F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards

User avatar
Twst

11 Feb 2020, 20:14

daphnis wrote:
11 Feb 2020, 20:10
Thanks for your suggestions. I was able to build the AUR package, but all that happens when I run `ibm_capsense_usb_util` is a dialogue box pops up saying `error: couldn't open device`.
Have you tried running is as root?
You might need to look at the permissions to your keyboard :roll:

TheLagMaker

11 Feb 2020, 20:24

daphnis wrote:
11 Feb 2020, 20:10
Thanks for your suggestions. I was able to build the AUR package, but all that happens when I run `ibm_capsense_usb_util` is a dialogue box pops up saying `error: couldn't open device`.
You also need to ensure that your AUR package rules files for UDEV has been correctly installed where it should (on my debian box: /etc/udev/rules.d/). This file is named:

82-ibm-capsense-usb.rules.

If it is in place (your package manager is supposed to have taken care of that), you have to load this new rule with:

Code: Select all

udevadm control --reload-rules

Ellipse

11 Feb 2020, 22:54

Thanks TheLagMaker for your detailed review and notes on the xwhatsit Linux configuration.

I have asked the factory to look into the issue of the lines on some of the cases.

webwit is correct that the molds were designed so that the F62 and F77 molds could be shared. The molds used in this project cost more than a luxury car (!) so we have to save on costs where possible.

I hope they can remove this line for the final round in the secondary/finishing operations before powdercoating.

Below I am re-posting some photos from 2016 of the creation of the die cast case molds.

Regarding the beige color, having examined and restored dozens of original Model F keyboards over the years I have found that different runs of Model F keyboards have slightly different beige colors (including the early powdercoated plastic F122 cases). The beige color I approved is close to one of my original F77 keyboards (as shown in the home page of the project web site with the caption "can you guess which one is the original and which is the reproduction?").

I would say that the off-white/beige finish is my favorite of all the Model F color options!
die cast zinc case mold production first stage (1).jpg
die cast zinc case mold production first stage (1).jpg (109.57 KiB) Viewed 5074 times
die cast zinc case mold production first stage (2).jpg
die cast zinc case mold production first stage (2).jpg (159.46 KiB) Viewed 5074 times
die cast zinc case mold production first stage (3).jpg
die cast zinc case mold production first stage (3).jpg (100.61 KiB) Viewed 5074 times
die cast zinc case mold production first stage (4).jpg
die cast zinc case mold production first stage (4).jpg (174.45 KiB) Viewed 5074 times
20170522_205720 - Copy.jpg
20170522_205720 - Copy.jpg (287.35 KiB) Viewed 5074 times

User avatar
webwit
Wild Duck

12 Feb 2020, 00:12

Ellipse wrote:
11 Feb 2020, 22:54
`webwit is correct that the molds were designed so that the F62 and F77 molds could be shared. The molds used in this project cost more than a luxury car (!) so we have to save on costs where possible.
So considering the case first of all I'm impressed how close this is to the original. Colors are spot on. Structure of paint is very close, only slightly different but not in a bad way. Btw your F62 is even heavier than the original! All in all this is more than I ever wished for. Considering the mold line.. hmm, the inside doesn't matter, and the outside artifact is only on a small area and visible only in certain light/angle... but I guess the fix would be the paint? If only the paint or first layer would fill the line, it would be invisible.

Lagomorph

13 Feb 2020, 00:46

Thanks for your detailed review, TheLagMaker. I enjoyed reading it.

daijoubu

13 Feb 2020, 02:11

Those are insert lines from the zinc casting process, and if the insert lines are protruding out of the surface (positive emboss) can be removed with additional buffing/grinding process but needs to be done carefully so as to not create more imperfections (irregular buffing marks) that will show up after powder coating. Another way is to post-process it using a CNC machine, that will be more precise but at added cost.

It isn't surprising to know that they are sharing inserts in order to save on the mold. Molds do really cost an astronomical amount of money. I know because I work in the industry (but aluminum instead).

dad

13 Feb 2020, 08:46

Ellipse wrote:
11 Feb 2020, 22:54
...
I hope they can remove this line for the final round in the secondary/finishing operations before powdercoating.
...
What about the 2nd ("the early bird"?) round - the cases are already in production and will not be fixed?

BTW why you removed the number of orders from your site - the last I remember was about 1070 for F77.

TheLagMaker

13 Feb 2020, 13:27

Lagomorph wrote:
13 Feb 2020, 00:46
Thanks for your detailed review, TheLagMaker. I enjoyed reading it.
Thanks, Lagomorph. I probably made it a bit too long, part of it because I particularly enjoy typing those days :D .
Last edited by TheLagMaker on 13 Feb 2020, 13:46, edited 1 time in total.

TheLagMaker

13 Feb 2020, 13:45

Ellipse wrote:
11 Feb 2020, 22:54
Thanks TheLagMaker for your detailed review and notes on the xwhatsit Linux configuration.

I have asked the factory to look into the issue of the lines on some of the cases.

webwit is correct that the molds were designed so that the F62 and F77 molds could be shared. The molds used in this project cost more than a luxury car (!) so we have to save on costs where possible.

I hope they can remove this line for the final round in the secondary/finishing operations before powdercoating.
Good to know. I think I will be there for the second round.

Regarding the beige color, having examined and restored dozens of original Model F keyboards over the years I have found that different runs of Model F keyboards have slightly different beige colors (including the early powdercoated plastic F122 cases). The beige color I approved is close to one of my original F77 keyboards (as shown in the home page of the project web site with the caption "can you guess which one is the original and which is the reproduction?").
Thank you for clarifying it. I thought I had hunted down everything "brand-new related" on your site, but obviously missed on this. I am in the process of writing an even more longer review in a french speaking forum. I will take this into account, and link to the photo.
I would say that the off-white/beige finish is my favorite of all the Model F color options!
I fully second that !

daphnis

13 Feb 2020, 17:00

TheLagMaker wrote:
11 Feb 2020, 20:24
You also need to ensure that your AUR package rules files for UDEV has been correctly installed where it should (on my debian box: /etc/udev/rules.d/). This file is named:

82-ibm-capsense-usb.rules.
I have that directory but no such file, so that may be the problem.

TheLagMaker

13 Feb 2020, 20:38

daphnis wrote:
13 Feb 2020, 17:00
TheLagMaker wrote:
11 Feb 2020, 20:24
You also need to ensure that your AUR package rules files for UDEV has been correctly installed where it should (on my debian box: /etc/udev/rules.d/). This file is named:

82-ibm-capsense-usb.rules.
I have that directory but no such file, so that may be the problem.
/etc/udev/rules.d/ is the standard in Debian, this may not be the case in other distros. I have the PKGBUILD file of the AUR under my nose. Have a look in /usr/lib/udev/rules.d/ : you should find it there. Then reload udev with the command I suggested you previously. If you still cannot access your device, try copying

/usr/lib/udev/rules.d/82-ibm-capsense-usb.rules

to

/etc/udev/rules.d/

and reload.

PRIPARA_PLAYER

17 Feb 2020, 17:12

Regarding the previous discussion about shorter space bars, I picked up some from unicomp, and the old space bar is slightly shorter than the new one. Perhaps this would fix the issue with the 1.25 width key.

Unfortunately I don't have my F77 yet to test it with. My main keyboard at the moment is a JIS unicomp, and that seems to have the new space bar and a 1.25 key.

Here are some photos showing the space bars compared to each other, as well as my Unicomp JIS.
Attachments
Old space
Old space
IMG_20200218_010731__01.jpg (4.82 MiB) Viewed 4109 times
New space
New space
IMG_20200218_010708__01.jpg (3.08 MiB) Viewed 4109 times
Both spaces
Both spaces
IMG_20200218_010655_01.jpg (2.56 MiB) Viewed 4109 times

User avatar
wcass

18 Feb 2020, 01:26

So, "old" is slightly smaller than "new". Do you have a caliper?
Perhaps "old" is 5.5u (104.5 mm nominal) and "new" is 5.75u (109.25 mm)?
I am not sure which one i have, but it measures 104.8

daijoubu

18 Feb 2020, 02:57

Thanks for sharing pictures PRIPARA_PLAYER! I bought the new one and I suspect that I should be getting the old one.

wcass, it would make sense if the old is 5.5u, so that the other key would be a 1.5u instead of a 1.25u.

At what point did you measure the spacebar? At the bottom length?

User avatar
wcass

18 Feb 2020, 20:57

daijoubu wrote:
18 Feb 2020, 02:57
wcass, it would make sense if the old is 5.5u, so that the other key would be a 1.5u instead of a 1.25u.

At what point did you measure the spacebar? At the bottom length?
Yes, flat across the base of the cap.

daijoubu

19 Feb 2020, 05:07

wcass wrote:
18 Feb 2020, 20:57
daijoubu wrote:
18 Feb 2020, 02:57
wcass, it would make sense if the old is 5.5u, so that the other key would be a 1.5u instead of a 1.25u.

At what point did you measure the spacebar? At the bottom length?
Yes, flat across the base of the cap.
Thanks! And that smaller space corresponds to the Small - Pre 7/2013 space bar from Unicomp?

Ellipse

20 Feb 2020, 20:32

One of the first video reviews has been posted on YouTube - here's the link.

For this reviewer, Joc's updated firmware with the alternative debounce threshold 11 was optimal while debounce 6 had some issues with pressed keys. The F62 was connected to a 2016 Dell laptop for this test. I don't know the reason for the need to use threshold 6 vs. 11 but my guess is that the capacitive sensing is more sensitive to minute differences in voltage output or USB power management and that affects a small, but significant, percentage of xwhatsit controller users based on the connected equipment. If anyone has more details on this please do share!

PRIPARA_PLAYER

27 Feb 2020, 00:58

I don't have a caliper, but using a tape measure seemed to agree with those numbers. ~105 for Pre 7/2013 and ~109 for Post 7/2013.

User avatar
Mattr567

27 Feb 2020, 02:52

Finally got a proper spacebar for my F77, after a month of using a beat up old M bar with a missing wire.

Image

But annoyed to discover that the period key makes contact with the stab wire and makes the spacebar vibrate. Luckily it doesn't trigger the spacebar but I wonder if this is happening to anyone else.

dotcom

27 Feb 2020, 04:56

The spacebar vibration was happening with my new F77 as well. I was able to resolve it by applying a single layer of electrical tape around the spacebar stabilizer in the areas where it rests against the tabs.
Last edited by dotcom on 28 Feb 2020, 03:31, edited 1 time in total.

Ellipse

27 Feb 2020, 06:17

Mattr did you install the space bar inside the space bar tabs? Or is it resting on top? Sometimes by mistake the space bar does not "catch" inside one or both of the metal tabs and it is difficult to see after the keys have been installed.

The space bar wire should not be in contact with any key. I have found that sometimes the wire needs small bending adjustments for some keyboards to optimize performance - this can change the ease and sound of pressing the space bar. Too much change can cause it to become stuck though.
correct space bar.jpg
correct space bar.jpg (622 KiB) Viewed 2636 times

User avatar
Mattr567

27 Feb 2020, 23:18

Ellipse wrote:
27 Feb 2020, 06:17
Mattr did you install the space bar inside the space bar tabs? Or is it resting on top? Sometimes by mistake the space bar does not "catch" inside one or both of the metal tabs and it is difficult to see after the keys have been installed.

The space bar wire should not be in contact with any key. I have found that sometimes the wire needs small bending adjustments for some keyboards to optimize performance - this can change the ease and sound of pressing the space bar. Too much change can cause it to become stuck though.

correct space bar.jpg
Yeah I did, fully seated in the tabs but that key hit ever so slightly. I actually solved it by stuffing some notebook paper into the tabs which gave the key clearance, while also getting rid of the spacebar rattle. Now it feels great, even though one could call it a bodge fix. It's probably just a slight issue with tolerances with my unit.

Image

jasburbak

28 Feb 2020, 13:06

Since I was one of the early receivers of the Model F Keyboard, I thought I'd add my two cents; it might help others in waiting, and a couple pages ago Ellipse had asked others who had received their keyboards for input, so here we go:

Image

My keyboard was shipped on Jan 26. within the U.S. to a relatives address, I didn't want international shipping to my home in Europe to avoid customs, tax and international shipping charges, all of which usually are quite a lot to us folks outside the U.S, and planned to pick it up whenever I had the chance to travel to the states. Which turned out to be sooner than I thought, I received and opened the box a few days ago.

My keyboard arrived safe and sound, only the spacebar was dislodged. I ran through a key test looking for buzzing springs or non responsive keys, I had 5 keys that had an "after buzz" and one key that had " a non registering sound". I removed them, held the keyboard vertical spacebar side up, teased and tugged the springs then coaxed them a couple times down into the barrel, and reinserted the caps. This fixed the buzzing in all the caps but one, and fixed the non registering sound to a "registering ping" in the other. The one cap that wasn't fixed was a stubborn fellow, and took me I think 4-5 trys till it got rid of the buzz. (Just follow the video guideline that Ellipse made) - this was a fairly easy process.

I connected the keyboard straight to my computer, and everything works right out of the box. I did a quick type test at around 90wpm, and everything went beautifully, all keys register and there was no spamming. For my selected option, the HHKB style split right shift Fn key, and the layering for the numpad on the right were already done, to my pleasant surprise, I thought I would have to map each key out in xwhatsit when I received it.

(one thing I would suggest for Ellipse is, for future reference: when selecting the keyboard configuration on the order page, to have
a visual representation of the layout. I spend quite some time trying to make sure what I was choosing was the correct one for me- you responded quickly and were very helpful via email about this, it would just be easier on you and the person ordering to have such layouts visually available).

The Case: The finish is quite well done, I didn't really notice the mold line that a few people were mentioning, my only criticism in this would be the color. I was expecting that classic off-white IBM color, and in reality it has more of a beige tone added into that mix. The photos do not reflect the color, in the photos, it looks as the color that I was expecting. It's not a big deal by the way, at least for me- it has that "NES box left out in the sun over two decades color tint" feel. Those who know what that is will get it. By the way this case is a behemoth. Lifting it to take out and reinsert the keycaps might have thrown off my shoulder. But the finish quality and texture is great, like it should be.

The Typing: Wonderful buckling spring action. Nothing more needed to say. It's been a while since I've typed on one, and the feel of it is very close to the originals in which I remember. It is a bit more crisp and precise than the Model M's that I'm used to, but those have decades of wear and tear on them, so in time these will mush up a bit too. My only complaint, like a couple others is the space bar. That one kinda surprised me. It feels very "hollow". The satisfying thunk sound, or feel isn't present. I haven't messed around with the wire (bending it and the like) yet, and I'm sure someone much more intuitive than I will find a mod that will improve the feel of it within the coming months, so I'll be on the lookout. Perhaps gluing a thin strip of metal underneath the space bar might add to its key feel?

All in all, this is an absolutely wonderful keyboard. And a huge undertaking for one man. I read someone criticize that the board wasn't 100% perfect upon arrival, and that you shouldn't need to fix buzzing springs, etc. These keyboards need to be tuned. Like a piano. Even with Ellipse's individual QC, things shift around during shipping, etc.. People who pay this kind of money for an enthusiast keyboard and spend countless more on mech keyboards, and caps, and switches etc, are also of the variety who like to tinker. Or at least have learned to do so. I went into this buy with the possibility that it might actually not go through, that's always a risk, and recreating a keyboard like this down to so much of its detail and feel is a very very big undertaking, and accomplishing it on such a level is a really commendable task. It was worth the wait. So, congrats Ellipse, bravo.

This is now my daily driver, and isn't she a beauty and a joy forever.

Image

daphnis

29 Feb 2020, 01:32

Twst wrote:
11 Feb 2020, 20:14
Have you tried running is as root?
You might need to look at the permissions to your keyboard :roll:
Thanks! running as root worked. I'd rather not do that, though. How can I change permissions for the keyboard?

User avatar
tentator

29 Feb 2020, 09:41

Any news on this?
It still does not work on latest version
tentator wrote:
07 Feb 2020, 11:25
DMA wrote:
07 Feb 2020, 02:40
tentator wrote:
06 Feb 2020, 11:03
IMG_20200206_110122.jpg
I asked for "Latest firmware, latest utility"

Latest utility is 1.0.0.SIX
relax my friend, usually it's a communication problem, you were focussing on latest trunk of the firmware, but I anyway can tell you that the documentation is having a broken link towards the utility:
https://github.com/dmaone/CommonSense/b ... r/releases
and even when checking here:
https://github.com/dmaone/CommonSense/releases
I still see 1.0.0.5.

So maybe you have to update a couple of things or you can point me towards a link of where the version 1.0.0.6 is and maybe we sort it out?

Also unclear to me: what would a different version of the utility do in the context of the macro? define it better.. so that I should remove the macro and recreate it again with an updated utility?

Ellipse

29 Feb 2020, 16:31

Thanks jasburbak for the detailed review. I am glad that these keyboards will be used as daily drivers all around the world!

I have added visual representations of the layouts and function layer to each of the four product pages to help everyone choose.

And here's my note on the beige color from a few weeks ago: viewtopic.php?p=459699#p459699

In addition to the methods described in the "QC secrets" for fixing buzzing springs, I have found that sometimes just stretching the spring and then reinstalling the key reduces the buzz - the buzz may have to do with a length of spring slightly too short for a particular key, as well as a spring end that should be a bit closer to the flipper nub.

User avatar
webwit
Wild Duck

03 Mar 2020, 17:39

I have a problem with some combinations with the Fn key layer on the HHKB version.

Fn + ` should give Del, but when typed really quickly, I often get `.
The cursor keys by Fn combinations also sometimes gives similar problems, but to a lesser degree.
I have defined another Fn key (left to spacebar) which gives a little bit less problems, but still there.
It's like if I'm too quick, it doesn't notice I pressed the Fn key before the other key. The IBM capsense util does show them both registering correctly though. I tried different voltage thresholds and debounce threshold 6 and 11, but to no avail.
I did tighten the tabs of the inner assembly a bit and it seems to have helped a bit with the 2nd Fn left to the spacebar, but not 100% yet. No change with the standard Fn right to the right shift key.
Is there anything else I can try?

Ellipse

03 Mar 2020, 18:37

The Fn key should have Fn1 selected in the drop down menu on both the Base Layer and Layer 1 of the xwhatsit GUI. If it is not selected in Layer 1 as well, you may get the issue you describe.

User avatar
webwit
Wild Duck

03 Mar 2020, 19:01

Yeah I noticed when I defined the second function key, so I copied that from the first function key. I have it in both layers.

User avatar
webwit
Wild Duck

03 Mar 2020, 21:02

Here's a video. It happens when making quick combinations with the Fn key which are no problem on other keyboards, hardware or software Fn. Doesn't matter where I program the Fn key, so it's not a faulty key. Programmed the Fn on both layers. If you play it at the slowest speed when I'm typing and pause frequently, you see the Fn key registering and then the ` and they will register together very briefly but still gives BOTH a Del and ` instead of just Del. Firmware? It's also Fn plus cursor keys etc. I have no problem with shift and ctrl. That reeks to the software implementation of Fn? It can't like cope with the simultaneous release of the keys.

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