F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards

Ellipse

29 Apr 2020, 20:20

All is well here; just trying to catch up on things and on the dozens of requests from people that have come in recently. Thanks to all who have checked in with me - apologies for not replying sooner. Hope everyone on the forums is doing OK in these times.

Thanks xyzzy for your review and photos - everyone please keep them coming!

I hope to have some updates later this week.

daijoubu

01 May 2020, 08:57

Does anyone get occasional typed characters despite being on the debounce 6 firmware? I will occasionally need to increase my Current Threshold up to 131 or 132 for this issue to go away, but then after some time, my J key refuses to register until I bring the Current Threshold back down a few. Then it becomes a loop of an issue, because eventually the extra character problem comes back.

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tentator

01 May 2020, 10:35

daijoubu wrote:
01 May 2020, 08:57
Does anyone get occasional typed characters despite being on the debounce 6 firmware? I will occasionally need to increase my Current Threshold up to 131 or 132 for this issue to go away, but then after some time, my J key refuses to register until I bring the Current Threshold back down a few. Then it becomes a loop of an issue, because eventually the extra character problem comes back.
If you're not scared to open it and reach the reset pads of the controller I'd suggest you to test the qmk firmware from Andrei and see if his autocalibration is more reliable?

Let me know.

Tent:wq

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Twst

01 May 2020, 23:37

tentator wrote:
01 May 2020, 10:35

If you're not scared to open it and reach the reset pads of the controller I'd suggest you to test the qmk firmware from Andrei and see if his autocalibration is more reliable?

Let me know.

Tent:wq
Is the capsense qmk firmware released anywhere for the fearless?

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tentator

02 May 2020, 00:24

Not sure if @Andrei got courage to do so, but I'm using it since weeks without issues.. the thong is we wanted to compile and test the firmware also with other boards other than the f62 and I'm waiting since ages to get either the parts or a built xwhatsit to do so...

Btw is there somebody, preferably in europe, that has a xwhatsit to sell or rent me? Beamspring or F both are ok, need to test both anyway.

If you anyway want try it i can definitely send you a couple of hex firmwares to try!!
Tent:wq

daijoubu

02 May 2020, 13:14

tentator wrote:
01 May 2020, 10:35
daijoubu wrote:
01 May 2020, 08:57
Does anyone get occasional typed characters despite being on the debounce 6 firmware? I will occasionally need to increase my Current Threshold up to 131 or 132 for this issue to go away, but then after some time, my J key refuses to register until I bring the Current Threshold back down a few. Then it becomes a loop of an issue, because eventually the extra character problem comes back.
If you're not scared to open it and reach the reset pads of the controller I'd suggest you to test the qmk firmware from Andrei and see if his autocalibration is more reliable?

Let me know.

Tent:wq
Are you currently using it, and has it solved your issues? I am currently using pandrew's fix with debounce 6.
Will I lose pandrew's fix if I use andrei's qmk firmware?

TIA :)

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webwit
Wild Duck

02 May 2020, 14:23

Pandrew === Andrei. He first fixed the xwhatsit firmware and then proceeded and made QMK compatible with capsense. I haven't tried that one.

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tentator

02 May 2020, 19:04

daijoubu wrote:
02 May 2020, 13:14
tentator wrote:
01 May 2020, 10:35
daijoubu wrote:
01 May 2020, 08:57
Does anyone get occasional typed characters despite being on the debounce 6 firmware? I will occasionally need to increase my Current Threshold up to 131 or 132 for this issue to go away, but then after some time, my J key refuses to register until I bring the Current Threshold back down a few. Then it becomes a loop of an issue, because eventually the extra character problem comes back.
If you're not scared to open it and reach the reset pads of the controller I'd suggest you to test the qmk firmware from Andrei and see if his autocalibration is more reliable?

Let me know.

Tent:wq
Are you currently using it, and has it solved your issues? I am currently using pandrew's fix with debounce 6.
Will I lose pandrew's fix if I use andrei's qmk firmware?

TIA :)
totally fixed all my issues (it autocalibrates, i.e. you don't need to worry about debounces etc anymore) and finally got the endgame dream I always had: QMK firmware capabilities on a capacitive IBM board! (especially on 60% boards I use space-fn and the bottom right modifiers are dual role: both arrow keys when tapped and modifiers as usual when hold)

So if someone is interested I can give him a couple of firmwares to preview/test one with just the standard layout but with autocalibration and QMK behind the hood and or one with also space-fn and arrow keys modifiers. Just PM me.

And again thanks pandrei!

Kr,
tent:wq

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Twst

02 May 2020, 19:51

Great that QMK is working well!
Looking forward to pandew releasing it to be able to generate hex files myself. While it will be cool to test a standard layout or your layered layout, I need to be able to tweak it to my liking for a daily usage.
Xwhatsits capsense does work perfectly on my boards, but i guess QMK can do all sort of cool things I haven't thought of yet.
Hopefully pandrew hasn't stopped working on it and are close to a public release 8-)

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Mattr567

07 May 2020, 07:33

Has anyone noticed any "break-in" with their boards? I have been using mine for a few months as a daily and I swear the feel and noise have changed a bit. Feels and sounds a bit more like the originals, that crispiness.

Also still looking for a solenoid driver board after I nuked mine back in February. Who's selling them these days?

tigpha

07 May 2020, 09:42

I've just caught up reading the latest posts spanning a few years.

Ellipse, this is an epic story, and monumental effort on your part. How you hoisted this project over many years is a story that could fill a book! I'm sure that there's plenty of experience and wisdom you learnt in the process, that a few others would find useful to know. Congratulations!

daijoubu

11 May 2020, 08:25

tentator wrote:
02 May 2020, 19:04
daijoubu wrote:
02 May 2020, 13:14
tentator wrote:
01 May 2020, 10:35


If you're not scared to open it and reach the reset pads of the controller I'd suggest you to test the qmk firmware from Andrei and see if his autocalibration is more reliable?

Let me know.

Tent:wq
Are you currently using it, and has it solved your issues? I am currently using pandrew's fix with debounce 6.
Will I lose pandrew's fix if I use andrei's qmk firmware?

TIA :)
totally fixed all my issues (it autocalibrates, i.e. you don't need to worry about debounces etc anymore) and finally got the endgame dream I always had: QMK firmware capabilities on a capacitive IBM board! (especially on 60% boards I use space-fn and the bottom right modifiers are dual role: both arrow keys when tapped and modifiers as usual when hold)

So if someone is interested I can give him a couple of firmwares to preview/test one with just the standard layout but with autocalibration and QMK behind the hood and or one with also space-fn and arrow keys modifiers. Just PM me.

And again thanks pandrei!

Kr,
tent:wq

That sounds like a good fix. The drift in calibration is driving me nuts, it's slowly becoming unusable actually :(.
Sometimes I need to have the capsense utility opened all the time to switch current threshold as I battle random keystrokes.

I'll drop you a PM :).

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Muirium
µ

11 May 2020, 11:50

My OG Kishsaver has occasional flakiness with Xwhatsit’s firmware too. Nothing as bad or routine as you guys are saying, but you expect 100.00% from solid daily boards like these. Reckon the patched TMK you’re talking about would work for me on an original Xwhatsit made controller?

User avatar
tentator

11 May 2020, 16:24

Muirium wrote:
11 May 2020, 11:50
My OG Kishsaver has occasional flakiness with Xwhatsit’s firmware too. Nothing as bad or routine as you guys are saying, but you expect 100.00% from solid daily boards like these. Reckon the patched TMK you’re talking about would work for me on an original Xwhatsit made controller?
Hi Mu!
Hope you're doing fine!
I think there's no reason why it should not work on an original Kishy.. the sensing pcb is the same!
If you're up for a test... but you are on OSX, right?

Kr,
Tent:wq

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Muirium
µ

11 May 2020, 16:36

Yup. Trouble?

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tentator

11 May 2020, 16:47

don't think so but never compiled qt5 stuff for osx.. should work.. or did you?

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Muirium
µ

11 May 2020, 16:49

Nah. I just run Xwhatsit’s old controller GUI. Still runs fine even in (64 bit only) Catalina.

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tentator

11 May 2020, 16:51

but you know how to flash the firmware there? or how to flash firmware with qmk in OSX? :)

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Muirium
µ

11 May 2020, 19:21

Yes, Xwhatsit’s controller GUI has a firmware upload section, which I have used a few times back when he was still developing his controller firmware. Haven’t tested that functionality in Catalina, but everything else still works, so it’s worth a shot.

As for QMK: I use a QMK GUI (QMK Toolbox if memory serves) to flash Hasu’s controller in my HHKB and Alps64. It works well. I just need a hex file, obviously.

Anyone got a link for an overview about this alternate firmware? The things I need to know are:

1. Does it work on original Xwhatsit hardware. I don’t want to resolder my Kish.

2. How does auto calibration work? Is it really doing a different threshold for every key, like CommonSense?

3. How do I customise my layers and macros. My Kish has plenty!

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darkcruix

11 May 2020, 19:27

tentator wrote:
11 May 2020, 16:51
but you know how to flash the firmware there? or how to flash firmware with qmk in OSX? :)
Install brew (https://brew.sh/)
From the command line - install dfu-programmer (brew install dfu-programmer)
Then follow the instructions from the PDF on updating firmware (page 15)
[don't forget: Bring the keyboard into the boot loader (start Capsense and click Tools > Bootloader)]
==> at this point you would want to have a secondary keyboard attached :)


Hope this helps

User avatar
Muirium
µ

11 May 2020, 19:28

My QMK GUI does the dfu-programmer stuff for me, wrapped in a drag and drop interface, and without the need to give myself a migraine, from source, with Brew. But I know where you’re coming from, thanks!

Ellipse

11 May 2020, 19:30

I have just posted another update on the project blog: https://www.modelfkeyboards.com/blog/

Summary: Model F orders continue shipping out, Passed ONE MILLION DOLLARS in orders, New Early Shipping Option without Keys, Reviews coming in, Sublimation Update, Second Container Ship, COVID-19 Slowdown, xwhatsit firmware update and new QMK firmware ported to xwhatsit Model F

**If you can help me by requesting early delivery of your order it would be much appreciated! Kindly see the web site blog for details before sending over your request.

I wanted to highlight the update about the dye sublimation as a number of people have been asking about it:

Sublimation update – mass sublimation expected to start in June. Given the huge number of orders so far and the amount of time I’ve recently realized it takes to QC each keyboard order, plus the longer than expected time it would take me to do each key set’s dye sublimation personally as planned, I am working with some keycap dye submination firms to take my keys and transfer sheets and take care of the work 100% to the sublimation standards I’ve already achieved, thus saving me time and allowing the orders to go out much faster than planned. This will ensure that the dye sublimation quality is up to my standards, as well as save the months of continuous dye sublimation I’d be doing – leaving me time to focus on the final QC and on getting orders out more quickly. This will help everyone’s orders to go out earlier than if I were to take care of them as originally planned, while using 100% the same materials that have produced the approved XT quality sublimation results so far (see recent blog posts for photos).

***For this reason I am sending out keyboards upon request without keys, in order to keep things moving. I encourage everyone to take advantage of this option to help me fill up the downtime by getting out orders before the keycaps finish mass sublimation. Those of you with other buckling spring (Model M or Model F) keyboards can use those keys for the time being, or order keys from Unicomp or eBay to use for the time being. Please message me first if interested and I will let you know how many units of the store item $1 increments you’ll need to order for separate shipping of printed keys (everyone can still wait for their full order to be delivered in one package too).

Once the sublimated keys come in I will be ramping up order fulfillment in order to get as many keyboards out each week as possible. I am hoping to have everything out by year end. Thanks again to everyone for their patience as we bring back these great keyboards.

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tentator

11 May 2020, 21:46

Thanks ellipse for the update!!

Btw, pandrei's FW keeps improving every day!! :)
Testing still multiple OS and I still have to manage to get some xwhatsit board to test on other boards than the F62, but will soon have updates.
Btw I'd need a couple of confirmations from you about the two PCB's, the matrix and the controller:
1. are there differences between the original Kishsaver PCB and your F62 PCB? If yes which ones (ideally a screenshot of the matrix pcb would be great)
2. are there differences between the original xwhatsit modelF controller and your "compact" revision of the controller (is it only placement of components difference or anything else (ideally if something else also here a picture of the controller pcb would be great)
Asking for firmware multi-compatibility only of course here.

Kr,
tent:wq

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tentator

11 May 2020, 23:16

ok I already auto-answer myself about question 2. it's a revision of xwhatsit's pcb done by wcass! only difference relevant for fw seems to be the row order is swapped.. for better routing and compacting the pcb I guess.. anyway so we know for future reference.. :)

Ellipse

11 May 2020, 23:27

Thanks tentator and pandrew for the updates regarding the new firmware. It is great to have multiple options regarding firmware and software to help ensure these keyboards work for decades more.

To answer your questions:
1. They are the exact same layout on the F62 and F77 capacitive PCBs as the originals.
2. No hardware difference with the smaller and larger xwhatsit controllers, besides possibly differences in the best voltage threshold. If I recall correctly, there is a difference in the matrices, meaning a layout file for the larger xwhatsit file will produce different key assignments on a smaller xwhatsit. (e.g. Row 1 on the larger xwhatsit may be row 8 on the smaller xwhatsit). Both xwhatsits have 8 rows and 16 columns.

consensual-penis

14 May 2020, 03:54

Ellipse wrote:
11 May 2020, 23:27
Thanks tentator and pandrew for the updates regarding the new firmware. It is great to have multiple options regarding firmware and software to help ensure these keyboards work for decades more.

To answer your questions:
1. They are the exact same layout on the F62 and F77 capacitive PCBs as the originals.
2. No hardware difference with the smaller and larger xwhatsit controllers, besides possibly differences in the best voltage threshold. If I recall correctly, there is a difference in the matrices, meaning a layout file for the larger xwhatsit file will produce different key assignments on a smaller xwhatsit. (e.g. Row 1 on the larger xwhatsit may be row 8 on the smaller xwhatsit). Both xwhatsits have 8 rows and 16 columns.
so I have to ask, since I don't know a damn thing about programming or keyboard voltages or anything of that nature. Am I going to have any issues using my board?

I keep seeing all this talk about xwhatsit, voltages, and QMK. QMK is the only thing that I know anything about (and My base of knowledge is pretty damn small), the thing I really want to know is if I'm gonna have any issues once I get the keyboard in hand when it comes to these things?

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wobbled

14 May 2020, 09:29

consensual-penis wrote:
14 May 2020, 03:54
Ellipse wrote:
11 May 2020, 23:27
Thanks tentator and pandrew for the updates regarding the new firmware. It is great to have multiple options regarding firmware and software to help ensure these keyboards work for decades more.

To answer your questions:
1. They are the exact same layout on the F62 and F77 capacitive PCBs as the originals.
2. No hardware difference with the smaller and larger xwhatsit controllers, besides possibly differences in the best voltage threshold. If I recall correctly, there is a difference in the matrices, meaning a layout file for the larger xwhatsit file will produce different key assignments on a smaller xwhatsit. (e.g. Row 1 on the larger xwhatsit may be row 8 on the smaller xwhatsit). Both xwhatsits have 8 rows and 16 columns.
so I have to ask, since I don't know a damn thing about programming or keyboard voltages or anything of that nature. Am I going to have any issues using my board?

I keep seeing all this talk about xwhatsit, voltages, and QMK. QMK is the only thing that I know anything about (and My base of knowledge is pretty damn small), the thing I really want to know is if I'm gonna have any issues once I get the keyboard in hand when it comes to these things?
No you won't run into any issues, setting voltage threshold and programming the board is all done through an informative piece of software.
The voltage setting is basically trial and error so you find your keyboards sweet spot, and you'll get the hang of programming it in minutes.

User avatar
Twst

14 May 2020, 09:44

While it is cool that there are options and continious development software side. The default xwhatsit is perfectly fine, no issues at all for daily usage - so you should have no worries.
On both my boards the threshold was set and forget in xwhatsit software. I haven't had the need to adjust anything after initial setting.
My boards doesn't mind temperature swings either - only time I have had to adjust the voltage threshold after my initial setting was when moving the board to another computer. ;)

User avatar
tentator

14 May 2020, 10:03

Well yes, I also am a big fan of just having more options in the end.
And yes, xwhatsit FW works, but the QMK just works better.. like you can even move the board from one room to another without needing to edit some number! :P :P :P
But again it depends on your needs as well, I do make extensive use of layers and macros, so QMK is definitely at another feature level, but if you don't make extensive usage then which FW is maybe a detail..
Also we could discuss if T/QMK is or not the standard, de facto, in the mech keyboard world..
All this while being honest about pros and cons, yes QMK also has cons, basically only one: the need to recompile and flash when you want to change something major in your layout, and this might be more or less disturbing for one or the other user, but that's it..
And yeah, the list of advantages instead is quite huge if you ask me.. :D

tent:wq

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Twst

14 May 2020, 10:51

I am personally eager to test the QMK on the model F when I modify the layout to my liking - it's not that I really _need_ it. I just like to tinker with things.

But people should not be scared off by thinking you have to do all kinds of pcb-shorting and flashing to get the keyboard stable and working. That is not the case, one could tinker if you like - but one could use the standard xwhatsit software and be perfectly happy. Adjusting layouts and layers on the fly and all other basic stuff is really easy on the capsense software.

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