F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards

cap

16 Jul 2020, 19:45

I have floss modded my F77 with no problems. I used Superfloss, and I pushed the floss down enough that it does not protrude above the tops of the springs.

I don't know how I would remove the floss if I ever wanted to. I almost didn't do the mod for that reason. But I did and I'm happy with it.

clickclack

16 Jul 2020, 20:01

I bought some fine tweezers and have had no trouble removing the floss when needed. I believe the only difference between the F62 and the compact F62 is the attachment method of the bottom plate to the case of the keyboard ('tabs' on the side vs folded legs), so I doubt that's an issue.

BucklingSprings

16 Jul 2020, 20:10

Hypersphere wrote:
15 Jul 2020, 17:54
@Ellipse: (or anyone who might have ideas regarding this):

Some of the keys on my F62 -- especially the Enter/Return key -- make a harsh metallic sound when bottoming out.
I think I have the same metallic sound with my enter key. I have started to love that sound though. Its like the case
is daring the keys: I AM MADE OF METAL. I AM NOT BUDGING WHEN YOU WIMPY PLASTIC KEYS ARE TRYING
TO COME FOR ME.

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Hypersphere

16 Jul 2020, 20:17

@cap:
@clickclack:
@BucklingSprings:
Thanks for your comments. Still don't know why the floss mod went so smoothly on my XT and was so difficult on my F62. However, the springs on my XT feel heavier than those on my F62, but I have not yet measured the actuation force(s) on either keyboard.

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tentator

16 Jul 2020, 21:37

Hi Hypersphere!
I Flossmodded my standard F62, and I had indeed to make the floss thread shorter for some keys, or let's say the lenght I had to customize per key.. It was a bit time consuming, but I'm super happy with the result now. To remove the thread when it's shorter than the spring I use the kind of tweezers I have for doing electronics jobs and soldering stuff, they have long and very pointy tips.. Do you have some like those maybe? I think they are sold as to position smd resistors.. Should not be too expensive in the end but maybe not too easy to find in a commodity shop, depending on where you live... Otherwise you can do with a toothpick but that is much more challenging then... For the random actuations I'd definitely suggest to give it a try with flashing qmk..

Tent

Admiral

16 Jul 2020, 21:56

I just got my Classic F62 and Compact F62 and holy crap these are amazing! I don't have keycaps to test them out yet except the spacebar.

I noticed on my Classic the spacebar won't depress, and I am not sure if I am putting enough pressure on it or if it stuck somehow. I don't want to risk breaking anything. I have a small scratch on my compact but it's barely noticeable, and have the same noticeable line near the "pencil holder" on my Classic. Otherwise everything looks great and sounds amazing from what I can hear.

I noticed some barrels don't have springs in them. Are these for if you want to switch to the HHKB layout?

And wow. I didn't realise how hefty the classic is compared to the compact. It is amazingly hefty I can't help but laugh at the pure awesomeness of these keyboards. Can't wait to get the solenoids, drivers, and keys to test these out. Maybe I will have to order blank keycaps as backups.

Thanks Ellipse again for everything, and thanks for providing me with my first mechanical keyboards. It's too bad these have to be a limited run and no one really makes keyboards like these. I really appreciate the work that has gone into this.

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Hypersphere

16 Jul 2020, 22:25

Admiral wrote:
16 Jul 2020, 21:56
<snip>
Thanks Ellipse again for everything, and thanks for providing me with my first mechanical keyboards. It's too bad these have to be a limited run and no one really makes keyboards like these. I really appreciate the work that has gone into this.
Your first mechanical keyboards are two F62s?! Well, nothing quite like starting at the top! Now you need to buy all of the lesser keyboards so that you can truly appreciate your Model-F acquisitions!

Admiral

16 Jul 2020, 22:40

Hypersphere wrote:
16 Jul 2020, 22:25
Admiral wrote:
16 Jul 2020, 21:56
<snip>
Thanks Ellipse again for everything, and thanks for providing me with my first mechanical keyboards. It's too bad these have to be a limited run and no one really makes keyboards like these. I really appreciate the work that has gone into this.
Your first mechanical keyboards are two F62s?! Well, nothing quite like starting at the top! Now you need to buy all of the lesser keyboards so that you can truly appreciate your Model-F acquisitions!
Ah yes it only can go sideways or down from these. After the Model F and Model M keyboards and I guess the beamspring, I hear the next best were Alps, but they don't make these anymore either.

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Hypersphere

16 Jul 2020, 23:12

@Admiral: Fujitsu and Realforce Topre-switch keyboards are worthy contenders as well, and they are currently available as new keyboards. My daily driver for years has been a lubed and silenced HHKB Pro 2 with 45g Topre switches. I recently upgraded this to the new HHKB Pro Hybrid Type-S. I also have Reaforce TKL board, one with 55g Topre switches and the other with 45g Topre switches. These provide a very different experience from Model-F buckling springs, but I enjoy the quiet, smooth, and refined tactility.

There are many flavors of Alps switches, including various forms of linear, tactile, and clicky. Blue (clicky) Alps are highly prized, but now quite expensive. One of my favorite boards is a Northgate Omnikey 101 with white "pine" Alps -- I like it better than my Model M.

kmnov2017

16 Jul 2020, 23:14

cap wrote:
16 Jul 2020, 19:45


I don't know how I would remove the floss if I ever wanted to. I almost didn't do the mod for that reason. But I did and I'm happy with it.
By using a vacuum....

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Hypersphere

16 Jul 2020, 23:30

For those who might be interested in a dust cover for your standard F62, if you should happen to have a medium-sized plexiglass "keyboard roof" from EliteKeyboards (now out of business), these fit perfectly, with the top side resting above the "pencil holder" on the F62 case. The small-sized roofs (designed for the HHKB Pro 2) could also serve to cover just the keys on the F62, with the top side resting above the top row of keys. I suppose there would be serviceable covers that are currently for sale elsewhere, but I haven't looked into this.

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Hypersphere

17 Jul 2020, 02:11

tentator wrote:
16 Jul 2020, 21:37
Hi Hypersphere!
I Flossmodded my standard F62, and I had indeed to make the floss thread shorter for some keys, or let's say the lenght I had to customize per key.. It was a bit time consuming, but I'm super happy with the result now. To remove the thread when it's shorter than the spring I use the kind of tweezers I have for doing electronics jobs and soldering stuff, they have long and very pointy tips.. Do you have some like those maybe? I think they are sold as to position smd resistors.. Should not be too expensive in the end but maybe not too easy to find in a commodity shop, depending on where you live... Otherwise you can do with a toothpick but that is much more challenging then... For the random actuations I'd definitely suggest to give it a try with flashing qmk..

Tent
I am still seeing seemingly random actuations. Thus far, these seem to be occurring when I am typing into a website, such as DT, or in a browser-based email, such as gmail. Why would flashing the board with different firmware such as QMK alleviate this problem? Is there a guide somewhere for flashing an F62 or F77 with QMK? Thanks.

Ellipse

17 Jul 2020, 02:28

What you describe might be due to a low threshold. The threshold should be as high a value as possible while still allowing all keys to reliably press. 124 would cause the behavior you describe in some cases.

Not to worry, hundreds of xwhatsit controllers have been working reliably for years on Windows, Mac, and Linux systems. It's not defective hardware - it's just a matter of proper configuration. The good thing with QMK firmware is that its voltage threshold setting is automatic - no manual voltage threshold adjustment needed. People with xwhatsit firmware issues who switch to QMK generally have no more issues from what I have heard.

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Hypersphere

17 Jul 2020, 02:36

Thanks, Ellipse.

Could someone assist me with getting an invitation for access to QMK beta software/firmware for the F62 keyboard? Thanks!

Ellipse

17 Jul 2020, 02:51

Also sometimes unplugging, waiting a few seconds, plugging back in, and then lowering (not increasing) the xwhatsit firmware threshold actually eliminates the ghost keys.

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Scarpia

17 Jul 2020, 07:56

I also floss modded my F77 with SuperFloss, and my floss is cut so it fits entirely inside the springs. When inserted, the top of the floss is about 1 mm below the top of the spring.

To get them out, normal tweezers and a bit of finesse worked for me (also, grabbing the spring down by the flipper and depressing&releasing it, like you do when reseating a spring, can make the floss shoot up and out like a projectile), but if I had to remove them all, I’d pull out my needle tweezers:

https://m.aliexpress.com/wholesale/esd% ... eezer.html

As for buckling after the mod, I had issues with two keys, but for those. trimming the floss to the same length as the others and pulling the spring to make it just a tiny bit longer solved it.

jujubii

17 Jul 2020, 08:13

Hypersphere wrote:
16 Jul 2020, 16:39
jujubii wrote:
16 Jul 2020, 02:53
hi everyone, just got my f77 in the mail. when i plug the keyboard into my PC, it behaves as if the function key is held down permanently (e.g., pressing 1 translates to F1, 2 to F2, a to Vol Dn, etc.). I couldn't find any way to fix this or to figure out how to remap it aka it's not plug and play for me right now.

I searched the literal OP and Ellipse's youtube videos but couldn't find any instructions. Could someone please enlighten me? I remember reading about this somewhere deep in this thread but can't manage to find it

edit: i found a wealth of information in the following places and i'm totally unsure on which to follow just to get the keyboard mapped and working normally. noob friend instructions are highly appreciated. or at least some guidance on the OP or the official website because this thing is definitely not plug&play >.>

viewtopic.php?p=467104#p467104
https://imgur.com/a/kth6dHt#O0IArSE
https://www.modelfkeyboards.com/code/
Go to the following site:

https://static.wongcornall.com/ibm-capsense-usb/0.9.0/

Download the capsense file for your operating system (e.g., Windows, Linux, or Mac). Run the capsense program. Follow the instructions provided at the following site:

https://static.wongcornall.com/ibm-capsense-usb/0.9.0/

This manual might look complicated at first, but just follow it systematically and you should be able to get your board working. You can start with section 6.1 "Initial voltage threshold setting". This is critical. You should be able to find a good setting between 100 and 150. The ideal setting for my F62 happened to be 124. Then go from there to check the mapping of the keys or to remap keys to your liking.

Good luck!
Thanks, this is a good start.

I have the IBM Capsense USB Util downloaded and booted up. Now, I'm trying to follow section 6.1.3 on "Setting the threshold". It seems that the author assumes that my state grid is all blank by default (plugged in, not having any keys pressed) - however, this isn't the case for me as (16,2), (16,3), and (16,5) are perma-highlighted. I suspect this has to do with an incorrect voltage calibration (not too sure).

Anyways, pressing keys on my keyboard does elicit their corresponding squares in the state grid to be highlighted. What should I do now? Following 6.1.3: "Gradually lower the threshold towards 0, stopping to press keys now and again to see if they register... At some point, you will notice some keys will appear as pressed that don’t correspond to physical keys. There are usually no more than 3 or 4 of these."
  • Is the latter part of this describing my situation?
  • Should I increase the current threshold so that those 3 squares become un-highlighted? (Rather, increase until only 1 of them is highlighted on having a "calibration node"?)
More on 6.1.3: "Figure 4 shows a keyboard with a calibration node registering at coordinates (11,8). If your keys are registering correctly but you don’t see a pressed “calibration key”, keep lowering the threshold—you will not be able to autocalibrate without finding one."
  • Is (11,8) THE "calibration key"? As in, I must fiddle with the voltage until I see exactly (11,8) highlighted on my end?
  • Or is (11,8) and example of a calibration key and my can be located elsewhere?
  • Do need 1 and only 1 or is there such thing as having 3 calibration keys?
Sorry, this is just a bit confusing to be because the author is vague.

edit: I'm mucking around with each cell's drop down in the Base Layer and Layer1,2,3 tabs and it's pretty straight forward to reprogram. :D :D :D However, I'm still unsure about this whole voltage calibration business. How do I know if I'm calibrated correctly/incorrectly (if some cells are perma-highlighted)?

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Hypersphere

17 Jul 2020, 15:55

@jujubii: Glad you found the drop-down menus on the tabs for Base Layer and Layers 1, 2, 3.

You need to keep lowering the current threshold until you reach a point where all the keys are actuating correctly. You want the maximum setting for actuating all keys. This will most likely be a number between 100 and 150. In my case, in my first attempt I found this number to be 124, but I ran it again and found that it was 125.

Ellipse

17 Jul 2020, 19:40

We passed the 400 keyboards milestone this week! 407 Brand New Model F Keyboards have shipped so far.

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Hypersphere

17 Jul 2020, 21:58

@Ellipse:
@Tentator:
(And anyone else who might be interested):

I have managed to flash my F62 with QMK and to use QMK to remap the layout with my preferences. This seems to have solved the problem with the spurious keypresses. However, if the problem should reappear, I will post to let people know.

I have also installed the O-rings as described for some versions of the IBM Wheelwriter. The dimensions are 16mm OD x 12mm ID x 2mm thick, Buna rubber, 70A hardness. I put a ring around the bottom of each barrel on each of the modifier keys. This has attenuated the bottoming-out "clack". It also has a slight effect on key travel bottoming-out feel, but on balance, I think I like this very simple mod. It complements the ping reduction achieved by the floss mod. Both the ring mod and the floss mod are easily reversible if you don't like the result.

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Hypersphere

17 Jul 2020, 22:24

@zod000:
@tentator:
@ellipse:
(And anyone who might be interested):

My O-rings arrived today. As promised, I am posting with my impressions. First, the following listing in Amazon is in fact $5.39 for 50 rings:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07F3 ... UTF8&psc=1

The Amazon description is, "uxcell Nitrile Rubber O-Rings 16mm OD 12mm ID 2mm Width, Metric Buna-N Sealing Gasket, Pack of 50"

The dimensions are: 16mm OD x 12mm ID x 2mm thick.

They fit around the outside of the barrels on the barrel plate of an F62 or F77. I debated stretching them a bit to fit around the "nub" at the base of each barrel, but I decided to just let them rest on the nub. My thinking was that if they were stretched around the nub, they might work loose and end up sitting on top of the nub anyway, so I decided to go with what seems like the more stable state.

The result is that the harsh metallic bottoming-out sound is eliminated or at least attenuated/modulated. There is also what I regard as a small effect on key travel and bottoming-out feel -- the rings provide a softer landing.

If you are bothered by the bottoming-out sounds of your F62 or F77, you might give the O-ring mod a try. If you don't like the effect, it is very easily reversible.

Thus far, I have put the O-rings only on the modifiers and spacebar. I don't mind the bottoming-out sound of the alphanumeric keys. I do mind the ping, and so I have done the floss mod on all of the keys on my F62. I regard the O-ring treatment as complementary to the floss mod.

yac

18 Jul 2020, 17:38

Did anyone try transplanting their flipper+spring assemblies from XT F or similar keyboards into their modern versions? As i understand it it should be possible. Might give it that extra bit of feel and sound for those still preferring the vintage stuff.

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Hypersphere

18 Jul 2020, 21:06

yac wrote:
18 Jul 2020, 17:38
Did anyone try transplanting their flipper+spring assemblies from XT F or similar keyboards into their modern versions? As i understand it it should be possible. Might give it that extra bit of feel and sound for those still preferring the vintage stuff.
Interesting idea. I've not tried this myself. Regarding sound and feel, many components contribute, but a major factor is the case. For example, the original IBM-XT keyboard case provides hollow spaces that can serve as resonating chambers -- these are nearly absent in the standard F62 and F77 cases and perhaps even more so in the ultracompact cases.

A few years ago, I transplanted a V60 keyboard with Matias clicky switches from its hollow plastic case into a TEX aluminum case -- essentially a shallow metal tray. The change in sound was dramatic. It was as if all the life had gone out of the switches. I put the V60 back into its cheap plastic case and the switches came alive again.

The feel of switches can also be noticeably influenced by the case or case-plate combination. For example, the Topre switches in Realforce boards are mounted in a steel plate, whereas the Topre switches in the HHKB Pro 2 are case-mounted in a plastic case. Although I find the feel of the Realforce boards to be more solid and refined than that of the HHKB, I prefer typing on the HHKB, as it feels more lively, perhaps because of greater resiliency in the case-mounted switches (although I have not measured the relative flexibility of the two boards).

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darkcruix

18 Jul 2020, 21:28

I did not transplant an old flipper to the newer cases, but I did compare the original F107 with the new F77 and F62.
Interestingly the Zinc cases didn't have much difference (old or new, wide or narrow). Sure, you could hear and feel a slight variance, but that even happened between two F XT that came from the same source.
However, the F122 sounds different compared to the zinc cases (4704 family). It has more bass and less of the higher pitched ringing. I doubt it is related to the springs or flippers - it is the complete backplate and plastic top case with all the resonating potential in the F122 that makes the difference.

troglotype

18 Jul 2020, 22:30

Ellipse wrote:
10 Jul 2020, 18:37
troglotype would you mind trying the older 0.9.1 firmware I posted here: viewtopic.php?p=467905#p467905

Maybe the 0.9.2 firmware is causing some issues?
@Ellipse I am sorry for failing to get back to you on this. Both F62 and F77 are performing flawlessly with QMK and the past two weeks were (and the coming two weeks will be) extremely busy at work so I have had no opportunity to revert to xwhatsit's firmware. All I can say is that your keyboards are holding up extremely well and are a joy to type on.

Jotokun

18 Jul 2020, 23:38

My F62 and F77 Compact arrived this week, and wow... these things are awesome! The key feel and sound are very close to my F122. Both the classic and compact cases have quite a nice heft to them, and I was pleasantly surprised to see that the F77 used USB-C instead of MicroUSB.

I have a Unicomp keycap set on my F62, aside from left shift as my Unicomp left shift was getting stuck when pressed. The F77 has mostly Wheelwriter caps, with some various others to fill in the gaps. I'm looking forward to the completion of dye sublimation for the new caps, I think these would be even better with keys that are higher quality or more consistent than these placeholders.
IMG_0365.jpeg
IMG_0365.jpeg (2.43 MiB) Viewed 677 times
IMG_0358.jpeg
IMG_0358.jpeg (2.77 MiB) Viewed 677 times
The space bar on my F62 did often get stuck when pressing at first, but I was able to fix that by carefully adjusting the stabilizer tabs. Now it's operating flawlessly! Only other thing I changed was adding a macro to make Shift + Esc print a ~.

The F77 appears to work great at first glace, but if I type quickly on it I find I'm getting phantom key presses with one of my computers. It doesn't seem like adjusting the voltage threshold is helping much... below 124 and keys start showing up as constantly pressed, around 140 I get random key presses when not pressing anything, and thresholds in between seems to have the original issue. Maybe it's just me, but it seems to be at its worst when using keys on the bottom row. I'll have to keep playing around with the configuration, I'm sure it's a software issue and nothing wrong with the keyboard itself.

Aside from that issue, I'm very impressed with these keyboards. I never thought I'd be able to own my favorite switch in something with this sort of size and layout. Ellipse, thank you so much for making the dream real and for pursuing such a high quality result in the process!

Ellipse

19 Jul 2020, 00:14

Jotokun would you mind trying the older 0.9.1 debounce 6 firmware I posted here: viewtopic.php?p=467905#p467905

Maybe the 0.9.2 firmware is causing some issues?

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Hypersphere

19 Jul 2020, 00:38

@Ellipse: In your opinion, which of the following lettered keys are superior for use on the new F62/F77 boards, in terms of aesthetics, sound, and feel (until the new keys are available from the ones you are having made):

1. One-piece from an IBM F-XT or F-122.
2. Two-piece from an F-122.
3. Two-piece from Unicomp.
4. One-piece from Unicomp (are these now available? I got mine serveral years ago, and they are two-piece).

What about Model-M keys? Are they substantially different from those that were used on Model-F boards?

Thanks.

Ellipse

19 Jul 2020, 02:08

I prefer all one piece IBM keys but I am wondering what other people have concluded from their experimentations with different key sets - please do share!

Jotokun

19 Jul 2020, 02:39

Ellipse wrote:
19 Jul 2020, 00:14
Jotokun would you mind trying the older 0.9.1 debounce 6 firmware I posted here: viewtopic.php?p=467905#p467905

Maybe the 0.9.2 firmware is causing some issues?
Unfortunately, I'm not seeing an improvement with 0.9.1.

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