How Cherry has fallen

[nafsasp]

Super interesting! It's interesting to see some substantial info to back up the vintage blacks, they are smoother after all. That drop in smoothness is crazy
Have you done gateron blacks yet? I remember people hailing them as the best linears when they first came out and I'd be interested to see how they compare.

I'm also interested to see how a spring-swapped clear compares to a brown or a zealio but that's something else entirely.

I'm not sure if HaaTa has tested any of the linear Gateron switches, but I can give you my impressions. Gateron linear switches are very smooth. Probably smoother than vintage MX Blacks (though again, my testing is based on feel, not hard science), but I find their spring weight to be a little lighter that I would like it to be, and they are more wobbly than MX switches (which probably contributes in some way to their smoothness).

I prefer Gateron linear switches to new Cherry linears (maybe MX Pink/Silent withstanding), but like vintage MX Blacks the most.

[HaaTa]

So, something I've talked about for quite a while that affects most keyboard switches is "spring friction". Or said another way spring binding.

When springs are compressed, they are held into place in switches. The coils of the spring rub against the side of the housing causing additional resistance against the movement of the slider. The material, plating, lubricant and corrosion can have a lot to do with this to varying degrees depending on the switch design.

The number of coils may have a positive or negative affect as well. Few coils means less contact points, but each contact point applies more friction. More coils means more contact points and more chances to get caught on housing imperfections.

In terms of length of springs. this mainly matters for switch pre-load force. Otherwise it doesn't really matter.

Something don't see talked about very much (if at all) is vibrations/force transfer through the spring. When you compress a spring, it doesn't compress uniformly when the coils are being resisted by friction due to the housing. This causes force impulses to be transferred through-out the spring. I suspect this is one of the sources of noise on my force graphs, though it's pretty hard to validate without some sort of highspeed camera and the switch cut open.

Anyways, yep. Springs can affect how a switch feels. But I think the design of the switch itself is more important.

I have thought about this, but I don't know manyt switch designs in which is spring is so exposed that it would clearly rub against stationary parts. Could you give an example of a design in which this is very prominent?

Well, there's the spring holder on the bottom of every Cherry-style housing. Even if they are conical, there is still the possibility that the spring is resting against part of it.

On many Key Tronic reed switches you can hear the spring compress. The center peg is quite smooth, but it's also not really holding the spring in place very well, so it's also free to rub inside the slider too.

wiki/Key_Tronic_magnetic_reed

[Chyros]

So, something I've talked about for quite a while that affects most keyboard switches is "spring friction". Or said another way spring binding.

When springs are compressed, they are held into place in switches. The coils of the spring rub against the side of the housing causing additional resistance against the movement of the slider. The material, plating, lubricant and corrosion can have a lot to do with this to varying degrees depending on the switch design.

The number of coils may have a positive or negative affect as well. Few coils means less contact points, but each contact point applies more friction. More coils means more contact points and more chances to get caught on housing imperfections.

In terms of length of springs. this mainly matters for switch pre-load force. Otherwise it doesn't really matter.

Something don't see talked about very much (if at all) is vibrations/force transfer through the spring. When you compress a spring, it doesn't compress uniformly when the coils are being resisted by friction due to the housing. This causes force impulses to be transferred through-out the spring. I suspect this is one of the sources of noise on my force graphs, though it's pretty hard to validate without some sort of highspeed camera and the switch cut open.

Anyways, yep. Springs can affect how a switch feels. But I think the design of the switch itself is more important.

I have thought about this, but I don't know manyt switch designs in which is spring is so exposed that it would clearly rub against stationary parts. Could you give an example of a design in which this is very prominent?

Well, there's the spring holder on the bottom of every Cherry-style housing. Even if they are conical, there is still the possibility that the spring is resting against part of it.

On many Key Tronic reed switches you can hear the spring compress. The center peg is quite smooth, but it's also not really holding the spring in place very well, so it's also free to rub inside the slider too.

wiki/Key_Tronic_magnetic_reed

Aaah, interesting, that's a good point. That's the first time I've seen KTMR from the inside, too .

[Alkhar]

So will a lubed stickered switch be better than an stock vintage black then on your test ?
Since the stem seems to be the source of the problem, could something be done to it to reverse/make it better ?
Nixdorf seems to be superior than vintage black from popular belief, could this be due to a change in the plastic composition ?

[Hking0036]

Super interesting! It's interesting to see some substantial info to back up the vintage blacks, they are smoother after all. That drop in smoothness is crazy
Have you done gateron blacks yet? I remember people hailing them as the best linears when they first came out and I'd be interested to see how they compare.

I'm also interested to see how a spring-swapped clear compares to a brown or a zealio but that's something else entirely.

I'm not sure if HaaTa has tested any of the linear Gateron switches, but I can give you my impressions. Gateron linear switches are very smooth. Probably smoother than vintage MX Blacks (though again, my testing is based on feel, not hard science), but I find their spring weight to be a little lighter that I would like it to be, and they are more wobbly than MX switches (which probably contributes in some way to their smoothness).

I prefer Gateron linear switches to new Cherry linears (maybe MX Pink/Silent withstanding), but like vintage MX Blacks the most.

I heard as much about the wobble but I'm interested to see how much smoother they actually are compared to vintage blacks or modern ones.

On another side though, is it okay to put these on the wiki? The MX black section has a comment stating "
Keyboard gurus say that older ("vintage") MX Blacks feel smoother than newer ones, but other users dispute this." but these graphs clearly show some substantiation behind it, plus I think generally speaking it would be wise to include these with each switch's wiki page.

[kekstee]

Great to see our fingertips confirmed in a graph. But you know what? I tested vintage black sliders and tops against newer Cherry Reds with the same spring and still went for the Reds in the end. :o

The hint of scratchiness actually adds to the key feedback given a very light spring. Also the newer ones have almost no key wobble, which was an issue with the Blacks I have here. I'd rather take a defined keypress over a smooth and wobbly one.

[Wodan]

Just plugged in my "brand new" Varmillo VA108MR in ISO-DE layout with Cherry MX Reds to give kekstee a +1.

[life@1ms]

Considering using vintage blacks instead of MX silent blacks - but does anyone know how to make the vintage blacks as silent as the "silent blacks?" Or is that too much of a project? I'm after the best, most silent, linear switch with actuation force between 60 & 80. I will also be reducing the actuation distance (and increasing silence) by adding o-rings.

[Wodan]

Considering using vintage blacks instead of MX silent blacks - but does anyone know how to make the vintage blacks as silent as the "silent blacks?" Or is that too much of a project? I'm after the best, most silent, linear switch with actuation force between 60 & 80. I will also be reducing the actuation distance (and increasing silence) by adding o-rings.

GMK QMX

[kbdfr]

Considering using vintage blacks instead of MX silent blacks - but does anyone know how to make the vintage blacks as silent as the "silent blacks?" Or is that too much of a project? I'm after the best, most silent, linear switch with actuation force between 60 & 80. I will also be reducing the actuation distance (and increasing silence) by adding o-rings.

GMK QMX

One of these rare and precious posts by Wodan, containing all the info that is needed.

[UncleFan]

There are many factors that affect the performance of the switch. I believe that even if you compare a NOS switch of the 1980s with a new switch, there are differences.
During my collection research, I found that even the switches on the same keyboard have slight differences in their springs, which affects the spring constant and thus its actuation force.
In addition, the friction between keystem and contact also has a greater impact. If CHERRY's raw material supplier changes, it will naturally affect the quality of the switch.
In some respects, I do hope CHERRY should do better...
It is worth mentioning that, in my opinion, the most popular Hirose switches and Nixie switches give me a worse feeling, If it is just from the aspect of use, I think they are worthless...Of course, this is just my opinion.