F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards

User avatar
wobbled

10 Oct 2020, 00:44

Smart move putting those beamsprings on the bottom, wouldn't want them to drop through the floor into the earth and causing a sinkhole.

User avatar
Redmaus
Gotta start somewhere

10 Oct 2020, 08:45

darkcruix wrote:
10 Oct 2020, 00:38
Just recently built the below and I can tell you ... I had to add massive screw anchors into the wall ....
IMG_3755.jpeg
Wonderful presentation, what's that beamspring under the towel? :P

User avatar
darkcruix

10 Oct 2020, 08:54

Redmaus wrote:
10 Oct 2020, 08:45
darkcruix wrote:
10 Oct 2020, 00:38
Just recently built the below and I can tell you ... I had to add massive screw anchors into the wall ....
IMG_3755.jpeg
Wonderful presentation, what's that beamspring under the towel? :P
5251 - it is just to protect it from dust.

BucklingSprings

15 Oct 2020, 16:32

darkcruix wrote:
10 Oct 2020, 00:38
Just recently built the below and I can tell you ... I had to add massive screw anchors into the wall ....
... keyboards from a time where IBM was all about "excellence without compromise".
I think that back then, IBM was still deeply rooted in mechanical engineering
above anything else.

I have seen YouTube videos of people taken apart old IBM mainframes. The
sheer mechanical build quality of these systems just blows me away. No expense
spared. $50 for a custom machined hunk of aluminum to hold the (giant) CPU in place?
No problem - cost accepted.

So much of modern production is only geared towards shaving off as much cost as
possible while still leaving the product "usable" and "acceptable" (to the "uninitiated" - that is).

It seems that Ellipse is one of these few islands left where quality and serviceability
is on equal footing (or better) as cost is.

consensual-penis

16 Oct 2020, 00:04

So I decided to lube wire for the spacebar on my f62 with some 205g0, the result is pretty amazing to me. I know that the pingyness kind of comes with the board, but I was wondering if there was something I could do to reduce it a bit? are there any other areas that might benefit benefit from lube?

Meowmaritus

16 Oct 2020, 01:39

Any idea what the ETA is for extremely late orders, like mine (October 9th, 2020)?

Ellipse

16 Oct 2020, 17:37

Regarding fine tuning the Model F sound please check out the project manual on modelfkeyboards.com/manual for an overview of various mods.

Meowmaritus please do check out the project web site blog for details on the shipping timeline and status. Last month we passed 500 Brand New Model F Keyboards that have shipped so far! In summary:

With the separate shipping option (pay 10 units of $1 increments, more for shipping outside the US - PM or email me to confirm), all classic case keyboards, except True Red and Black, are in stock and can likely ship in 3-6 weeks without the low serial selection (2-3 weeks if you check the low serial/priority check box on the keyboard product page). Same for black case ultra compact F77, ANSI layout only, and regular gray case ultra compact F62, ANSI enter or HHKB split shift with 2U backspace. Unprinted pearl/pebble keys are also in stock, though all other unprinted keys and printed keys will be shipping separately, expected later this year.

For all other options, if you order now it will take several months for delivery. The second container shipment is expected to arrive later this year, by year end.

If you wait a few months until it is in stock, it will take a few months from that point for delivery because of the new orders increasing the backlog between now and then.

User avatar
Scarpia

16 Oct 2020, 20:46

consensual-penis wrote:
16 Oct 2020, 00:04
So I decided to lube wire for the spacebar on my f62 with some 205g0, the result is pretty amazing to me. I know that the pingyness kind of comes with the board, but I was wondering if there was something I could do to reduce it a bit? are there any other areas that might benefit benefit from lube?
I can recommend doing a floss mod - reduces the pinging a ton. Get the correct type of floss and be a bit exacting getting the lengths consistent, and you’ll get a fantastic sounding keyboard.

consensual-penis

17 Oct 2020, 03:28

Scarpia wrote:
16 Oct 2020, 20:46
consensual-penis wrote:
16 Oct 2020, 00:04
So I decided to lube wire for the spacebar on my f62 with some 205g0, the result is pretty amazing to me. I know that the pingyness kind of comes with the board, but I was wondering if there was something I could do to reduce it a bit? are there any other areas that might benefit benefit from lube?
I can recommend doing a floss mod - reduces the pinging a ton. Get the correct type of floss and be a bit exacting getting the lengths consistent, and you’ll get a fantastic sounding keyboard.
I looked at some of the links, I can only find a minty version of the floss, so my search isn't going very well

User avatar
Scarpia

17 Oct 2020, 09:10

consensual-penis wrote:
17 Oct 2020, 03:28
Scarpia wrote:
16 Oct 2020, 20:46
I can recommend doing a floss mod - reduces the pinging a ton. Get the correct type of floss and be a bit exacting getting the lengths consistent, and you’ll get a fantastic sounding keyboard.
I looked at some of the links, I can only find a minty version of the floss, so my search isn't going very well
Minty or not shouldn’t matter as long as it is the Super Floss kind with the stiffer part.

Ellipse

17 Oct 2020, 16:37

Has anyone customized their new Model F F62 / F77 layouts beyond the standard offerings? I'd be interested in seeing what people do to optimize their keyboards.

Please do feel free to share layout screenshots / QMK JSON files / xwhatsit firmware .l files - for the latter two I think they should be compressed to ZIP format before they can be uploaded on the forum.

pandrew

19 Oct 2020, 05:13

To all QMK beta testers:

I have doubled the Model F threshold offset from 12 to 24.
I expect this to be an overall better value. (a few people had to have this modification applied locally)
Everybody, please upgrade to the new firmware version, and let me know in a PM if everything still works reliably.
I don't expect any issues, but if there are any I would like to know as soon as possible.
A few more changes are:
* Switched by default to per-key debouncing
* Bumped the number of threshold bins from 3 to 5
* There is now some support for mods that enable locklights, PM me for details.

User avatar
darkcruix

19 Oct 2020, 11:05

Flashed my primary keyboard an hour ago (F62). So far all is working great

Ellipse

20 Oct 2020, 06:40

The first trial of the full key set dye sublimation was just completed. The keys were sublimated but the results were not on par with previous tests, so they will be doing further testing before mass sublimation can start.

The legend alignment is improved from prior tests but is still not within my tolerances.

Below is the same scan posted earlier of the newly sublimated keys compared with original IBM keys. I have also added scans from many years ago of the same physical keys so everyone can see what four years of typing does to wear down the key top surfaces. As the textured surface wears down, the keys can become more smooth/slippery.

I expect the same to occur with the new production keys as they are the exact same material that IBM used for keys as per the IBM Model F Keyboard production engineer who has been a big help to the project. This is why I am hoping to be able to make as many spare key sets as possible so people can order them with their keyboards and have for future decades.

To see the texture it is best to save the photo or open the image in a new window to zoom in.
texture comparison - new production, original 6110344 Jun 1984 keys, same keys after 4 years - Copy - Copy.jpg
texture comparison - new production, original 6110344 Jun 1984 keys, same keys after 4 years - Copy - Copy.jpg (682.29 KiB) Viewed 922 times
texture comparison - new production, original 6110344 Jun 1984 keys, same keys after 4 years - Copy.jpg
texture comparison - new production, original 6110344 Jun 1984 keys, same keys after 4 years - Copy.jpg (724.91 KiB) Viewed 922 times
texture comparison - new production, original 6110344 Jun 1984 keys, same keys after 4 years.jpg
texture comparison - new production, original 6110344 Jun 1984 keys, same keys after 4 years.jpg (4.67 MiB) Viewed 926 times

User avatar
darkcruix

20 Oct 2020, 14:24

Awesome work! Don't forget to take tons of photos of every step - can't wait to see each progress step and how to get there ;)

User avatar
robo

20 Oct 2020, 15:42

By 'legend alignment' are we talking about the fact that the new keys have the legend jammed up at the top edge of the key?

Ellipse

20 Oct 2020, 15:47

Correct. The later test has adjusted the placement away from the very edge. The first tests were for sublimation quality only, not legend alignment.

cakeanalytics

20 Oct 2020, 18:05

Just making sure, in the final product the F and J keys will have homing bumps, right?

Ellipse

20 Oct 2020, 22:53

Yes confirmed cake. Even with the 500+ keyboards that have been mailed out, the key sets all use finalized keys with nubs for F, J, and 5 keys (3 nubs per key set).

User avatar
Redmaus
Gotta start somewhere

21 Oct 2020, 08:08

Any update on the dark gray printed keycaps?

consensual-penis

22 Oct 2020, 05:42

I ordered one of the smaller cases for my f62, any word on those?

Bschuster

22 Oct 2020, 17:25

So, I just bought my Model F keyboard, and it is an absolute beauty. I ended up getting the F77 and because I wanted the keyboard early, I asked for the beach coating on the keyboard and bought some cheap unicomp white keys. A couple of thoughts on this board.

1. The key feel on this keyboard is really something quite special. I own a Unicomp Model M (manufactured late last year) and while that keyboard is heads and shoulders above everything else, this key feel is at another level. What I can say typing on the side by side is that these keys are a bit lighter, easier to push down, and just more satisfying, but that really doesn't do it justice. Let me see if I can give you an example. Have you ever gone to a grocery store and gotten one of their store-bought cupcakes? If you bite into the icing, it will be sweet and delicious. If you go to a cupcake shop and buy a premium cupcake and bite into that, it will also be sweet and delicious, but there's something else there. Maybe it's the quality of the ingredients, the light airiness, the little bit of extra detail, but regardless it's qualitatively at another level. It's the same but doesn't compare. Typing on the Model F is like that.

2. First off, it cannot be understated how HEAVY this keyboard is. I own a custom keyboard (Tofo 60 Aluminum, Brass Plate) that is certainly hefty, but this size of the F77 is just something unreal. It's like that joke about the old Nokia phones that when you drop it, the floor breaks. Except in this case dropping this keyboard WILL break your floor. Not only that, but it's a bit thinner than I was expecting, meaning that this bad boy is dense. I absolutely love it, because once you place this thing (with the feet on the back), it just won't move.

3. The Unicomp keys "work" on this keyboard, but there's definitely some issues. The longer keys (shift, backspace, enter) don't quite feel as good as the smaller keys, and sometimes get stuck if you don't hit it center enough. I will be happy to switch these out with the new caps when they come later this year. Don't get me wrong, it's functional, but if these were the default keycaps that came with this keyboard, I wouldn't be happy. (Update: I forgot the add the stabilizers to the keys. The longer keys work better now and I think I'm quite happy with it as it.)

4. I also bought the solenoid because I will be the alpha in every webex call I ever have. It's not here yet, but I'm excited to give that a try.

Overall, this is a premium product that's worth it. If this has something that has already caught your eye because you're a fan of buckling spring, but the price scared you, don't be. The value is right for the price.
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Last edited by Bschuster on 22 Oct 2020, 17:38, edited 1 time in total.

Ellipse

22 Oct 2020, 17:28

Nice photos and review bschuster! Are you using Unicomp stabilizer inserts with Unicomp keys? I have found that while all the inserts are compatible, due to variations in tolerances the best experience is with matching like for like.

As a general note, if something was not in stock as part of the first container shipment, it will be on the second of two container shipments for the early bird round, expected to arrive by year end. This includes many of the ultra compact cases.

Red I guess you saw my update on the sublimation posted a couple days ago - there is no update for specific colors. Once sublimation quality meets my specifications then the sublimation will be tested with blue and 60% dark gray.

Bschuster

22 Oct 2020, 17:35

Yep, just installed those because I forgot them. Just did and it's 1000% better. Thank you for the heads up!

cakeanalytics

23 Oct 2020, 01:43

1. If I order the board with "Use your own keys" option, will it still ship with a space bar?
2. Will Model M space bar (and its stabilizer wire) fit the board?

Ellipse

23 Oct 2020, 05:10

Hello cake, glad you are thinking about joining the project! To answer your questions:
1 - no keys or stabilizer inserts are included with the base option you mention, but you can order these from the project web site store. The "extra keys" item is the same price even if you want a space bar. However only 2.2% of keyboards have been chosen with the no keys option so far. Also, you save about $20 or so by ordering the keys as configured with the keyboard as opposed to ordering the keys later on (this is accurately reflected in the customization on each keyboard product page).
2. Yes confirmed. Though if you order my space bar and wire I would be happy to install and fine tune this at no extra charge if you mention it in the order notes. The fine tuning is more of an art than a science and I have had a lot of experience now that 500+ keyboards have gone out so far!

e1ven

23 Oct 2020, 10:11

Does anyone have a photo of the inside of a Ultra Compact Modern Case version of the F62?
I'm interested in getting a sense of how much space there might be in and around components, in terms of adding mods.

The closest I could find was from an old youtube video, and while the case and board are both shown, they aren't near each other so it's hard to get sense of the any amount of space there might be.

I'd expect it's rather minimal (That is the point of the ultra compact variant afterall), but I'm curious how much might be.
The fullsize F62 obviously has a lot more unused space, but it may be too big for my current use-case.
Thanks!
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Ellipse

Yesterday, 19:45

You are correct that there is no extra space - it was designed to be the smallest possible design that still used all the same parts (except bottom inner assembly plate which was made less wide and with feet as shown in the screenshot). You can see that there is a little room underneath the inner assembly on the back side but it is not large enough for too much. What were you thinking of doing in the ultra compact case?

If you wanted a solenoid you could probably mount the solenoid externally (3M VHB tape or drill a hole in the case and use screws - the solenoid has tapped holes to accept M2.5 screws.

consensual-penis

Yesterday, 20:29

Wait, will the ultra compact case work with the standard assembly? I have a standard f62 and also bought an ultra compact case, will I have any issues?

Toastrack128

Yesterday, 20:33

Hello, everyone! Long time lurker here; just wanted to thank Ellipse for the astounding amount of effort and dedication it must have taken to get these keyboards designed, tested, and manufactured. I am the proud owner of a Model F77 which I'm using right now to type this, my first post on Deskthority! This is a fantastic keyboard, smooth, responsive, and most importantly LOUD! :lol:

Have requested access to the QMK beta so that I can program my F77 with space cadet shifts and a few other nifty tricks I use on my other keyboards. Hope everyone is keeping safe. :)

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