F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards

User avatar
Hypersphere

22 Jul 2020, 14:39

Has anyone here done a "sound and feel" comparison between new XT-quality keys and original keys from an IBM XT on their new F62 and/or F77?

ash152152

22 Jul 2020, 16:44

Hi all, just received my board today and trying to follow the QC video to test my board.
First of all, what is the "buzz" srping stand for?
My spacebar seems to be stuck when I hit it when my left thumb with a 20-30 degree angle and this does not happen when I hit it with my right thumb.

User avatar
darkcruix

22 Jul 2020, 16:45

xyzzy wrote:
22 Jul 2020, 10:07
rgleas wrote:
21 Jul 2020, 23:34
The F62 was very awkward at first, especially with FN + [ - ; - ' - / (up - left - right - down) for arrow keys
I also love the HHKB form factor (I have been using an HHKB for a long time, which has been replaced by a F62 exactly like yours) and I subscribe to every word you wrote.

The F62 "split backspace, split right shift" is the best keyboard I ever owned, and I am seriously thinking to sell off most of my other keyboards (except maybe a Model M and the HHKB) and get another spare F62.

Regarding the cursor placement, I have also remapped the bottom right modifier group to act as cursor cluster when the keys are pressed on their own, and as standard modifiers (shift, super, alt, control) when pressed together with other keys.

I'm not sure if the stock remapping tool can do this, but you can use a software remapper (like Karabiner in macOS) or the beta QMK firmware.
Where did you get those keys from? :) I have them configured exactly like you and wanted to have the keycaps ...

xyzzy

22 Jul 2020, 17:00

You mean the arrow cluster? Those are just a bad graphic work to show how I configured them, in reality all my modifiers are grey/blanks.

If you mean the other white alpha/number keys, they're 2 pieces keycaps taken from an ISO Model M SSK (aka UNI04C6).

Ellipse

22 Jul 2020, 18:57

ash152152 you may want to press down a little on the left side space bar tab as the space bar may be getting caught on it.

rgleas

22 Jul 2020, 19:52

So after playing around with the solenoid, I finally found what seems to be the sweet spot (if you're someone who types fast). 10ms extend and 40ms retract have not caused me any issues whatsoever. Everything else I tried from 5-20, 15-30, 10-20, 20-40, 25-50, 10-30, etc... would all cause the keyboard to regurgiate a bunch of keys i never pressed. Anything higher like 40-80 or etc. were too slow to match the speed at which I was typing and stuff registered weird or some keys didn't get output. I still need to figure out a way to toggle it on and off. I reduced dbz recording the video below, so it may not sound very loud, but trust me it's pretty loud. Loud enough to hear in the other room with a white noise machine on, haha.

I made a quick video too if anyone is interested in here what it sounds like at 110+ WPM typing speeds.

User avatar
Hypersphere

22 Jul 2020, 20:24

Sounds good! Nevertheless, I think I'll do without the solenoid.

I'm in awe of anyone who can type 110+ wpm with high accuracy!

rgleas

22 Jul 2020, 20:36

Hypersphere wrote:
22 Jul 2020, 20:24
Sounds good! Nevertheless, I think I'll do without the solenoid.

I'm in awe of anyone who can type 110+ wpm with high accuracy!
Thanks! I will probably keep the solenoid turned off most of the time, but I think it will serve as a good pick-me-up in late afternoons when I start getting tired with whatever I'm working on lol.

User avatar
Hypersphere

23 Jul 2020, 00:51

@rgleas: Have you found a way to toggle the solenoid by issuing a keyboard command?

The solenoid should also serve as a stimulus for others within earshot -- although you might not appreciate the response to the stimulus!

Ellipse

23 Jul 2020, 01:12

xwhatsit solenoid toggle command:

viewtopic.php?p=466580#p466580

User avatar
Hypersphere

23 Jul 2020, 01:14

Could the xwhatsit solenoid toggle command be implemented in QMK?

rgleas

23 Jul 2020, 03:35

Fantastic! Life is good.

User avatar
tentator

23 Jul 2020, 09:26

Hypersphere wrote:
23 Jul 2020, 01:14
Could the xwhatsit solenoid toggle command be implemented in QMK?
Yes there are several commands implemented in qmk about it, search for qmk haptic feedback on the wiki (there's HPT_ON and HPT_OFF keycodes and many more for the speed): https://docs.qmk.fm/#/feature_haptic_fe ... c-keycodes

Tent:wq

User avatar
darkcruix

23 Jul 2020, 14:27

tentator wrote:
23 Jul 2020, 09:26
Hypersphere wrote:
23 Jul 2020, 01:14
Could the xwhatsit solenoid toggle command be implemented in QMK?
Yes there are several commands implemented in qmk about it, search for qmk haptic feedback on the wiki (there's HPT_ON and HPT_OFF keycodes and many more for the speed): https://docs.qmk.fm/#/feature_haptic_fe ... c-keycodes

Tent:wq
And it is working perfectly. I have tested it in the F62.

troglotype

23 Jul 2020, 14:44

xyzzy wrote:
22 Jul 2020, 10:07

Regarding the cursor placement, I have also remapped the bottom right modifier group to act as cursor cluster when the keys are pressed on their own, and as standard modifiers (shift, super, alt, control) when pressed together with other keys.

I'm not sure if the stock remapping tool can do this, but you can use a software remapper (like Karabiner in macOS) or the beta QMK firmware.
Great idea! If you did that in QMK, would you mind sharing your keymap.c (or the relevant passage thereof)?

User avatar
darkcruix

23 Jul 2020, 17:17

You need to adjust the config.h and rules.mk as well as shown below. keymap.c is attached

config.h
#pragma once
#define TAPPING_TERM 200
#define TAPPING_TOGGLE 2
#define SOLENOID_MIN_DWELL 40
#define SOLENOID_MAX_DWELL 80

rules.mk
TAP_DANCE_ENABLE = yes
HAPTIC_ENABLE += SOLENOID
keymap.c.zip
(2.23 KiB) Downloaded 14 times

User avatar
LightningXI

24 Jul 2020, 14:50

@pandrew / @tentator - I'm looking to flash my F62 to QMK. Any instructions would be appreciated as I understand that it is currently in its beta form. I also hope that you guys will consider porting the F62 and F77 over to VIA as well ;)

As per Hypersphere's remarks on GH, I just ordered some Superfloss to try flossmodding and some of those nitrile o-rings.

Thank you :)

BucklingSprings

24 Jul 2020, 17:43

I have forced myself back to using my creeky old unicomp for a day. At first it felt incredibly
stiff. I have to "hammer" the keys to work. I realize now how tiring it is for me to type on such
a stiff keyboard.

I am spoiled rotten now. Perhaps typing on a light linear would feel good - but then I have
to put up with the non existent build quality of those.

The biggest compliment I can give to Ellipses Model F reproductions is this: I truly feel sad
that I have put up since '87 (when I had the pleasure to use a Model-F AT for a few weeks)
with nothing but miserable build quality, poor tactility, binding keys and bad typing feel.

Even my Unicomp and my Matias keyboard now feel poorly built and clunky in comparisson. Yes -
the F77 is by far the best keyboard (for typists) that I have ever laid my hands on.

Moving to anything else (that I have) feels like a punishment.

User avatar
Hypersphere

24 Jul 2020, 21:45

@BucklingSprings: I share your enthusiasm for the Ellipse Model F reproductions. However, whereas Cherry mx (and clones) are my least favorite type of switches (although in my estimation silent linears are the best among these), I think there are keyboards employing mx-type switches that have excellent build quality -- Filco comes to mind, for example.

Other boards that I can enjoy in a rotation with my new F62 include Alps-switch boards in excellent condition (such as my Northgate Omnikey 101 with white pine Alps and Leading Edge DC-3014 with blue Alps). Most of all, I still take great pleasure in typing on my HHKB Pro Hybrid Type-S, which I use for quietly taking notes during teleconferences.

Ellipse

24 Jul 2020, 23:05

The custom made solenoids are ready!

Here's a video of the solenoids in action! They sound hefty even before they are attached to a metal case which should add further impact!

Admiral

24 Jul 2020, 23:54

Awesome!

I do have a question about the stabilisers for the keyboard. Is the larger width part the the white stabiliser supposed to be flush with the barrel or above the barrel? I don't want to accidentally press it down too far or try to.

User avatar
Hypersphere

25 Jul 2020, 00:50

@Admiral: The white stabilizer insert should be flush with the top of the barrel. I had difficulty pushing it in all the way until I put a thin coating of SuperLube synthetic oil on the insert -- after that, a firm push and it was properly seated.

However, I recall seeing a post wherein someone said that they were experiencing binding of a stabilized key and they reportedly solved the problem by leaving the stabilizer insert slightly above the top of the barrel. I had the opposite experience -- I got binding unless the top of the insert was flush with the top of the barrel.

Admiral

25 Jul 2020, 03:34

Thanks mate. I'll mess with it tomorrow. Part of me wishes the keys were like the AT where the have the middle third be the size of a 1 unit key and the outside of the key just pressed down to the bottom instead, but I guess that would remove the option of extra keys.

And I don't have any sort of lubricant so hopefully I can get it in all the way without having to hammer it in.

rgleas

25 Jul 2020, 07:12

Admiral wrote:
24 Jul 2020, 23:54
Awesome!

I do have a question about the stabilisers for the keyboard. Is the larger width part the the white stabiliser supposed to be flush with the barrel or above the barrel? I don't want to accidentally press it down too far or try to.
If you do press it down too far, take 2 q-tips. Leave one as is, the other strip off most of the cotton. Push the standard q-tip down as far is it will go, then jam the other one in along side it as far as it will (go with some, but not too much force). Then just grip 'em both, pull up, and wa-la comes out ez pz. I myself, wrecked a barrel in my F77 which I just recently replace, by trying to pry it out in less sensible ways, but I just replaced a full set of keycaps the other day and used Unicomp stabilizers by accident, and they all came out real easy that way.

User avatar
darkcruix

25 Jul 2020, 09:13

I had to replace the controller of my F62 (I am stupid and fried it while playing around with the solenoid <-- always be careful with Solenoid controllers and read the manual), So, the F62 had to be taken apart fully for this process. This was a good chance to place one original spring and flipper from a F122 for a key.
Maybe it is my age and loss of hearing but the difference in sound is marginal at best. One thing I notice is the actuation point. The F122 spring buckles earlier (a tiny bit) and feels therefore softer. This can also be due to its age and might have felt exactly like the new springs when it was still young ;) During normal typing I don't feel the difference at all.
Wanted to share this impression with you.

Admiral

25 Jul 2020, 16:22

Okay I got my keys on, but when I plug in my keyboard nothing registers. Is there a way to see if my computer recognises the keyboard, or is there software I need to download first?

EDIT: Nevermind. I guess I didn't have my USB in all the way? I just twisted it around. :lol:

ash152152

25 Jul 2020, 17:05

Any way to join the qmk beta?

User avatar
Hypersphere

25 Jul 2020, 22:39

Floss Mod: Mint or Regular?

This is not meant to be a facetious question! While searching the net for Oral-B Superfloss, the only kind I could find was mint-flavored. This might be a bit of a stretch, but given that imparting a mint flavor would have to involve a chemical treatment of the floss, it is conceivable that the physical properties of the floss could be altered, possibly affecting the sound/feel of floss-modded springs. If I were a better scientist, I would conduct a controlled experiment to test keyboards modded with mint vs. standard floss. As it turns out, I still have some standard floss on hand (although it dates from one of my earliest keyboard projects back in 2014), so that I do not need to try a minty floss mod just yet.

kmnov2017

26 Jul 2020, 00:11

ash152152 wrote:
25 Jul 2020, 17:05
Any way to join the qmk beta?
message user pandrew

User avatar
Hypersphere

26 Jul 2020, 22:08

USB-C Panel-Mount Connector Installed in my newest Ellipse F62 Keyboard:

For those who might be interested in installing a panel-mount USB-C connector in your standard-case F62 or F77 keyboards, I have posted an easy method with some pics in a new thread in the Workshop Section of DT:

viewtopic.php?f=7&t=24286&p=468806#p468806

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