OPTIONS CHANGED- REVOTE! Lubricant choice for groupbuy poll.

What lubricant are we using for the groupbuy?

GPL103
5
13%
RO-59
8
21%
Both
25
66%
 
Total votes: 38

User avatar
fossala
Elite +1

30 Jul 2012, 20:03

Please can people who will join the groupbuy vote! Others please just comment below.

Thanks to limmy for some info.
Limmy wrote:So, you guys want to get into lube business!
I have tried
oils : GPL100, 103, 105
grease : 240AZ, GPL201, 203, 205, 226

GPL100:
100 worked just fine in normal switches. However, it may have durability issue because it evaporates quicker, but 100 is the oil with least viscosity so it doesn't change the feel as much as other oils.

I have been running an experiment on durability of GPL100 over 2 months. So far about 30% weight loss has occurred over two months. I spread 0.10g of GPL100 in an open container and I tracked the weight over two months. After two months, there is 0.07g left. The scale used in the measurement is a cheap Chinese jeweler's scale, so the accuracy could be an issue, but I see downward trending in many measurements so I am pretty certain that 100 evaporates in normal temperatures.

GPL105 and 106:
105 worked fine too but if applied more than necessary switches felt slightly sluggish. 106 variant was once popular in OTD, so I know 106 would also be usable if applied sparingly.

GPL103:
I have 103 at hand, but haven't used it for long enough to say they work well. However, I hear success stories from other users so I think it works just as I expected. I was the one of few people who provided information on Krytox for members of KBDMania and I believe I have contributed quite a lot in the choice of Krytox oil(GPL103) in recent group buy in KBDMania.

Krytox grease:
From my experience, I could get impressive results by applying thin coat of Krytox grease and applying oil on top of the coat. Grease adheres to surface and holds the oil in place, while if only oil is used the oil tend to run. Running oil is less of an issue in Cherry switches because the sliders are in the slider housing hence holding the oil quite nicely due to capillary action between the slider and the housing. Running oil was more of an issue with Topre switches because most of the slider is exposed.

Container:
Luer lock oiler (sold in 10) + luer lock cap(sold in 50) See http://jensenglobal.com/
32G blunt needle (32G may be too narrow for some because you really have to squeeze to get some oil out out that needle. 30G might work better. Sold in 50 or 20) See http://jensenglobal.com/ or search "32G blunt needle" on ebay
2012-06-27 12.32.04.jpg
Overall:
I think GPL103 is a nice choice. Just be careful not to over apply. I don't think brush container is a good choice because I feel using the brush will apply more than necessary oil. (You want thin coat) I think precision oiler with thin needle(greater than 30G) is better choice.
See this thread for The_Eds arguments for using other lubes/greases.
http://deskthority.net/marketplace-f11/ ... tml#p69934
Last edited by fossala on 02 Aug 2012, 22:03, edited 3 times in total.

cinch

30 Jul 2012, 20:09

based on this information it's nearly impossible for me to have an informed oppinion on which lube to order.
i'm interested in one that lasts long (like a couple of years before it would require relubing), doesn't slow movement much, easy to remove (if required) and doesn't damage/alter the materials.
Last edited by cinch on 30 Jul 2012, 20:12, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
fossala
Elite +1

30 Jul 2012, 20:11

I don't see how we are going to get any more info. If you have some available please share.
2 of these seem to be what the koreans use/used to use. 1 is what a member here uses.

cinch

30 Jul 2012, 20:30

some stuff i found. no idea. i'm leaning towards RO-59.
sixty wrote:Sadly there is no such thing as an easily available really good lubricant. I tried the commonly available dry lube and variants, none of them are as good as that RO59 stuff. Sadly it seems to be only for sale in Japan. Its an American brand, but the water based lube for plastic is not for sale through their American site.
sordna wrote:I think so, these dry lubricants use a liquid as a transport mechanism, and then need to dry, leaving the teflon bonded to the surface. The RO59 site even says you need to heat the area for 30 minutes for the bond to happen, otherwise let it dry overnight. My guess is isopropyl-based will dry much faster, and won't be harmful to plastics like acetone.
korean lube wiki (maybe someone can translate or summarize): http://wiki.hijava.net/wiki/index.php/% ... 4%ED%99%9C

http://www.iomania.co.kr/frontstore/ite ... _id=iomall
Limmy wrote:I tried Krytox GPL100 on the metal leaf and it seems to work pretty well without changing the feel that much. If you want to try some exotic / top of the line lube I would recommend you try Krytox GPL100. Search Krytox GPL100 in ebay and you should be able to get some in small quantity. Victorinox multi-tool oil seems to work well too, but it seems to change the feel of the switch a bit. The silicone oil makes the lubed switches a bit softer. I personally like the softer and more dampened feel, but it is my personal preference. Both oils are pretty easy to get, so you might want to try both and see what you like.

User avatar
Acanthophis

30 Jul 2012, 20:36

I think either lube will be fine (at least for me).
To pick the best of those 3... I have no clue, tbh.

User avatar
DanGWanG

30 Jul 2012, 21:01

Voted for GPL 103 since that's what's being used on my KMAC. It feels awesome, but I have no means of comparison. There's also another step that KBD members typically do, and that's applying 75W90 (with LSD additives) gear oil to the tips of the spring, a very low conservative dip. But maybe Limmy can explain more on that...

BTW, can I partake in the group buy? Or are we Americans not allowed? =)

Limmy

30 Jul 2012, 21:09

Ro-59 has been available in Korea for quite some time. It seems to me that Krytox took over and I don't see people going back to RO-59.

Here are cons and pros for each choices.

Pros of RO-59:
RO-59 are way cheaper than Krytox (about 3000JPY for 260ml http://www.tafco.co.jp/RO-59_260ml.html )
Fail proof

Cons of RO-59:
Have to wait before it cures.
Questionable shelf life. (similar PFTE coating lube Molykote D-96 has 9 months shelf life. Google Molykote D-96 shelf life.)


Pros of Krytox:
Better performance compared to RO-59
Long shelf life (after 40 years of storage performance going strong)

Cons of Krytox:
Expensive (500g costs more than $200. Specific density of Krytox is close to 2, so volume wise it is going to be around 260ml)
Since it is in liquid form, it may evaporate. (Thinnest oil GPL100 may have this issue, but GPL103 should perform much better in this regard.)
User has to pay attention not to over apply.


Both RO-59 and Krytox are good lube in my opinion. You won't be wasting any money on either choices, if you are getting them at a fair price.

User avatar
webwit
Wild Duck

30 Jul 2012, 21:15

Limmy wrote:Expensive (500g costs more than $200. Specific density of Krytox is close to 2, so volume wise it is going to be around 260ml)
Weird, this equates to a density of just over 1:
http://www.fastenal.com/web/products/de ... ku=4123486

Limmy

30 Jul 2012, 21:18

DanGWanG wrote:Voted for GPL 103 since that's what's being used on my KMAC. It feels awesome, but I have no means of comparison. There's also another step that KBD members typically do, and that's applying 75W90 (with LSD additives) gear oil to the tips of the spring, a very low conservative dip. But maybe Limmy can explain more on that...

BTW, can I partake in the group buy? Or are we Americans not allowed? =)
The engine oil is applied to the springs to reduce scratching noise between metal spring and plastic slider. I use some high viscosity silicone oil for this purpose and it works pretty well as well too. Many say spring lubrication is a must and it certainly is more common mod than slider lubrication.

Limmy

30 Jul 2012, 21:19

webwit wrote:
Limmy wrote:Expensive (500g costs more than $200. Specific density of Krytox is close to 2, so volume wise it is going to be around 260ml)
Weird, this equates to a density of just over 1:
http://www.fastenal.com/web/products/de ... ku=4123486
I don't know about the sales link. But here is more details about Krytox GPL 103
http://www.matweb.com/search/datasheet. ... 4146c67d37

Edit: You would want to look at Density.

User avatar
DanGWanG

30 Jul 2012, 21:23

Thanks for the clarification Limmy! I have no experience with engine oil on plastics, but I've heard that the oil will break down/decay plastics. If that's the case, is it safe to be putting engine oil on the spring?

Also, applying lube to the sliders is easy to understand. But, do you have any good articles (perhaps with pictures) that you could direct us to for applying engine oil or high viscosity silicone oil on the springs? I've had a difficult time using the search feature on KBD. Any help would be appreciated =) Thanks!

Also, ripster is a cunt.
Last edited by DanGWanG on 30 Jul 2012, 21:32, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
webwit
Wild Duck

30 Jul 2012, 21:27

Thanks. This one equates to the right amount:
http://www.drillspot.com/products/18800 ... e_Line_Oil

Gotta wonder about that 20kg / 5 gallon ... did they list it just wrong?

Limmy

30 Jul 2012, 21:34

DanGWanG wrote:Thanks for the clarification Limmy! I have no experience with engine oil on plastics, but I've heard that the oil will break down/decay plastics. If that's the case, is it safe to be putting engine oil on the spring?

Also, applying lube to the sliders is easy to understand. But, do you have any good articles (perhaps with pictures) that you could direct us to for applying engine oil or high viscosity silicone oil on the springs? I've had a difficult time using the search feature on KBD. Any help would be appreciated =) Thanks!
The plastic used for Cherry switches are pretty chemical resistant so I wouldn't worry much about engine oil damaging the Cherry switches.

About lubing the springs, many methods has been introduced. One of which is dipping it completely and then pat dry using paper towel so that you would have only thin coat of the oil on the springs. In my case, I apply one small drop of the silicone oil on top of springs and let it spread. It worked well for me without issues.

Key principle is not to over apply so that oil is everywhere.

Limmy

30 Jul 2012, 21:37

webwit wrote:Thanks. This one equates to the right amount:
http://www.drillspot.com/products/18800 ... e_Line_Oil

Gotta wonder about that 20kg / 5 gallon ... did they list it just wrong?
Technically they are right because the container size may be different from the volume of the content. I would guess 5 gallon container will be only half full.

User avatar
DanGWanG

30 Jul 2012, 21:38

Limmy wrote:
DanGWanG wrote:Thanks for the clarification Limmy! I have no experience with engine oil on plastics, but I've heard that the oil will break down/decay plastics. If that's the case, is it safe to be putting engine oil on the spring?

Also, applying lube to the sliders is easy to understand. But, do you have any good articles (perhaps with pictures) that you could direct us to for applying engine oil or high viscosity silicone oil on the springs? I've had a difficult time using the search feature on KBD. Any help would be appreciated =) Thanks!
The plastic used for Cherry switches are pretty chemical resistant so I wouldn't worry much about engine oil damaging the Cherry switches.

About lubing the springs, many methods has been introduced. One of which is dipping it completely and then pat dry using paper towel so that you would have only thin coat of the oil on the springs. In my case, I apply one small drop of the silicone oil on top of springs and let it spread. It worked well for me without issues.

Key principle is not to over apply so that oil is everywhere.
Thank you, this is very good information. I appreciate the quick responses!

cinch

30 Jul 2012, 22:45

Limmy wrote:Pros of RO-59:
Fail proof

Cons of RO-59:
Questionable shelf life. (similar PFTE coating lube Molykote D-96 has 9 months shelf life. Google Molykote D-96 shelf life.)
what do you mean with fail proof? that it's a more solid form and doesn't run as much?
regarding shelf life: what if you freeze it? what happens past the shelf life?
Limmy wrote:Pros of Krytox:
Better performance compared to RO-59

Cons of Krytox:
Since it is in liquid form, it may evaporate. (Thinnest oil GPL100 may have this issue, but GPL103 should perform much better in this regard.)
what makes it perform better?
what happens when it evaporates? does it stop being a lubricant? does one then have to apply more? are there any leftovers? if so, can they be cleaned?

Limmy

30 Jul 2012, 23:04

By "fail proof" I meant lubrication cannot go wrong or should I say have very little side effect. Lubrication using oils can go wrong if you over apply.

By "performing better" I meant it gives you more slippery feel.

I don't have good answers to your other questions though.

By the way, Cherry MX blues shouldn't be lubricated to retain the click sound. All of oils that I had except GPL100 eliminated the click sound. GPL100 reduced the click sound, but I think it would be nearly impossible to get the same level of sound if you work on multiple switches.

User avatar
Half-Saint

30 Jul 2012, 23:13

Now this is a weird topic title...

cinch

30 Jul 2012, 23:28

thanks for the answers limmy! voted gpl 103.
Half-Saint wrote:Now this is a weird topic title...
ahahahaha

User avatar
The_Ed
Asperger's... SQUIRREL!

31 Jul 2012, 01:08

There should be 14 krytox numbers with multiple choices allowed. I believe 204, 205, and 206 will have the best results based off of my experiences with 100, 106, and 205. 100 and 106 are worthless as they just run, and will have to be constantly relubricated. The 200 series are greases that stay where you put them, and have the exact same buttery smooth feel after 4 months. Personally I'd like to try some 204 next.

Limmy

31 Jul 2012, 04:17

The_Ed wrote:There should be 14 krytox numbers with multiple choices allowed. I believe 204, 205, and 206 will have the best results based off of my experiences with 100, 106, and 205. 100 and 106 are worthless as they just run, and will have to be constantly relubricated. The 200 series are greases that stay where you put them, and have the exact same buttery smooth feel after 4 months. Personally I'd like to try some 204 next.
You can always buy a Krytox grease tube at an affordable price here ( http://www.vacuumoil.com/krytoxgplgrease.htm $45 shipped to NY from CA), but we rarely see such pricing for GPL103. The only place I know where GPL oils are sold in small quantities is miller-stephenson and their prices were not that great.

Note that Krytox grease is just Krytox oils thickened with PTFE. Most of the lubrication is done by the base oil and the Krytox grease would have the same lubrication properties with respective base oil. So, 206 would be basically have the same lubrication properties as 106, i.e. it would be sticky just as much as 106.

I have some concern about the running oil part too, but as I stated in previous posts it is less of an issue for Cherry switches. Besides, your application is focused on only one key, capslock, so I don't think you experienced what I experienced using the grease on other keys for typing. (the feeling of sluggishness)

I value usefulness of Krytox grease (I like them so much, I have 5 different kinds of Krytox grease), but I wouldn't recommend using them on its own. It would be wonderful to have both grease and oil, but if I can have only one I would rather have oil then grease.

User avatar
The_Ed
Asperger's... SQUIRREL!

31 Jul 2012, 09:05

Capslock was the only key that *needed* the lube on my 3494. Thus it is my lube experiment key. I still haven't decided to use 205 on a whole board yet. Some of those tubes in that link are good prices, but the needle syringe is an easier applicator. The way this poll is going 103 will win. I will not join if that happens because of my prior experiences with the oils. If people were able to actually try at least 1 of each oil and grease there may be more supporters of the grease like myself. Maybe there should be a krytox tester kit? Everyone has their own preferences and will like a different one best. Just my 2 cents.

User avatar
fossala
Elite +1

31 Jul 2012, 09:07

krytox tester kit would cost too much. I've got my hands on some R0-59 from RiGs. I will try it on my cherry numpad when it arrives. But that will be 2 to 3 weeks...

User avatar
The_Ed
Asperger's... SQUIRREL!

31 Jul 2012, 09:15

1-2ml of the 14 main krytox lubes could be made *affordable*. But the one that is preferred would then have to be bought afterwards for more money. R0-59 seems like too much of a hassle to apply to me. But it is much cheaper for the volume than krytox. This GB will be based solely off of Limmy recommending 103, and I'm fine with that. My own opinion differs so I will be on my own. But if people are willing to try one of the oils, they should also be willing to try one of the greases to see which they prefer more.

User avatar
fossala
Elite +1

31 Jul 2012, 09:17

I've just spent 15euro on lube. I will be spending however much on this groupbuy, I can't really bring myself to spend any more. Hopefully other members can so we can get a varied opinion.

User avatar
The_Ed
Asperger's... SQUIRREL!

31 Jul 2012, 09:22

Is it only me and limmy that have tried multiple krytox lubes here? That's sad but understandable. A few more peoples' opinions would be nice to throw in.

User avatar
fossala
Elite +1

31 Jul 2012, 09:44

The_Ed wrote:Is it only me and limmy that have tried multiple krytox lubes here? That's sad but understandable. A few more peoples' opinions would be nice to throw in.
The reason why I'm choosing to go with limmys advice is because it's not just his, it's apparently most of the Korean keyboard community.

Djuzuh

31 Jul 2012, 22:06

I changed my mind and chose RO59.

First because what The_Ed says is true, oil is made for hermetic systems, and will drip, and grease is made to simply put somewhere. That's the standart usage of those words. I don't want to gamble, or have oil everywhere in my kb.

And because Limmy said grease affects the switch, I will choose the remaining one.

Because:
1) it is cheaper.
2) it's more failproof.
3) it's what the korean used before the krytox products, and it's what ripster is recommending, so I'll assume it's good enough.

So fuck it if it's just not as good, or if it will hold 2 months less. It's cheaper. It's easier to apply. It won't drip in my keyboard.

User avatar
webwit
Wild Duck

31 Jul 2012, 22:20

The_Ed has strong opinion, but didn't actually use 103, as opposed to a bunch of Korean keyboard nuts. Everyone who wants the best solution on a silver plate or thinks it's sad people here haven't tried different lubes or wants cheap, is missing the point, for me at least. The point is to experiment and find out and find the best stuff or find out why it doesn't perform as anticipated. For me there's no point to RO59 if a bunch of Korean guys left it behind as inferior, in favor of Krytox, except to save 10 or 20 EUR. In that case I might as well not apply any lube to a lot of switches, and save even more.

Djuzuh

31 Jul 2012, 22:36

webwit wrote:The_Ed has strong opinion, but didn't actually use 103, as opposed to a bunch of Korean keyboard nuts. Everyone who wants the best solution on a silver plate or thinks it's sad people here haven't tried different lubes or wants cheap, is missing the point, for me at least. The point is to experiment and find out and find the best stuff or find out why it doesn't perform as anticipated. For me there's no point to RO59 if a bunch of Korean guys left it behind as inferior, in favor of Krytox, except to save 10 or 20 EUR. In that case I might as well not apply any lube to a lot of switches, and save even more.
Exactly. The point is to experiment. And to experiment, I'd first like to have a common ground, something I can refer myself to. Something more neutral.

And RO59 seems like this. Something that I KNOW will work either way.

And after I did test the RO59 stuff, I'll be able to try the more exotic stuff.

If you want to try different cars, you don't start with the ferrari. You start with the audi to have a neutral comparaison point.

That's my opinion ofc.

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