F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards

Twst

11 Feb 2020, 20:14

daphnis wrote:
11 Feb 2020, 20:10
Thanks for your suggestions. I was able to build the AUR package, but all that happens when I run `ibm_capsense_usb_util` is a dialogue box pops up saying `error: couldn't open device`.
Have you tried running is as root?
You might need to look at the permissions to your keyboard :roll:

TheLagMaker

11 Feb 2020, 20:24

daphnis wrote:
11 Feb 2020, 20:10
Thanks for your suggestions. I was able to build the AUR package, but all that happens when I run `ibm_capsense_usb_util` is a dialogue box pops up saying `error: couldn't open device`.
You also need to ensure that your AUR package rules files for UDEV has been correctly installed where it should (on my debian box: /etc/udev/rules.d/). This file is named:

82-ibm-capsense-usb.rules.

If it is in place (your package manager is supposed to have taken care of that), you have to load this new rule with:

Code: Select all

udevadm control --reload-rules

Ellipse

11 Feb 2020, 22:54

Thanks TheLagMaker for your detailed review and notes on the xwhatsit Linux configuration.

I have asked the factory to look into the issue of the lines on some of the cases.

webwit is correct that the molds were designed so that the F62 and F77 molds could be shared. The molds used in this project cost more than a luxury car (!) so we have to save on costs where possible.

I hope they can remove this line for the final round in the secondary/finishing operations before powdercoating.

Below I am re-posting some photos from 2016 of the creation of the die cast case molds.

Regarding the beige color, having examined and restored dozens of original Model F keyboards over the years I have found that different runs of Model F keyboards have slightly different beige colors (including the early powdercoated plastic F122 cases). The beige color I approved is close to one of my original F77 keyboards (as shown in the home page of the project web site with the caption "can you guess which one is the original and which is the reproduction?").

I would say that the off-white/beige finish is my favorite of all the Model F color options!
die cast zinc case mold production first stage (1).jpg
die cast zinc case mold production first stage (1).jpg (109.57 KiB) Viewed 1620 times
die cast zinc case mold production first stage (2).jpg
die cast zinc case mold production first stage (2).jpg (159.46 KiB) Viewed 1620 times
die cast zinc case mold production first stage (3).jpg
die cast zinc case mold production first stage (3).jpg (100.61 KiB) Viewed 1620 times
die cast zinc case mold production first stage (4).jpg
die cast zinc case mold production first stage (4).jpg (174.45 KiB) Viewed 1620 times
20170522_205720 - Copy.jpg
20170522_205720 - Copy.jpg (287.35 KiB) Viewed 1620 times

User avatar
webwit
Wild Duck

12 Feb 2020, 00:12

Ellipse wrote:
11 Feb 2020, 22:54
`webwit is correct that the molds were designed so that the F62 and F77 molds could be shared. The molds used in this project cost more than a luxury car (!) so we have to save on costs where possible.
So considering the case first of all I'm impressed how close this is to the original. Colors are spot on. Structure of paint is very close, only slightly different but not in a bad way. Btw your F62 is even heavier than the original! All in all this is more than I ever wished for. Considering the mold line.. hmm, the inside doesn't matter, and the outside artifact is only on a small area and visible only in certain light/angle... but I guess the fix would be the paint? If only the paint or first layer would fill the line, it would be invisible.

Lagomorph

13 Feb 2020, 00:46

Thanks for your detailed review, TheLagMaker. I enjoyed reading it.

daijoubu

13 Feb 2020, 02:11

Those are insert lines from the zinc casting process, and if the insert lines are protruding out of the surface (positive emboss) can be removed with additional buffing/grinding process but needs to be done carefully so as to not create more imperfections (irregular buffing marks) that will show up after powder coating. Another way is to post-process it using a CNC machine, that will be more precise but at added cost.

It isn't surprising to know that they are sharing inserts in order to save on the mold. Molds do really cost an astronomical amount of money. I know because I work in the industry (but aluminum instead).

dad

13 Feb 2020, 08:46

Ellipse wrote:
11 Feb 2020, 22:54
...
I hope they can remove this line for the final round in the secondary/finishing operations before powdercoating.
...
What about the 2nd ("the early bird"?) round - the cases are already in production and will not be fixed?

BTW why you removed the number of orders from your site - the last I remember was about 1070 for F77.

TheLagMaker

13 Feb 2020, 13:27

Lagomorph wrote:
13 Feb 2020, 00:46
Thanks for your detailed review, TheLagMaker. I enjoyed reading it.
Thanks, Lagomorph. I probably made it a bit too long, part of it because I particularly enjoy typing those days :D .
Last edited by TheLagMaker on 13 Feb 2020, 13:46, edited 1 time in total.

TheLagMaker

13 Feb 2020, 13:45

Ellipse wrote:
11 Feb 2020, 22:54
Thanks TheLagMaker for your detailed review and notes on the xwhatsit Linux configuration.

I have asked the factory to look into the issue of the lines on some of the cases.

webwit is correct that the molds were designed so that the F62 and F77 molds could be shared. The molds used in this project cost more than a luxury car (!) so we have to save on costs where possible.

I hope they can remove this line for the final round in the secondary/finishing operations before powdercoating.
Good to know. I think I will be there for the second round.

Regarding the beige color, having examined and restored dozens of original Model F keyboards over the years I have found that different runs of Model F keyboards have slightly different beige colors (including the early powdercoated plastic F122 cases). The beige color I approved is close to one of my original F77 keyboards (as shown in the home page of the project web site with the caption "can you guess which one is the original and which is the reproduction?").
Thank you for clarifying it. I thought I had hunted down everything "brand-new related" on your site, but obviously missed on this. I am in the process of writing an even more longer review in a french speaking forum. I will take this into account, and link to the photo.
I would say that the off-white/beige finish is my favorite of all the Model F color options!
I fully second that !

daphnis

13 Feb 2020, 17:00

TheLagMaker wrote:
11 Feb 2020, 20:24
You also need to ensure that your AUR package rules files for UDEV has been correctly installed where it should (on my debian box: /etc/udev/rules.d/). This file is named:

82-ibm-capsense-usb.rules.
I have that directory but no such file, so that may be the problem.

TheLagMaker

13 Feb 2020, 20:38

daphnis wrote:
13 Feb 2020, 17:00
TheLagMaker wrote:
11 Feb 2020, 20:24
You also need to ensure that your AUR package rules files for UDEV has been correctly installed where it should (on my debian box: /etc/udev/rules.d/). This file is named:

82-ibm-capsense-usb.rules.
I have that directory but no such file, so that may be the problem.
/etc/udev/rules.d/ is the standard in Debian, this may not be the case in other distros. I have the PKGBUILD file of the AUR under my nose. Have a look in /usr/lib/udev/rules.d/ : you should find it there. Then reload udev with the command I suggested you previously. If you still cannot access your device, try copying

/usr/lib/udev/rules.d/82-ibm-capsense-usb.rules

to

/etc/udev/rules.d/

and reload.

PRIPARA_PLAYER

17 Feb 2020, 17:12

Regarding the previous discussion about shorter space bars, I picked up some from unicomp, and the old space bar is slightly shorter than the new one. Perhaps this would fix the issue with the 1.25 width key.

Unfortunately I don't have my F77 yet to test it with. My main keyboard at the moment is a JIS unicomp, and that seems to have the new space bar and a 1.25 key.

Here are some photos showing the space bars compared to each other, as well as my Unicomp JIS.
Attachments
Old space
Old space
IMG_20200218_010731__01.jpg (4.82 MiB) Viewed 651 times
New space
New space
IMG_20200218_010708__01.jpg (3.08 MiB) Viewed 651 times
Both spaces
Both spaces
IMG_20200218_010655_01.jpg (2.56 MiB) Viewed 651 times

User avatar
wcass

18 Feb 2020, 01:26

So, "old" is slightly smaller than "new". Do you have a caliper?
Perhaps "old" is 5.5u (104.5 mm nominal) and "new" is 5.75u (109.25 mm)?
I am not sure which one i have, but it measures 104.8

daijoubu

18 Feb 2020, 02:57

Thanks for sharing pictures PRIPARA_PLAYER! I bought the new one and I suspect that I should be getting the old one.

wcass, it would make sense if the old is 5.5u, so that the other key would be a 1.5u instead of a 1.25u.

At what point did you measure the spacebar? At the bottom length?

User avatar
wcass

18 Feb 2020, 20:57

daijoubu wrote:
18 Feb 2020, 02:57
wcass, it would make sense if the old is 5.5u, so that the other key would be a 1.5u instead of a 1.25u.

At what point did you measure the spacebar? At the bottom length?
Yes, flat across the base of the cap.

daijoubu

Yesterday, 05:07

wcass wrote:
18 Feb 2020, 20:57
daijoubu wrote:
18 Feb 2020, 02:57
wcass, it would make sense if the old is 5.5u, so that the other key would be a 1.5u instead of a 1.25u.

At what point did you measure the spacebar? At the bottom length?
Yes, flat across the base of the cap.
Thanks! And that smaller space corresponds to the Small - Pre 7/2013 space bar from Unicomp?

Ellipse

Today, 20:32

One of the first video reviews has been posted on YouTube - here's the link.

For this reviewer, Joc's updated firmware with the alternative debounce threshold 11 was optimal while debounce 6 had some issues with pressed keys. The F62 was connected to a 2016 Dell laptop for this test. I don't know the reason for the need to use threshold 6 vs. 11 but my guess is that the capacitive sensing is more sensitive to minute differences in voltage output or USB power management and that affects a small, but significant, percentage of xwhatsit controller users based on the connected equipment. If anyone has more details on this please do share!

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