Ergodox massdrop groupbuy discussion

[fossala]

(cross-post)

Since no one who's asked has reported back yet... lol: I just chatted with Mark at Massdrop, and they're thinking the kits will be shipping in 3-6 weeks - determined by whichever part takes the longest, probably either the cases or the PCBs. The PCB order has gone in already, but since it's Chinese New Year the factories are empty at the moment.

This should of been kept local, why the hell are massdrop using cheap Chinese workers? Anything to save/make $5?

[TDub]

(cross-post)

Since no one who's asked has reported back yet... lol: I just chatted with Mark at Massdrop, and they're thinking the kits will be shipping in 3-6 weeks - determined by whichever part takes the longest, probably either the cases or the PCBs. The PCB order has gone in already, but since it's Chinese New Year the factories are empty at the moment.

This should of been kept local, why the hell are massdrop using cheap Chinese workers? Anything to save/make $5?

Because they are running a business and as such they try to maximize their profits?

[ic07]

This should of been kept local, why the hell are massdrop using cheap Chinese workers? Anything to save/make $5?

Because pcbwing (if I'm remembering correctly that that's who they're using) is the same company bpiphany used when he had the prototypes printed? -_-

[dox]

and the phantom....
I'm getting sick of all the whining about massdrop and such by people that never offered to help the project/distribution or organize the group buy themselves.

[sordna]

This should of been kept local, why the hell are massdrop using cheap Chinese workers? Anything to save/make $5?

What is local? UK (which is your location), Canada, USA, or Sweden ?

massdrop went with exactly what the keyboard designers did. PCB company in China called PCBwing.

I'm tired of this too, but what do you really think, massdrop is some giant multinational taking advantage of the planet? It's a tiny startup (3 people?) with group buys of various stuff (proposed/voted by customers, you can propose to do a group buy on a backpack or coffee filter, which they are currently doing BTW) as their business model. There is nothing wrong or unethical about that, and most of the stuff they are selling are commercial products. They have no say in where they are manufactured.
Here's an article I found that mentions massdrop, read it to get an idea:

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/06/techn ... glory.html

If anything, we should support them, they were asked to provide a service above and beyond what they do (which is order a readily available XYZ commercial product like headphones or whatever customers propose) and organized the order of a complex kit made of various components. So we should be grateful about that.

Why are you attacking a small company that was solicited to provide a service, and they bent over backwards to provide the best service that they could?

I went ahead and ordered that permanent coffe filter from them, saved me 30% over amazon.

[vivalarevolución]

and the phantom....
I'm getting sick of all the whining about massdrop and such by people that never offered to help the project/distribution or organize the group buy themselves.

The dox speaks!

[TDub]

I agree with sordna why is everyone at massdrops throat? People don't trust them bc they need to make an account, bc they outsource to china, bc they are not part of the community..... If you don't like it, do your own GB. From what I understand, it's a pain in the ass, both financially and time invested. We should be glad such a company exist and is willing to run GBs for us if we can't find someone within the community to do it. Will it cost a little more then a GB? Probably. They are a business after all and need to make a profit. But it also enables people who are new to the community or outside the community to buy the ergodox, people that might not trust some person on a forum they don't know with 200$.

[webwit]

I agree with sordna why is everyone at massdrops throat?

Because of all the issues you totally failed to address, to continue with an attack on people addressing these issues. Such poverty. You even attack our community as something you can't trust in favor of trusting a company for profit with terms which give you the finger. Jesus.

[fossala]

and the phantom....
I'm getting sick of all the whining about massdrop and such by people that never offered to help the project/distribution or organize the group buy themselves.

The dox speaks!

Fuck that, I did offer to distribute, like I have in the past!

[Gilgam]

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/06/techn ... glory.html

Nice interesting article.
I've ordered a KB via massdrop, i just had two problems:

No answer to questions, but i can understand i am not the only one. But it's quite annoying as a customer
My bank canceled the money transfer. This is the first time. I had to call.

Finally the group buy is over and i still have no email about that.

The website is very nice, modern and well designed, but they lack some communication skills.

Nonetheless i hope they will go on success.

[lowkey144]

Fossala, Webwit, did you not agree that this kind of meta-conversation was better held in a different thread than the ergodox's? Has it been started?

I think that the pointless arguing about MD has gone on long enough(15 pages and 2 months at least right?) here. The trigger has been pulled and what will be will be. If you are to be proven right and MD scurries away with all the money then only time will tell.

[webwit]

How nice of you to address me after I reacted to multiple sneers of people who couldn't stop. Also if you end with the hyperbole about whether MD will scurry away with the money and it's all about that, you are in fact continuing the meta-conversation with your propaganda bullshit.

[mintberryminuscrunch]

If the concerns expressed here improve / give cause to improve their services etc it should be considered a good thing.

[lowkey144]

The forum you have here is filled with great people who really like keyboards, I don't know why you seem to think that those that disagree with you have an agenda handed down from some higher power.

I have allowed your dismissive language to irritate me and by so doing I have failed at a key portion of my internet protocol. As such, I will not post here again.

Thanks to everyone who contributed their time and energy to the ergodox, you have brought something that will enrich the lives of others into the world, and you deserve to be proud.

[webwit]

Goodbye. Free speech is a bitch. People having other opinions and shit.

[sordna]

It's ok to disagree and rant about the decision to go with a company organizing the GB.

What's not ok, is attacking the company. They were called to provide a service, doing a good job (yes 200+ kits is AMAZING) so they shouldn't be attacked.
It's like you hire a guy to mow your lawn, he is sweating doing a great job, and your wife is taking a gun and shooting the poor worker because she felt that lawnmowing is a job that is best done by the family.
It's not the worker's fault !!!!!!!! He is doing the job he was asked to do!

Imagine if one of your friends or relatives ran this little company, trying to do their best, and then going to Deskthority and seeing all this crap about abusing Chinese workers and other utter nonsense. It's 2 poor guys in a basement, ordering whatever their customers are telling them to order. Just leave them alone.

[webwit]

These 2 guys in a basement, are they the same who came up with the conditions to go fuck yourself? It's like this guy you hire to mow your lawn, and he states that if he fucks up, you can go fuck yourself.

[sordna]

All these conditions are written by laywers, yes, unfortunately companies have to hire lawyers if they want to stand a chance to survive.

When I take my kids to a trampoline place, I have to sign a worse waiver, saying that I am not to hold them liable even if injury or death occurs because of their neglect to properly maintain the equipment. It's a brutal situation in the US with people making money by thinking of ways to make lawsuits (spill a hot coffee on yourself, ask for 1mil dollars in damages, it has happened way too often) and every company has to hire lawyers to cover their ass. It's a very sad situation, but it's really not initiated by the various college grads doing startups.

But hey, that guy that does lawns, if he has a good word of mouth reputation, you'll hire him, even if he says that he doesn't guarantee his work

Peace!

[Ian S]

It's what it is.

I basically wanted a couple of boards and switches.

As the people doing it are in the USA, we have to pay a lot of tax on their profit. If the parts were shipped from China to the EU then we'd just pay tax on the parts.

I can't guess how much 200 pairs of boards, (or 400 boards the same?) cost to make in China, + post to the EU, but I expect it's a lot less per board than the price mentioned in above posts.

I missed 20 or 30 pages as this site stopped sending me them and I was too busy to keep looking for updates. Then I eventually find and go to a strange website with no info, that requires me to make an account just to see what's there. I guessed that it appeared to be be run by a couple of people in their bedroom (about right is transpires). Then reading here suggests there are no parts that I want, just kits for, after UK taxes, a huge price.

I doubt that I'll like or get on with this ergo keyboard but I wanted to give it a try but cheaply. The way it's turned out is disappointing for this person with less money to throw around than 200 other people.

I am a bit surprised that no-one in the EC simply had a bunch of boards made and sold them, especially as the originals were made by the Chinese company. An let the cases come later.

Now I'm wondering if I should one day try and make my own pair of boards. But with more switches as I think ultra mini keyboards are sh1t as I want loads and loads of buttons. That was perhaps the main thing putting off this particular board and I'd wondered if I could attach some Vero with extra buttons on.

[AloisiusFauxly]

Your lawn mower can say whatever he likes, but you can call the cops if he fucks up and then doesn't fix it. Every other lawn mower in your area says the same thing, because one of them got ripped off once by a homeowner for their good service. Now they say "You can go fuck yourself if I fuck up" and it protects them from getting ripped off, while the cops protect you.

[sordna]

I forget who, but there's a guy who built an ergodox without a PCB, by just building the matrix with wires (sort of like a maltron):
http://blog.fsck.com/2012/12/building-a ... art-1.html
http://blog.fsck.com/2012/12/building-a ... art-2.html

BTW you could have bought a pair of PCBs for $44 from massdrop to build your keyboard and avoid the $200 kit, but anyway, it makes a lot of sense for a group buy in the EU, even just for the PCBs. Why don't you and/or fossala start an interest check thread? A case is optional, especially if you source PCB-mount cherry MX switches.

[webwit]

Your lawn mower can say whatever he likes, but you can call the cops if he fucks up and then doesn't fix it. Every other lawn mower in your area says the same thing, because one of them got ripped off once by a homeowner for their good service. Now they say "You can go fuck yourself if I fuck up" and it protects them from getting ripped off, while the cops protect you.

I don't think shitty terms are ok because you might be able to fight them in court. It's really not a very good argument.

It's also widely beyond the original premise. Which is whether in the long term it's a good idea for a community if group buy terms and conditions and essentially control shift from the community to a 3rd party for profit. In any case, anyone is free to buy from massdrop, just as anyone is free to rather not. I'm sure this run will turn out fine, especially with the spotlight on it. It's not a deskthority groupbuy, you can make up your own mind. This is just a place to discuss it.

[AloisiusFauxly]

I don't think shitty terms are ok because you might be able to fight them in court. It's really not a very good argument.

You don't need to fight them in court - the mere threat of litigation keeps them in line. If Massdrop is acting in their own best interests, they won't risk breaking the law as they would jeopardize their business and profits by having to defend themselves in court.

Shitty as their terms seem in isolation, they are standard for US companies and in that context they're not that shitty.

[Ian S]

http://blog.fsck.com/2012/12/building-a ... art-1.html
http://blog.fsck.com/2012/12/building-a ... art-2.html

Thanks for the links I've noted them.

I, wrongly then, got the impression that only extra boards were available for $44, with a kits, rather than boards on their own, and perhaps the two chips and the switches. I could have registered and had a look but I seem to be without time recently.

[webwit]

@AloisiusFauxly
I'm neither American nor a lawyer, but clearly you are not a lawyer either. It's a bunch of bullshit. I happen to know this because I was once part of a startup which was headquartered in SF, same state as massdrop, and discussed terms and conditions with a bunch of lawyers. Your premise is threat of litigation helps keep massdrop in line in case of terms which counter the laws. This is not correct. That would just make them more liable. Like stealing is against the law, and if their terms state they may steal from you, it makes them more liable because it's a letter of intent to break the law. So if massdrop has bad terms, these are bad terms which help them in a possible defense and which are bad for you, good for them, not terms which are useless in court and make them more liable.

[sordna]

@Ian
Apart from the extras you could add to a kit, they later started separate group buys for PCBs on their own, cases on their own, and switches on their own, but those GBs are now ended as well.
Anyway, some folks will probably sell some extras or even entire keyboards after they get them, and hopefully there will be more group buys organized.
Maybe you or fossala could look into UK companies making some PCBs, since he prefers local businesses, and ask them for prices at various quantities.

[AloisiusFauxly]

@AloisiusFauxly I'm neither American nor a lawyer, but clearly you are not a lawyer either.

Correct, and neither am I a US citizen. Clearly neither of us should be treating our opinions as anything more than just opinion. There's a big leap from the language in their ToS to conclusions like "you can fuck off if you have a problem" and one that shouldn't be made without in-depth legal knowledge.

[webwit]

Oh fuck you and your apologies for a nasty ToS while repeatedly attacking a member who feels otherwise. Really. Fuck you. With your fabricated fantasy how a bad ToS doesn't matter, because you, the foreigner, can threaten with legal action. This is exactly the kind of stuff why entities like massdrop should be avoided and why they are a danger to a community. They are already polarizing it with their nasty, vile terms and with fanboys who aggressively excuse away anything with total bullshit.

[Merijn]

Can't we just stop arguing and start enjoying keyboards? :<

[Ian S]

they later started separate group buys for PCBs on their own

Now you tell me! I probably would have bought a couple. Maybe my not realising that, was fate intervening. Or maybe I simply missed out.

To have boards made in the UK might be costly compared to China. Last time I did it, I had 30 boards made for a Hi-Fi amplifier I was designing. That was some years ago but it seemed a bit expensive. A pal had 100 or so boards similar to these Ergodox ones; in overall size, double sided, plated through hole, tinned, printed and coated, made in the UK and he was going on about how very expensive they were.

I wouldn't be all that surprised if now the UK board manufacturers actually get everything made in China.

I just took part in a group buy for a headphone amplifier self assembly kit and the designer in Canada had the boards made in China. That was over 200 tiny boards for about 100 buyers, all of which he handled by himself, with his wife helping to make the boxes and I expect package and post the parts.