[GB] GMK ThinkCaps // Nov. 16 to Dec. 13, 2020

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voodoo6k

14 May 2020, 20:41

The main motivation behind combining the ISO and icon modifier kits was that offering both icon+text and icon-only ISO options would require 4 vertical Enter keys in total (2 blue + 2 grey) to retain compatibility with the RGB modifiers.

We decided on icon-only (for now...) because that's how IBM, Cherry and most other manufacturers did it, historically. Thus moving ISO to the icon modifier kit was logical (and helps meeting MOQ for both). In addition, moving it there allows us to include more keys such as Alt Gr, which I like seeing.

In hindsight, it does look like we're "forcing" the icon modifiers onto the international users. I'm trying to find another solution. Sorry about the bad wording, and thanks for the picture!

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abrahamstechnology

14 May 2020, 23:58

I wish there was a mechanical Preferred Pro with these on.

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voodoo6k

15 May 2020, 05:52

Muirium wrote:
13 May 2020, 10:36
Any idea what the pricing is likely to be? I’m not into the esoteric kits with surveys. A base, icon mods and maybe spacebars would do for me.

Also: this is community run, outside of Massdrop? Where would it ship from? Europe hopefully, like GMK itself and most of us at DT!

Also also: how about discount pricing for volume orders? I could see a friend joining me in getting these, doubling up the base kit and then some.
I can't share any details on pricing yet, but my approach is always to push for the lowest price.

This is community run thru vendors. So far we have are TKC (US), CandyKeys (EU) and yakk.shop (Canada), which is myself. We're looking to add a couple more vendors in Asia/Oceania.

I'm open to discount pricing for volume orders, but a couple of sets is not really meeting that criterion. Unless you meant doubling the total orders? :shock:

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Muirium
µ

15 May 2020, 11:59

No, I’m the very definition of small fry. 2 is the max you’d get from me. But the idea is to encourage as many folk to increase their orders as possible. You may be pleasantly surprised what effect sharing that information might achieve!

Re: ISO Returns and icon mods. I’d put an ISO Return into each one of the ISO language kits, which are going to ISO users by definition. Icon mods are very much my thing, but ISO isn’t and the two just aren’t ultimately related. If you can pop just one ISO Return into the common kit, you’d make a lot of DTers happy. I see there’s a lot of niche stuff in there already. You really sure about all that?

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voodoo6k

15 May 2020, 16:04

I don't think that makes much sense to the vendors. I can already see the loopholes in that scheme, where strangers group together to get a discount.

I would be more inclined to do price tiers based on total sales (massdrop style), but most vendors aren't on board with that either. I think the current trend has been to add extra keys when a group buy is exceedingly successful.

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Darkshado

15 May 2020, 16:35

voodoo6k, out of curiosity (because I don't think that'd ever hit MOQ) since you're also Canadian: does GMK have molds for a proper French Canadian set?

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voodoo6k

15 May 2020, 19:27

I don't know. I suppose so. Canadian Multilingual or French Legacy? ;)

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depletedvespene

15 May 2020, 19:55

voodoo6k wrote:
15 May 2020, 19:27
I don't know. I suppose so. Canadian Multilingual or French Legacy? ;)
I bet that Cherry never bothered to make a set for the Canadian Multilingual standard, but DID have one for the Canadian bilingual (down to misnaming it "Canadian French").

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photekq
Cherry Picker

15 May 2020, 20:29

I'd love to be proven wrong, but the only Canadian layout keyboards made by Cherry that we've seen pictures of are some NCRs with dyesub caps :

G81-3077SAU
Spoiler:
Image
Image
and this weird G81-3007SAU which came up the other day
Spoiler:
Image
Image
I've never seen any pictures of a doubleshot Cherry board in Canadian layout though, which are the only ones relevant to GMK.

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voodoo6k

15 May 2020, 22:52

Would international users be offended if we had only dual legends for the euro kit? GMK Pulse is an example:
Spoiler:
Image

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depletedvespene

15 May 2020, 23:58

voodoo6k wrote:
15 May 2020, 22:52
Would international users be offended if we had only dual legends for the euro kit? GMK Pulse is an example:
Spoiler:
Image
Ew, EW and EW.

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voodoo6k

16 May 2020, 00:54

As we say in french:

"Asking a question is answering it" :lol:

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Muirium
µ

16 May 2020, 12:35

For certain questions, yes!

What languages are you thinking of covering? And, where the controversy kicks in, grouped into which sets?

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depletedvespene

16 May 2020, 16:21

Muirium wrote:
16 May 2020, 12:35
For certain questions, yes!

What languages are you thinking of covering? And, where the controversy kicks in, grouped into which sets?
Besides the default English (US) logical/national layout (*), many GMK custom sets add (complete or partial) support for the English (UK) layout, either in the base kit itself or in a child kit.

Some GMK sets have a child kit with "international" keys, that add the missing keycaps to complete a few national layouts more; those are usually called "international", "Norde" or "Nordeuk", and typically cover German, Danish, Norwegian and Swedish/Finnish, and perhaps English (UK) as well (as is done in the example above). RARELY, Icelandic and Portuguese (!) are added to the mix as well.


To complicate things further, some designers think that "tertiary legends look bad" (**) and intentionally omit them from their "international" kit, with the added "benefit" of making a smaller, and therefore cheaper, kit. Sure, why have the keys <>, <>| and <>\ when you can conflate them into a single <>? I mean, who could possibly care about technical correctness?

It does not help matters that the "regular" English (UK) layout only has two (¦ and ) and you can pretty much get away with omitting them (the former for a good reason; the latter, not so much), a strategy that then gets extended to other layouts where such omission is actively hurtful and outright inexcusable (German, Spanish, Italian, Iberoamerican, (old) Yugoslavian, etc.).

Profiles like SP and the up-and-coming KAT commit this out of "visual necessity", but, truly, in GMK keycaps (or, for that matter, on Model F/M ones), there simply is no good reason ($$$ doesn't count) to omit whatever tertiary and quaternary legends a given national layout might use.

This is the undisputable, objective truth (YMMV).




(*) So default, many people have trouble realizing it's just one possible national layout out of quite a few.

(**) Some people think this derives from the SP aesthetics, where single legends are centered on each keycap and even putting two legends (base and Shift) looks forced.

User avatar
depletedvespene

16 May 2020, 16:33

photekq wrote:
15 May 2020, 20:29
I'd love to be proven wrong, but the only Canadian layout keyboards made by Cherry that we've seen pictures of are some NCRs with dyesub caps :

G81-3077SAU
Spoiler:
Image
Image
and this weird G81-3007SAU which came up the other day
Spoiler:
Image
Image
I've never seen any pictures of a doubleshot Cherry board in Canadian layout though, which are the only ones relevant to GMK.
Stating the obvious here, but this is neither the Canadian bilingual nor the Canadian multilingual layout. The letters with diacritics barely even share positions with either. Other than these pictures, I didn't know this layout even existed.

I'd like to see more of this, so I can document this variation of this "English (US) + basic French" (?) layout.

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Muirium
µ

16 May 2020, 17:02

I’ve no interest in the UK layout myself. I strongly prefer ANSI (real left Shift!) and Macs are pretty much US layout here anyway, so I’ve long been trained on it. Quote and double quote on the same key to the right, @ on 2 and no mysterious broken pipe glyph anywhere to be found:

Image

When you’re already used to that (from the PowerBook days) ANSI US is a simple step indeed!

As for non English language support, I notice you didn’t even touch on the big one: French. Boy, AZERTY and its inverted number row is a trip! I got a set for an oddball side project in Round 4 grey, as discounted leftovers from 7bit. So distinct! If I were French I bet I’d insist on their perfection!

Image

Note Apple’s use of icon mods on all ISO layouts. I’m deep into icon mods myself, and use them on ANSI too. (Apple does not.) They look better to me. As well as saving the costs of duplicating many different languages’ worth of modifiers spelled out. (Which even Apple seems to have forgotten lately with those additional, needless Control, Command and Option text labels.)

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depletedvespene

16 May 2020, 17:44

Muirium wrote:
16 May 2020, 17:02
I’ve no interest in the UK layout myself. I strongly prefer ANSI (real left Shift!) and Macs are pretty much US layout here anyway, so I’ve long been trained on it. Quote and double quote on the same key to the right, @ on 2 and no mysterious broken pipe glyph anywhere to be found:

Image

When you’re already used to that (from the PowerBook days) ANSI US is a simple step indeed!
Speaks of the goodness of ANSI keyboards. Shows a picture of an ISO keyboard. :lol:


Jokes aside, it's simultaneously soothing and disturbing that the Golden Rule of Apple and Keyboards still holds true to this day:

If an Apple keyboard does something differently, assume it's wrong unless there is proof to the contrary.

Still using the indecent anorexic ISO Enter key. Still moving the corner alpha key to the ISO extra position. Still not complying with the specification for the English (UK) national layout.


But at least THIS MacBook Pro has gotten back a true Esc key (even though it might be a horrendous key to type on), off the dreadbar it had been stuck into.




Muirium wrote:
16 May 2020, 17:02
As for non English language support, I notice you didn’t even touch on the big one: French. Boy, AZERTY and its inverted number row is a trip! I got a set for an oddball side project in Round 4 grey, as discounted leftovers from 7bit. So distinct! If I were French I bet I’d insist on their perfection!

Image
No one in his right mind is going to defend the objectively bad French layouts, both of them. And I have in the past voiced my opinion. And I have in the past proposed a better alternative.

But let me repeat now that, contrary to popular opinion, I say that moving A, Z, Q and W around is NOT their worst misfeature.

With all that said, it should surprise nobody that Apple has ALSO gotten wrong the French (Belgium) layout, as the picture above proves.

And it's not that Apple is unable to actually produce a keyboard with no errors on the intended national layout — they DO get the Spanish (Spain) national layout right (even though to this day, the Apple operating system defaults to the older, wrong "Spanish" layout of their own making).

Muirium wrote:
16 May 2020, 17:02
Note Apple’s use of icon mods on all ISO layouts. I’m deep into icon mods myself, and use them on ANSI too. (Apple does not.) They look better to me. As well as saving the costs of duplicating many different languages’ worth of modifiers spelled out. (Which even Apple seems to have forgotten lately with those additional, needless Control, Command and Option text labels.)
Icon modifiers is about the only thing that Apple actually does well in its keyboards... so of course it's starting to shed that off.

User avatar
photekq
Cherry Picker

17 May 2020, 04:59

depletedvespene wrote:
16 May 2020, 16:33
Stating the obvious here, but this is neither the Canadian bilingual nor the Canadian multilingual layout. The letters with diacritics barely even share positions with either. Other than these pictures, I didn't know this layout even existed.

I'd like to see more of this, so I can document this variation of this "English (US) + basic French" (?) layout.
A member here got the one with orange caps, but I've never seen anyone post the former one; those pictures are from the eBay sale. I'd love to see more of them as well. I'm aware it doesn't fall under either of those established Canadian layouts, but both examples were sold from Canada, and I can't think of many other places with French+English layout. That's why I called it 'Canadian layout'. If anyone knows a more specific name for that layout I'd love to know.

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PlastikSchnittstelle

18 May 2020, 12:46

photekq wrote:
12 May 2020, 23:05
I love the design of the set. I'd absolutely buy multiple sets, but there's one thing niggling at me: I'd love to see A-profile (R5) winkeyless bottom row support.
YES, would you PLEASE add R5 and R0 to this GB?
This GB will definately hit MOQ, I'm sure.
If you add an R5/R0 kit, I'll offer to help with renderings.
Here is the stuff that I render.
Though looking at the renders I think you really don't need any help, they look perfect to me.

User avatar
Muirium
µ

18 May 2020, 12:53

Translation: please add extra obscure stuff that will increase the price and, uh, definitely sell more orders I guess?

Motivated reasoning is a wonderful thing!

I’m not against more choice. But I’m absolutely against forcing everyone to pay for it in the basic kit. There’s a real balance to be struck between extra niceness and extra cost. The weird stuff (like my own beloved icon mods!) can live in extra kits, and fail there alone, if need be.

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ddrfraser1

18 May 2020, 17:28

Muirium wrote:
18 May 2020, 12:53
Translation: please add extra obscure stuff that will increase the price and, uh, definitely sell more orders I guess?

Motivated reasoning is a wonderful thing!

I’m not against more choice. But I’m absolutely against forcing everyone to pay for it in the basic kit. There’s a real balance to be struck between extra niceness and extra cost. The weird stuff (like my own beloved icon mods!) can live in extra kits, and fail there alone, if need be.
Agreed. A lot of this seems nitpicky. I think it's a pretty good set as is.

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voodoo6k

27 Jun 2020, 00:56

PlastikSchnittstelle wrote:
18 May 2020, 12:46
photekq wrote:
12 May 2020, 23:05
I love the design of the set. I'd absolutely buy multiple sets, but there's one thing niggling at me: I'd love to see A-profile (R5) winkeyless bottom row support.
YES, would you PLEASE add R5 and R0 to this GB?
This GB will definately hit MOQ, I'm sure.
If you add an R5/R0 kit, I'll offer to help with renderings.
Here is the stuff that I render.
Though looking at the renders I think you really don't need any help, they look perfect to me.
Sorry, I completely missed your post.

I'm afraid we can't really "add" R5 and R0. The set would have to be completely revamped. It's also not very cost effective if we have to duplicate a bunch of R1 keys to R0.

I'm betting on a couple of kits to be compatible with other GMK sets, icon and RGB mods, namely, and 112344 sculpt is vastly more popular at this point.

Thanks for offering your help, though!

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voodoo6k

27 Jun 2020, 01:01

I updated the kits according to the feedback I recieved. Feel free to check out the OP.

The main changes are:
  • ISO support in base
  • Standalone ortho & 40's set (250 MOQ)
  • Some (Shift) keys moved to Extension kit
  • Added keys to Spacebars, Numpad, Accent... minor changes

User avatar
Mr. J

02 Jul 2020, 16:58

Such a great set! I recently bought a full ISO-DE GMK WoB Kit, just to have the german keys 😂 Looking so much forward to this set! I hope I did not miss the start as I am not so active anymore here at DT...

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voodoo6k

02 Jul 2020, 21:05

Mr. J wrote:
02 Jul 2020, 16:58
Such a great set! I recently bought a full ISO-DE GMK WoB Kit, just to have the german keys 😂 Looking so much forward to this set! I hope I did not miss the start as I am not so active anymore here at DT...
If you stay subscribed to this thread, then you should get all the important updates.

Cheers ;)

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voodoo6k

14 Jul 2020, 00:25

Update:

Our US vendor wants me to gather more data on the preferred kits. If interested, please fill out this form:
Sorry if you've already filled out the old forms... but please take the time to also fill out this new one!

Thanks :)

User avatar
voodoo6k

17 Nov 2020, 23:08

I edited the OP with the group buy info. Open from Nov. 16 to Dec. 13, 2020.

The TKL and Ortho & 40's base sets are at 500 and 250 MOQ, respectively.
We priced the kits more aggressively since some of them are compatible with other GMK/Cherry keysets.

Let's see hat happens...

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