some keys on the base layer
and layer 1.

*Note to linux users*: Ellipse has provided a binary version of the
program for linux. If you prefer to compile yourself, you can do so
without having to resort to an old version of gcc. The program is
included in Arch linux and I compiled the software on my Debian Buster
with a patch taken from the ibm capsense Arch linux package build,
after having installed the qt5-make and qt5-default packages. I used
both methods (Ellipse's binary and home-compiled one) with success.

As for the keyboards themselves:

I saw the same small defects on the cases Khers talked about earlier
in this thread: a sort of vertical, slightly sunken line on the right
side of the upper case. It begins above the pencil rail, is
interrupted by the alphanumeric gap, and ends even more slightly below
the right Ctrl key; it is below the paint. It is more visible on a
black case:

f62_black_lighted.jpg
f62_black_lighted.jpg (2.67 MiB) Viewed 351 times

You have to look attentively in a well lit room, and get the right
view angle to notice it.

f62_black.jpg
f62_black.jpg (606.98 KiB) Viewed 351 times

Since I do not look at a keyboard when I type and was focused on what
my fingers were telling me, I didn't even notice them
immediately. Again, it is not something that jumps at your face,
unless you actively look for it.

One of my keyboards is beige and yes, it is a bit darker than the
standard ibm beige. I ordered it with black keycaps, and I'm pretty
satisfied with the combination. It has already become my main
keyboard.

f62_beige.jpg
f62_beige.jpg (458.28 KiB) Viewed 351 times

Please note that the color is a more pronounced beige IRL.

About the typing experience:

I already own model Ms from various eras, and F XTs. I've been typing
exclusively on an XT bought NIB for a whole year until now, and was
aware of the importance of the keyboard as a whole, and not only the
switches and keycaps. Well, I realize I was not *that* aware,
actually.

I am still pleasantly surprised at the lightness of the touch combined
with the crispness of the tactile response. My XT floss modded keys
seem almost stiff by comparison. The sounds of the clicks themselves
are very reminiscent of those made by marbles bouncing gently against
each other.

Even the "pings" typical of a buckling spring mechanism are different
here, partly because the keyboards are brand new (the pings are more
discrete), but also because of the keyboards metallic cases. The
metallic upper case seems to add resonance to the sounds, without
making them louder. What you get when typing and taking speed is a
blend of clicks, and, in the background, of sounds made by the springs
against the barrels, and the occasionnal *THOK* of the space bar. The
global sound seems "richer", more diverse, but not louder than the
sound produced by a floss-modded one.

When I type, I don't notice wide gaps between notes like I did with
my other F/Ms; I like that idea that a model F/M can be
in-tune/out-of-tune like a piano. The keyboard seems almost
"monotonic", and that makes those pings less intrusive, less
distracting, to the point that I gave up on floss modding them. Floss
modding gets you rid of pings, but slightly blunts the tactile
response. So I get the perfect, unadulterated tactile response and
pings I can live with. We'll see later if my neighbors think the same.

Conclusion:

For me, a great keyboard = great tactile response + audible feedback
that matches it + durability. By "durability", I mean not only
robustness but also a keyboard's capacity to maintain its tactile
response through time. Model Fs in general excell at matching those
criteria, and those 2 keyboards in particular are the best I have ever
used. Ellipse, I must thank you and applaud you for all your work and
persistence. I just entered this GB about a year ago, but I tell this
to the people still waiting: those keyboards are worth it. They not
only met my expectations, but went beyond. Whatever keyboard I
may lay my hands on in the future will have to measure up to them.

Oh, and the vintage-looking invoice is cute. That's the first time I
find an invoice cute.

User avatar
webwit
Wild Duck

11 Feb 2020, 18:15

I saw the same small defects on the cases Khers talked about earlier
in this thread: a sort of vertical, slightly sunken line on the right
side of the upper case. It begins above the pencil rail, is
I have both the F62 and F77 plus some spare cases for both, and they all hey the same artifact. It is also present on the inside of the bottom part of the case. The slight imperfection on the pen holder of the F62 to the right of the line is better on the F77.

I'm no expert on moulds and related technology to create a case, so maybe someone with better knowledge can correct this, but to me it seems like the left side of both keyboards, up to the line, use the same mould, and then there are two different right sides. Like they reused the left part and there are three mould parts, probably to save costs or maybe a width limitation of a machine.

TheLagMaker

11 Feb 2020, 19:28

webwit wrote:
11 Feb 2020, 18:15
I saw the same small defects on the cases Khers talked about earlier
in this thread: a sort of vertical, slightly sunken line on the right
side of the upper case. It begins above the pencil rail, is
I have both the F62 and F77 plus some spare cases for both, and they all hey the same artifact. It is also present on the inside of the bottom part of the case. The slight imperfection on the pen holder of the F62 to the right of the line is better on the F77.

I'm no expert on moulds and related technology to create a case, so maybe someone with better knowledge can correct this, but to me it seems like the left side of both keyboards, up to the line, use the same mould, and then there are two different right sides. Like they reused the left part and there are three mould parts, probably to save costs or maybe a width limitation of a machine.
Fortunately, those details have no impact over what makes those keyboards such great typing tools. I imagine collectors 50 years from now: "omg, a kishsaver from the 20's! with First Round Marks!"

Edit: I am thinking about ordering a third keyboard, beige again. I came to like that shade of beige. I know I don't really need it, but those things are a bit like peanuts: you can't just have one (or two).

daphnis

11 Feb 2020, 20:10

Thanks for your suggestions. I was able to build the AUR package, but all that happens when I run `ibm_capsense_usb_util` is a dialogue box pops up saying `error: couldn't open device`.

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