Page 276 of 812

Posted: 28 Jan 2016, 23:58
by tentator
uhm.. they could be clones? I see.. no writing on the switch indeed.. not sure.

By the way why do some caps become yellowish on some keyboards while the cap next to it stays perfectly white, etc.? Really can't be that the sun or air makes the yellowing of the caps so different, isn't it?

tent

PS: sorry tonight I'm in <100 questions mode on> ;)

Posted: 29 Jan 2016, 00:16
by Khronokrator
I think those might indeed be the genuine article, as I seem to recall something from the wiki saying that Blue Alps aren't strictly always labeled. See here: wiki/File:Alps_SKCM_blue_complicated.jpg

Posted: 29 Jan 2016, 00:35
by Chyros
It's hard to say, I can't read the lettering. The shade of blue looks quite unlike that of blue Alps (more like Type III clones) but cameras are very bad at picking up its weird colour, I've found.

Anyway, that's a 6151, right? AFAIK these didn't come with Type IIIs, so could very well be genuine Alps.

Best way to know for sure is to take the top shell off (no need to desolder). That should tell you everything you need to know.

Posted: 29 Jan 2016, 00:51
by ohaimark
I think it's the white balance making the slider look weird. I'd give that a 90% chance of being Blue Alps because of the "texture" of the color.

The true blue has always looked powdery to me, whereas the clone blues always look solid.

(Edit:) Here is the auction: http://www.ebay.de/itm/KB6151-AT-XT-Key ... 1918995656

95% confidence they're real Blue Alps after seeing the board.

Posted: 29 Jan 2016, 04:00
by ohaimark
tentator wrote: By the way why do some caps become yellowish on some keyboards while the cap next to it stays perfectly white, etc.? Really can't be that the sun or air makes the yellowing of the caps so different, isn't it?
Bromine is used as a fire retardant in ABS plastic. Early bromine compounds were somewhat unstable. When exposed to UV radiation (read: sunlight) the unstable bromine undergoes a sort of chemical reaction that frees up its atoms, sometimes in areas that weren't directly exposed to UV light. The telltale color of that reaction is... YELLOW!

Different batches of plastic from the same company may have had more or less stable bromine, which led to differently yellowed keycaps and case bits.

Posted: 29 Jan 2016, 04:10
by Engicoder
ohaimark wrote:
tentator wrote: By the way why do some caps become yellowish on some keyboards while the cap next to it stays perfectly white, etc.? Really can't be that the sun or air makes the yellowing of the caps so different, isn't it?
Bromine is used as a fire retardant in ABS plastic. Early bromine compounds were somewhat unstable. When exposed to UV radiation (read: sunlight) the unstable bromine undergoes a sort of chemical reaction that frees up its atoms, sometimes in areas that weren't directly exposed to UV light. The telltale color of that reaction is... YELLOW!

Different batches of plastic from the same company may have had more or less stable bromine, which led to differently yellowed keycaps and case bits.
So they didn't use Bromine based fire retardants in PBT? The Bromine theory seems flawed. I can't find any scientific backing for it. Everything I can find referring Bromine as the cause of yellowing seems to be regurgitating what was written on the Retr0Bright site. Furthermore, on that page, the author clearly states its just a theory. I'm not a chemist, so I may be talking out of my ass, but the skeptic in me says not so quick.

Queue Chyros...

Posted: 29 Jan 2016, 04:12
by Khronokrator
The yellowing on that keyboard is pretty awful, TBH. I'd be more interested in harvesting its switches for one of my other, much nicer Alps boards.

But given it's likely Blue Alps, which are VERY in demand right now... I expect it to get quite expensive by the end of the auction.

Posted: 29 Jan 2016, 04:22
by ohaimark
Yeah... You'd need to retrobrite the whole thing. Including the keycaps.

Posted: 29 Jan 2016, 04:39
by Jimmy54669
http://www.ebay-kleinanzeigen.de/s-anze ... 8-225-8277 Someone from Germany lives in Baindt ? only 20€ for a Model M

Posted: 29 Jan 2016, 04:56
by ohaimark
Well, I'm parroting. Time to do some research.

"Tetrabromobisphenol A is also used as an additive in acrylonitrile butadiene styrene (ABS)."

Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brominate ... _retardant

So we know it's in there.

However, the industry *knows* there are issues with UV stability in brominated plastics.

Next on the list is a document from ICL Industrial products. Admittedly, this is a PBT datasheet.

"FR-1410 (decabromodiphenyl ethane - 82% bromine) is cost efficient in
PBT but has limited UV stability and is not melt blendable during injection
molding."

Source: http://icl-ip.com/wp-content/uploads/20 ... 130729.pdf

The datasheet and article lead me to believe that less bromine strongly correlates with greater UV stability and weathering endurance, though the plastic itself can also be a large factor.

"The plastics most commonly used to make the structural cases for electronic equipment are polypropylene, impact styrene, and ABS," replied Deanin. "These all tend to discolor and embrittle gradually when exposed to UV and/or heat. They become oxidized and develop conjugated unsaturation, which produces color. They crosslink or degrade, which causes brittleness."

Source: Article where a guy actually talked with an expert -- http://www.vintagecomputing.com/index.php/archives/189

SNES Systems, according to a Nintendo official reply, yellowed due to fire retardants.

"Deanin weighed in on the flame retardant issue only by saying that most retardants are harmless, but certain "aliphatic bromine compounds" are unstable to heat and UV, and should be avoided. Flame retardants unstable to heat! How ironic."

PBT had bromines added to it -- the explanation for the long term color difference likely lies in the different manufacturing processes or chemical makeups of the plastics. ABS is known for being "weak" to UV light, meaning it could break down and release bromine compounds for reaction much faster than PBT.

My conclusion is that ABS plastic, when coupled with bromine, is the perfect storm for yellowing. Oxidation is likely the primary yellowing factor, but it seems that bromine fire retardants act as an accelerant in the process. I don't know if the yellow color of bromine is part of the extreme yellowing shown in ABS, but I think it could be a contributing factor due to the breakdown of the plastic and the reactivity of bromine (which is off the charts).

Posted: 29 Jan 2016, 07:39
by Blaise170
I'm 95% sure those are Blue Alps SKCM.

Posted: 29 Jan 2016, 08:29
by derzemel

Posted: 29 Jan 2016, 10:21
by tentator
Khronokrator wrote: The yellowing on that keyboard is pretty awful, TBH. I'd be more interested in harvesting its switches for one of my other, much nicer Alps boards.

But given it's likely Blue Alps, which are VERY in demand right now... I expect it to get quite expensive by the end of the auction.
exactly.. quote that....

Posted: 29 Jan 2016, 12:43
by gogusrl
http://www.dyalog.com/apl-font-keyboard.htm

Image

Lasered POM or Doubleshots ?

Posted: 29 Jan 2016, 12:49
by HzFaq
I'd say lasered just by looking at the Print Screen key, I think it would be pretty tricky to doubleshot that. Also it says that they are engraved in the blurb on that page.

Pretty cool though.

Posted: 29 Jan 2016, 12:58
by Chyros
Engicoder wrote: Queue Chyros...
Oh dear not the bromine story again xD . Where is it that people got the idea from that bromine creeps through their keyboards or something???

Posted: 29 Jan 2016, 13:57
by E3E
tentator wrote: and (since I'm at it.. I mean learning) this one should be with beloved and rare blue alps or am I wrong?

Image
Yes, these are indeed genuine. That 'B' you mention is indeed indicative of the typical markings you'd see on a true blue Alps switch.

Ahh, this board you show here was my first Alps board and consequently, my first blue Alps board, haha.

Be gentle with her if you buy her! D:

Considering that blue Alps tend to look more vivid in photos than they do in real life without proper white balance, I would imagine that these are not clones.

Posted: 29 Jan 2016, 14:52
by Chyros
Be gentle? It's a motherfucking tank xD.

Posted: 29 Jan 2016, 14:55
by Jimi14
Its probably overpriced but isn't that some dolch variation on the right?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Lot-of-4-Misc-A ... SwoydWmphV

Posted: 29 Jan 2016, 14:57
by lolpes
It's alps, and actually very nice looking!

Posted: 29 Jan 2016, 15:03
by copter
Jimi14 wrote: Its probably overpriced but isn't that some dolch variation on the right?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Lot-of-4-Misc-A ... SwoydWmphV
Gray one looks like it's from some old portable computer, not sure from which model tho. Layout doesn't match Goupil, which I first suspected.

Posted: 29 Jan 2016, 15:33
by elRetto
Jimi14 wrote: Its probably overpriced but isn't that some dolch variation on the right?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Lot-of-4-Misc-A ... SwoydWmphV
I have one of those "Dolch" boards. mine is mx blue and has horrible pad printing :(

Posted: 29 Jan 2016, 18:31
by ohaimark
Jimi14 wrote: Its probably overpriced but isn't that some dolch variation on the right?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Lot-of-4-Misc-A ... SwoydWmphV
Let's number them 1-4 and 5, 1 being nearest on the left and 4 being the farthest away. 5 is the Dolch.

1 is gross -- Keytronic. 2 I can't ID casually. 3's LED location tells me it probably isn't Alps. 4 is Keytronic (ick). Unless you're willing to risk it for 2 and 5, don't buy the bundle.

Posted: 29 Jan 2016, 18:37
by seebart
E3E wrote:
tentator wrote: and (since I'm at it.. I mean learning) this one should be with beloved and rare blue alps or am I wrong?
Yes I'd also say these are real Alps SKCM blue although that slider looks very bright blue but that might be the lousy picture. I bet this will go $$$ high dispite the heavy yellowing.

wiki/Alps_SKCM_Blue

wiki/NTC_KB-6151

keyboards-f2/ntc-kb-6151n-at-xt-t8456.html?hilit=ntc

Posted: 29 Jan 2016, 18:37
by chzel
Nice M0110 in Canada with 2 days to go and insane shipping to EU
http://www.ebay.com/itm/252265421199

Posted: 29 Jan 2016, 18:42
by Muirium
Something I've learned over here is that most foreign shipping is insane, even just to Canada!

Anyway, nice box. Here's one that actually stayed inside it:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-Vintage-App ... 1386052451

Maybe a little Elliptical, just a bit!

Posted: 29 Jan 2016, 18:50
by chzel
This and a couple others like it have been there for ages, even before I got my M0110 about a year ago.

Posted: 29 Jan 2016, 18:52
by bazh
in the relate list there's M0110 keycaps sets too

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1984-Apple-Maci ... 2265421199

Posted: 29 Jan 2016, 18:55
by snuci
chzel wrote: Nice M0110 in Canada with 2 days to go and insane shipping to EU
http://www.ebay.com/itm/252265421199
I already have a few M0110s right now with one in box (that go with the appropriate Macintoshes) but I may be able to use another in box. I've been eyeing that auction and the other auctions from this seller.

About the crazy shipping... now you guys know what I deal with except I buy heavy things :(

Posted: 29 Jan 2016, 20:31
by tigpha