F62+F77 orders now open! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards

Takashi

03 Feb 2021, 09:38

*cries in swe iso*

I guess the ISO layouts will come after all the US/ANSI have been delivered?

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shampoo

03 Feb 2021, 15:03

Ellipse wrote:
02 Feb 2021, 05:29
Dye sublimation update: The factory expects to send approximately 200 sets of each type (~200 ANSI US, ~200 HHKB, ~200 Mac) this week!
That's excellent news!

I am serial 503.. So I am thinking my chances of making this batch are probably slim.

But kudos to those who got in earlier and big kudos to Ellipse for getting this far. Really impressive. The amount of work involved must be incredible.

I am tempted to get another keyboard but I think my wife will kill me.

Thanks again!

J

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shampoo

03 Feb 2021, 15:07

I have a silly question regarding those that bought the Kishsaver..

It clearly doesn't have any arrow keys.. How are you moving your cursor around ? Just using the mouse ?

xyzzy

03 Feb 2021, 15:15

If you get the HHKB layout you can use FN + [ - ; - ' - / (up - left - right - down) for arrow keys.

Or you could remap them, see here: viewtopic.php?p=468593#p468593

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shampoo

03 Feb 2021, 16:01

xyzzy wrote:
03 Feb 2021, 15:15
If you get the HHKB layout you can use FN + [ - ; - ' - / (up - left - right - down) for arrow keys.

Or you could remap them, see here: viewtopic.php?p=468593#p468593
Thanks. So is that what most people are doing or are they just somehow living without the arrow keys ? Just curious who these keyboards are really designed for ? People who want something really small and can live with remap or function keys or people who just never use arrow keys.

troglotype

03 Feb 2021, 19:48

shampoo wrote:
03 Feb 2021, 15:07
I have a silly question regarding those that bought the Kishsaver..

It clearly doesn't have any arrow keys.. How are you moving your cursor around ? Just using the mouse ?
I use the inverted T cluster made up of the three modifiers and the shift key (linked above by xyzzy). When pressed once the keys function as arrow keys, when pressed together with another key they function as modifiers / shift key. For me that works perfectly. I have come to prefer it to the inverted T cluster I have on the F77 which has me reach farther.

I use a Topre keyboard (a Leopold FC660C) when I am in video conferences / teaching online (for obvious reasons...) and that keyboard has the inverted T cluster in almost the same spot, just a bit more to the right. The two keyboard layouts feel very similar and I never hit the wrong key after switching from one to the other.

Disclaimer: I spend a lot of time in text editors (Vim or Emacs with evil-mode), so I don't navigate with the arrow keys most of the time, but when I do, it doesn't feel weird or inconvenient at all.

RaoulRod

04 Feb 2021, 02:07

shampoo wrote:
03 Feb 2021, 16:01
xyzzy wrote:
03 Feb 2021, 15:15
If you get the HHKB layout you can use FN + [ - ; - ' - / (up - left - right - down) for arrow keys.

Or you could remap them, see here: viewtopic.php?p=468593#p468593
Thanks. So is that what most people are doing or are they just somehow living without the arrow keys ? Just curious who these keyboards are really designed for ? People who want something really small and can live with remap or function keys or people who just never use arrow keys.
I got a 62 before my 77 came in and I have to say that getting used to the HHKB fn key + [ ; ' / doesn’t take long at all. Using fn + a s d for the audio controls also feels very natural too.

Even with the 77 I will occasionally use the fn key setup for the arrow keys.

cods

04 Feb 2021, 03:01

xyzzy wrote:
03 Feb 2021, 15:15
If you get the HHKB layout you can use FN + [ - ; - ' - / (up - left - right - down) for arrow keys.

Or you could remap them, see here: viewtopic.php?p=468593#p468593
I'll be doing these and working out which is best for me.

clickclack

04 Feb 2021, 13:01

I've done a similar mod to my HHKB-layout board.

I've fitted Unicomp 1.25 U keys to make that inv. T. The stem spacing is perfect for it. It's a shame there isn't a 1.5 U key with an offset stem to replace the Fn key. I might try making my own by hollowing-out a 1.5 U and gluing in a Model M two-part key's stem.
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Scarpia

04 Feb 2021, 18:38

clickclack wrote:
04 Feb 2021, 13:01
I've done a similar mod to my HHKB-layout board.

I've fitted Unicomp 1.25 U keys to make that inv. T. The stem spacing is perfect for it. It's a shame there isn't a 1.5 U key with an offset stem to replace the Fn key. I might try making my own by hollowing-out a 1.5 U and gluing in a Model M two-part key's stem.

arrows.jpg
Order a blank stepped caps lock key from Unicomp and put it as the shift key, that’s what I use and it’s exactly what you’re looking for.

clickclack

04 Feb 2021, 20:18

I've tried that but I don't like the way it doesn't line up perfectly with the 'down' key. Actually, i mistyped in the previous message and it's actually a 1.25 U key I'd want to hollow out. That would give (I think) the same gap to the left and right of 'up' and to the left of 'left'.

clickclack

04 Feb 2021, 20:21

While I'm counting fractional units, something that's presumably part of Model M/F lore but I don't know: what's the deal with the off-centre stem on 1.5 U keys? I notice that the 1.5 Us on the bottom row compensate for it to the left and right edges but don't seem to inside the 1.5, 1, 1.5 U clusters to each side of space. There seem to be different gaps to the left and right of the 1 U key and the three chimneys are equally spaced (I think). Was that intentional to help those like me with a yin for 1.25 U keys (which become perfectly spaced)?, or what?

clickclack

04 Feb 2021, 20:27

Something like this:
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Ellipse

04 Feb 2021, 20:55

Interesting customization clickclack!

Dye sub update: the very first production sublimated key sets have shipped! Here's the factory report on the current shipment:

Approved production sets:
Base sets: 201
HKKB sets: 202
MAC sets: 203
0 Ins 1U key (included on F77 keyboards configured with a printed new Model F key set): 225 keys

B STOCK - Old artwork/non-approved alignment:
Base sets: 50
HKKB and MAC sets: 25 each

As noted earlier the purpose of selling the B Stock is to cover the thousands of dollars in additional costs related to dye sub and express shipping of sublimated keys, so it will be sold at higher cost than a good quality set. The benefit is that you get a shipping priority (get your B Stock key set/sets months earlier) and you help support the project a little more through helping to cover the cost overruns. I think allowing some people the option to help the project a little more helps avoid having to pass along price increases across the board (pun intended!). Same thing with pricing accessories and extra key sets higher to keep the base keyboard price as close to the original price as possible.

B Stock keys are all sold as is, with sublimation defects (non-approved, noticeably off alignment for some keys, slightly thicker/bolder artwork).

Please email me if interested - pricing for the regular ANSI US key set will be a $30 premium per set to the regular $69 price ($99 total per set). Shipping costs just for keys and any other small in stock accessories will be free in the US, $16 in Canada and $20 worldwide. The HHKB and Mac sets will have an $11 premium ($35 total) and have the same shipping costs. And as noted before, no one can order any of the production sets in this batch for immediate shipment - they are all going to those who have been waiting.

After the keys are in hand I can start taking orders for the B stock.

Starting now with this post, I will be taking reservations for B Stock by email (not by PM or forum post) - first come first served for the 50 sets - will be based on email received timestamp. Please let me know the number of sets of each type that you will be ordering.

To keep things (relatively!) simple, upgrades of previous key set orders are not available - has to be a new order.

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PhineasRex

06 Feb 2021, 00:06

Ellipse, do the HHKB sets that are shipping out include the HHKB front-printed keys or will those be done later?

Ellipse

06 Feb 2021, 01:31

Nope just the HHKB 6 key set, the Mac 6 key standard set (with the words printed, not with icons), and the regular US ANSI set are in the first batch. After CNY there will be more batches sent with the various other keys.

elcano

06 Feb 2021, 06:39

My F77 is installed in the main desktop in my house. This computer is shared by me, wife and my two teen sons.

They use it, but from time to time they ask about how to use the Function Keys (they originally assumed that it was impossible to enter F-keys in this keyboard), entering the accented characters used in Spanish and yeah, they wonder about the Cap Lock status, especially when they enter a password incorrectly a few times in a row (it happens to me too :D ).

For the Functions Keys and accented characters, I went with a very ugly solution: added labels to the layer modifiers keys until they learn them. Sorry about them. They are hideous.

And for the Cap Locks, I followed the guidance from darkcruix and his awesome Model F manual to add LED lights to my keyboard. These are the parts that I purchased in eBay for the project:
  • 2x3x4mm LED Diodes Mix
  • 30cm Female To Female Dupont Wire Jumper Cable
  • Lot of Mixed Resistors 510 430 360 330 300 270 150 130
I already had heat shrink tubing, soldering equipment and the electrical tape that you see in the pictures. I didn't have hot glue. I should have purchased a hot glue gun before starting the project.

Below is an image of the assembled cable after installing in the back panel, but before installing in the front. The Caps Lock wire (coming from pin 5) and LED are yellow (but the LED light looks a little orange). The Num Lock cable connected to pin 3 and the LED are green, but the wire looks blue in the picture.

I added a 330 resistor to the Caps Locks LED and a 360 resistor to the Num Lock LED. This last value was a bad decision. Since the green LED is 25% more brilliant than the yellow LED, I should have used a resistor 25% higher in value instead of 10% higher.

Image

Here you can see the Caps Lock LED (yellow) located between the Caps Lock and Tabs key:
Image

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And here you can see the Num Lock LED (green) located between the Right-Alt and the Num Lock Keys:
Image

The result in functional, and even beautiful in the case of the Caps Lock LED, if you are ok with the orange tint. However, I find the green LED too intense. I think that the low value resistor contributes, but the other factor is the angle of the observer. Since it is located in the vertical division between to keys, I can see the LED directly. I need to find a way to locate the LED in a way that I only see the indirect light.

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Last edited by elcano on 08 Feb 2021, 13:40, edited 1 time in total.

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Elrick

06 Feb 2021, 09:08

Pity no leds were ever supplied with the F77 keyboard :( .

Would have been nice having that rather basic feature, especially for how much it costs.

elcano

06 Feb 2021, 16:57

Well, IBM fixed that design flaw only when they launched the Model M. They added cost and complexity in one side and reduced it in the other, sadly.

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zrrion

06 Feb 2021, 17:55

I wouldn't say not having lock lights is a flaw considering there's no good reason to actually toggle any of them.

Bjerrk

06 Feb 2021, 18:08

Just received my New Model F (F77), and I have to say it is gorgeous and the keyfeel is incredibly crisp.

However, I have a problem with a few keys not registering (M, ,(comma), down arrow, both ctrls, space, ...), even though the keys seem correctly seated and buckle just fine.

The keyboard has the QMK Firmware, so I was of the impression that calibration should be automatic.

Any ideas?

Bjerrk

06 Feb 2021, 18:30

After un-plugging and re-plugging the keyboard a couple of times, none of the keys register. I'm a bit at a loss.

The device still does show up correctly in the system log (dmesg) when plugged in.

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darkcruix

06 Feb 2021, 19:18

Bjerrk wrote:
06 Feb 2021, 18:30
After un-plugging and re-plugging the keyboard a couple of times, none of the keys register. I'm a bit at a loss.

The device still does show up correctly in the system log (dmesg) when plugged in.
Can you open the case and check if there is an issue with the solder contacts? They might touch the case. Try typing when the case is open...

RaoulRod

06 Feb 2021, 19:21

Bjerrk wrote:
06 Feb 2021, 18:30
After un-plugging and re-plugging the keyboard a couple of times, none of the keys register. I'm a bit at a loss.

The device still does show up correctly in the system log (dmesg) when plugged in.
I am guessing you have a compact case. In that situation, this is a known issue with the ultra compact cases. You will need to open it and put electrical tape on the ribbon to keep it from grounding out on the inside of the case.

Bjerrk

06 Feb 2021, 19:39

Thanks, guys! I have the "traditional" F77. I tried with the case off - same problem. Put some extra tape on the solder contacts to no avail.

However, I think I made some progress: with the "Keypress Monitor" of the QMK utility, I can see that pressing a key produces lots of extraneous keypresses.
E.g. pressing M ends up activating most of the bottom row as well.

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darkcruix

06 Feb 2021, 19:46

Bjerrk wrote:
06 Feb 2021, 19:39
Thanks, guys! I have the "traditional" F77. I tried with the case off - same problem. Put some extra tape on the solder contacts to no avail.

However, I think I made some progress: with the "Keypress Monitor" of the QMK utility, I can see that pressing a key produces lots of extraneous keypresses.
E.g. pressing M ends up activating most of the bottom row as well.
Sounds like a short in the row ... can you see a short of two contacts where the ribbon cable is soldered on?

Bjerrk

06 Feb 2021, 19:58

I am beginning to suspect that the capacitive sensing threshold is just generally too low. Keys register somewhat randomly all over the place, when other keys are pressed, it isn't really limited to one row.

Edit: seems to work flawlessly right now, after disconnecting some other keyboards from the PC. Strange, but I'll let you know how it works out.

elcano

06 Feb 2021, 23:13

Aren't you using a USB hub? If you do, make sure that it is a powered one. I was having ghost keys registered with an unpowered USB hub.

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darkcruix

06 Feb 2021, 23:16

As part of the Model F Technical Manual Project, I am working on a table that contains the connectors, protocols and language sets of the variants. I have collected most of the data, but I can't figure out the details for some models, like our beloved 4704 Models. What I have so far is shown below, I would like to understand the protocol of the 4704 with its original controller. I hope someone can help.
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AlpsComeback

06 Feb 2021, 23:40

oh wow, I've been using a non-powered USB hub this entire time and have had some ghosting issues. They're >99% gone, but I will definitely get a powered one now
elcano wrote:
06 Feb 2021, 23:13
Aren't you using a USB hub? If you do, make sure that it is a powered one. I was having ghost keys registered with an unpowered USB hub.

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