Spherical Buckling Spring Thread

[bryanluman]

I'm interested too! Sphericals would be perfect on my F107.

[niomosy]

This... seems like it's sleeping.
Please tell me it's sleeping, and not dead!

It was noted in the original thread that rsbseb had some health issues and was going to need to take things at a more gradual pace. That was back in October 2015. Hopefully his health is good and he's merely been busy with other activities as that seemed a likely possibility.

[rsbseb]

By reopening this discussion it's important to understand that I am not making any announcement or commitment to produce these caps for sale. But I'm ready to hear from everyone on the possibility. Bring on the opinions and lets talk about it.

To clarify, the shop I opened with my son to do this project and others that were shared here on DT was shut down due to a number of issues. My health was a major factor in that it didn't allow for me to materially participate in the work. A contract to produce large quantities of an item unrelated to keyboards came to an end when the client was unable to fund further development and shuttered the project. As time went on operating capitol became scarce and my son who was looking at getting married needed to make a change into position that would better provide for him and his new wife.

I needed to focus more on my health and decide what direction to go in. I can report that I am in good overall health at this time and have returned to full time work doing architectural design.

My son has continued to work in the plastics industry, advancing his skills and experience. I got together with him this weekend and he expressed some interest in reviving this project and is currently pulling together the resources to do so. This would be a part time hobby venture for both of us.

There are however some things that I feel need to be considered before we get much further into this to keep things realistic.

1. What is the current state of interest for Spherical Buckling Spring caps?
2. What is the future demand likely to be? Would IBM keyboard owners be interested in obtaining multiple sets of keys in different colors and fonts like others (MX,Alps).
3. Is anyone else currently in the process of tooling up for a similar product?

These are important questions to have answers to before making any financial commitments beyond our own personal interests in producing them. Plans for retooling for our own use are already in the works as the tooling for our previous prototypes no longer exist.

[cods]

I am very interested in spherical buckling spring keycaps.
I have three Model M's and a couple of Ellipse's F62 and F77 new model F's on the way (eventually).

I would buy at least one set, purely out of interest as to feel, quality, novelty, no matter what the colours/design - even if design #1 was a spherical version of the existing IBM keysets.

Should the current explosive level of design / colour options in the MX world be taken up to some extent, I'd love to see some more interesting spherical sets for buckling spring keyboards.

[Edit #1]
An aside:
I'm no expert, but Ellipse reckons he has taken orders for over $200,000 in new Model F Kishsavers and F77s and variants (there's also the well known level of interest in secondhand Model Ms, although size of that market is unknown to me).
This logically suggests to me there are currently quite a few people out there who who recently dropped quite a lot of money on a new Model F, plus a bunch of us who already have Model Ms, and these same people may well be willing to part with further cash for spherical keycaps to make their new/old buckling spring board into something a bit different.

[Edit #2]
However, I'm not claiming expertise here! Just interesting that the new Model Fs may well have attracted a newer type of buckling spring owner.

[pr0ximity]

I can't speak to any certainty as to what quantities might be desired, but I can say that the growing community over on reddit does have a strong appetite for spherical Cherry MX caps as evidenced by Signature Plastics' SA profile manufacturing timeline being filled for 2017, and the Model M is a hugely popular board in general there and elsewhere.

[zslane]

I would be surprised to find substantial demand for this, only because IBM boards with buckling spring switches always had cylindrical keycaps, and anyone who gets a hard-on for those IBM boards is going to want the same type of keycaps that the originals had.

There might be significant curiosity, but I wouldn't expect it to translate into marketplace demand that translates into strong sales.

[Wingklip]

A good bet will be to make them model m stem compatible and snap on like the good old model m caps.

It would be much cheaper too to make of you only made one bit. But I would maybe like some for my heavily modified model F

[rsbseb]

A good bet will be to make them model m stem compatible and snap on like the good old model m caps.

It would be much cheaper too to make of you only made one bit. But I would maybe like some for my heavily modified model F

We did make some caps for the 2 piece style model M stems, and I personally like them much better than the cylindricals. I would probably go this route for the sake of simplicity.

[Techno Trousers]

I can't speak to overall demand, since I don't understand some of the keyboard trends (a 40% keyboard, really?)

But I can say that lot_lizard and other contributors are making a real push toward bringing back the capacitive buckling spring as a viable keyboard technology for the future. lot_lizard has said he wants future iterations of the MF to have flat plates and use Cherry key cap sets (via adapter). But once all the CAD files are out there, anyone can produce the original MF with curved plates. If someone does that, it could translate into demand for spherical key sets.

Speaking for myself as a consumer, I have four Model MF kits coming (two 87 key, and two 101 key). I know for certain I'd like to have at least two sphericals sets to try, especially if they can be done as white on black and white on gray double shots (beamspring style).

[Norman_]

The model MF project and new model F project have both been great successes, and the Model MF is definitely going to have many revisions and a lengthy future. There's a serious future for buckling springs, alps on the other hand...

I think that even if you were producing new, high quality cylindrical keycaps they'll sell relatively well. Unicomp Dyesub is pretty low quality, a competitor would be great.

Keycaps in general is a pretty small niche, and bs caps are an even smaller one. Internet subcultures are nested fractally, and we're two or three layers deep already. Sphericals would be a whole nother level deep, although who knows. If SA is any indicator from the MX crowd, you might not be able to make enough.

I think it's at least worth trying to make it a viable product, there's definitely going to be demand. We just need to know if it's possible and not extremely expensive.

[just_add_coffee]

I would be surprised to find substantial demand for this, only because IBM boards with buckling spring switches always had cylindrical keycaps, and anyone who gets a hard-on for those IBM boards is going to want the same type of keycaps that the originals had.

I completely disagree. I have an erection for IBM boards and that erection would exceed 4 hours, which according to the commercials would necessitate medical attention, if I could put keysets as awesome as "SA Jukebox," "SA Dasher/Dancer," etc. on my Model F.

Colorways and aesthetics did not die in 1980-something and IBM and Unicomp are no better at determining what "looks" good than anyone else with a pulse.

Furthermore, I would argue that the ability for a user to customize their keyboard in as many ways as possible is absolutely intrinsic to the ultimate success or failure of these Model F projects. Capacitive buckling spring is a long-proven technology, with NKRO long before we even knew what that was. Making the keys assignable and instituting programmable layers brings the Model F into the 21st century. And styles and cool keysets other than "pebble," "beige," and RGB modifiers will be what wins the all-important additional marketshare that extends beyond grumpy old men who wonder why Matlock isn't still on the air.

Go take a look at /r/mechanicalkeyboards and look at what people are doing with their keyboards. If they can't do that with the new Model F, then they won't buy a new Model F. In which case, we're doomed.

[cods]

I like this _coffee chap. He's passionate!

[vinnycordeiro]

As much as I love buckling spring keyboards and have one as many of others here, the fact is that the user base of them is much smaller than Cherry MX keyboards. Just compare the number of manufacturers of keyboards using the different kinds of switches and you'll have an idea.

Personal preferences should not cloud our judgement when making a business plan, and I admittedly do not have all the information needed to say if a custom buckling spring keycap operation would be profitable or not in the long run. I fear that it isn't, but again, it's an uninformed feeling.

And I agree with just_add_coffee, it would be nice to change my Model M keycaps for something different. SA Dasher, for instance, would be perfect for me (I'm not participating in the group buy, I already have too many Cherry MX keyboards/keysets), but then I come to another very specific problem: the absence of proper legends. Everybody knows that US ANSI is the only layout universally available. Some ISO users may be lucky to have your layout available as an extra kit, but those are few (usually only UK, DE and Norse countries). My Model M is ABNT2, the Brazilian standard. There is no keycap set available out there that can replace the original one. And that's a problem that can't be solved easily, cheaply and/or soon.

[just_add_coffee]

I like this _coffee chap. He's passionate!

Sorry. This subject really grinds my gears.

One particular ... ummmm ... "exchange" on /r/mechanicalkeyboards was my inspiration for this. Upon completion, I might directly spam PM those blowhards with 20 or so glamour shot pics.

[zslane]

Believe me, I strongly feel that switching out the relentlessly prosaic, two-tone gray cylindrical keycaps that have adorned IBM keyboards and all their clones since 1981 should be the first priority of any keyboard owner. However, judging from all the posts I've read from Model M/F collectors in the various forums over the years, doing anything to an M/F/SSK that diminishes its vintage accuracy (especially anything involving its switches or keycaps) is distasteful at best, and grand heresy at worst.

Given that that is the prevailing attitude, I predict a miniscule market demand for spherical keycaps with IBM buckling spring stems. Sphericals go with beamspring switches, while cylindricals go with buckling spring switches. Every IBM fetishist knows that. Besides, fans of the beamspring era are already focused on Matt3o's M3 keycap project. Fans of the buckling spring era are focused on finding vintage keycaps in pristine condition, not turning their beloved relics into some bizarre hybrid that violates this (dreadful) aesthetic:

[Ratfink]

Speak for yourself, zslane. As a fan of the buckling spring era, I would absolutely love new spherical keycaps. I like old ones in good condition because they're the best I can use currently, not because they're perfect in every way. New caps with better quality than the ones Unicomp makes would be fantastic.

[just_add_coffee]

Believe me, I strongly feel that switching out the relentlessly prosaic, two-tone gray cylindrical keycaps that have adorned IBM keyboards and all their clones since 1981 should be the first priority of any keyboard owner. However, judging from all the posts I've read from Model M/F collectors in the various forums over the years, doing anything to an M/F/SSK that diminishes its vintage accuracy (especially anything involving its switches or keycaps) is distasteful at best, and grand heresy at worst.

I see what you're saying, but I'd argue that purist collectors should NOT be the target market and therefore should not dictate the final product. Though extremely loud, their numbers are tiny compared to the overall market of keyboard owners, they already have their boards, and a new version would be of limited appeal to many of them anyway.

I still believe that a successful Model F company (that is the goal here, right?) has to offer all of the customization options that MX-compatible boards have. Cylindrical ... spherical ... DSA ... backlit for when we debut full RGB buckling spring in 2021 ... it should be up to that board's owner.

[zslane]

You guys aren't quite grasping what I'm saying.

You fans of buckling springs who want spherical keycaps have awesome taste in keycaps; I am on your side there. I just don't think you exist in large enough numbers to make a "spherical buckling spring keycap manufacturing" project economically feasible. Of course the purists should not be the target market; unfortunately they make up the vast majority of buckling spring keyboard owners, and without them eagerly buying into these new-fangled sphericals, the project will never get off the ground IMO.

There seems to be this misconception that offering these keycaps is a simple matter, like adding backlit LEDs or something. It's not. It is a time-consuming effort that requires very expensive tooling that doesn't yet exist. And I guarantee that nobody will invest in the manufacturing space, tooling, and hired labor it takes to pump them out in significant quantities given how few people will actually want them.

To reiterate: I think it is a fantastic idea; I also think it'll never happen simply due to market realities.

[rsbseb]

... I guarantee that nobody will invest in the manufacturing space, tooling, and hired labor it takes to pump them out in significant quantities given how few people will actually want them.

To reiterate: I think it is a fantastic idea; I also think it'll never happen simply due to market realities.

zslane - I previously ventured into this a couple of years ago and didn't follow up with any production tooling although at the time it was the plan. I understand the complexity of the work involved, and we plan on completing a few sets for ourselves in the near future.

The question for me is the path I take with tooling up and the really depends on both the demand and the type of finished product people might expect or desire. The tooling requirements for producing a 1000 pieces is significantly different from producing 10,000 pieces, and 1,000,0000 pieces is at a completely different level from there.
If my personal preferences are are in line with enough people, it makes sense to invest in the appropriate tooling for the demand.

[pyrelink]

Hey Rsbseb, glad you are doing better health wise. I personally am just as interested in this project as I was when I said the same thing almost 2 years ago at the beginning of this thread. I think Ellipses project and more recently Lot_Lizards fantastic Model MF project has certainly cemented a good audience for these caps, and I would love to see them realized.

I know that you also were working on those Alps to MX adapters before you took a break, any interest in bringing that project back to life? I was really excited for those.

[just_add_coffee]

Of course the purists should not be the target market; unfortunately they make up the vast majority of buckling spring keyboard owners ...

I still disagree with that. There may be hundreds of thousands of buckling spring boards in daily use right now in homes and offices, and there is a silent majority who would opt for different keysets if only they knew that they had the option.

When there are new Model Fs on the market, I strongly believe that it will compare extremely favorably to MX-switches, and thus win over new owners. If you were to put a nice, good condition Model F alongside a nice, comparable MX blue keyboard and ask random people to type on both and then state a preference, a certain percentage will prefer the Model F. 10%? 40%? 80%? Who knows (if the Model F is dampened in some manner, I think the percentage goes up).

Personally, I've kinda done that with Gateron blues, greens, and clears (as well as rubberdomes), and I opted for the Model F. I don't think that story is strange or unusual.

And if that Model F has all of the features that they've come to expect from a modern keyboard (while Unicomp has been asleep) ... programmable, a wide variety of compatible keysets and form factors, etc., ... they will buy it.

[andrewjoy]

I am a huge model F fanboy and have loads of them!

I would not consider myself a purist but i do think the colours should remain the same

But i would give sphericals a try if the font and colour was right.

[pr0ximity]

The traditional way in the community is to create an Interest Check via Google Forms, and see how many people sign up. Post it on Geekhack and Reddit. We can conjecture all day long but having some rough numbers of people that would throw money at a run of a set would probably be valuable, no? You'll at least get a sense of order of mangitude.

I'd offer the idea of a standard white/grey, a black, and a more exotic color and see the relative interest.

[just_add_coffee]

The traditional way in the community is to create an Interest Check via Google Forms, and see how many people sign up. Post it on Geekhack and Reddit. We can conjecture all day long but having some rough numbers of people that would throw money at a run of a set would probably be valuable, no? You'll at least get a sense of order of mangitude.

I'd offer the idea of a standard white/grey, a black, and a more exotic color and see the relative interest.

Don't we need a design first?

A few months back, I fell in love with /u/MiToRMK's "Canvas" and bought a couple of sets. And the impression that I'm getting from you and andrewjoy is that different and subtle are the ways to go. If so, then you might like this ...

https://www.massdrop.com/buy/massdrop-x ... keycap-set

... plus, it's already been designed, Interest Check-ed, and has a proven appeal.

I've PMed MiToRMK on Reddit and asked if they'd be interested and to jump in here if so. I have no idea if they would be interested, spherical v. cylindrical, etc. Guess we'll see.

[rsbseb]

Don't we need a design first?

Yes, that is exactly what I'm looking for in order to establish a scope of work for the project.

For example if we jump into fantasy land - what would people want to see in a finished Spherical set of IBM keys?

-Light legends on dark keys?, Dark legends on light keys?
-Textured,Shiny,or other?
-Size availability of caps?, custom sizes for popular mods?
-Full or partial sets?
-Special symbols or fonts?
-Options for custom legends?
-Themes?

I know what I would like personally- Black shiny doubleshots with white legends with possibly some special sizes depending on a final layout. Is that practical, perhaps not but I'm sure I will wind up with a set resembling that for myself sooner or later even if I have to engrave and epoxy fill every key by hand.

I think this is a good place to discuss this as it should lead to the development of a successful design proposal. Keep in mind that others may be quietly working on a similar project and will surely follow this discussion and it may help them to develop a desirable offering as well.

If anyone has a wish list they don't want to share here by all means shoot me a P.M. I won't judge you.



just_add_coffee - That canvas set is gorgeous.

[just_add_coffee]

Whatever is decided upon will almost certainly be fine with me. If the set looks different than what has appeared on IBM Model Fs and Ms of the past and looks different than what Unicomp offers (and hopefully is better quality), I'd commit to buying five sets of whatever the final product is.

Just be different. Even if it's a little bit.

[Techno Trousers]

I think for an initial set of sphericals it would be really cool to look back at the beam spring color schemes for inspiration and to win over any skeptical "traditionalists" who might be out there. I think pretty much any of the 2-tone combos from the beam spring wiki page would be awesome.

Spoiler:

[ekeppel]

Just to add my voice to those who have expressed interest in this project... I too would love to see sphericals for the BS. The color suggestions mentioned (paying homage to BeamSpring colors/font) would be fantastic. Honestly, anything in spherical is beautiful.

If this thing ever comes to fruition, definitely count me in!

My dream would be to one day have a set of either Dasher/Dancer or Space Cadet keys on a Model F. Truly the best of both worlds.

[rsbseb]

Ok, a quick update and a question about the bottom row.

I have 8 keys modeled and prototyped at this point - 1u, 1.25u, 1.5u, 1.75u, 2u, 2.25u, 2.5u, 2.75u
I know the 2.5 is a real oddball but I thought I might use it in a layout I was considering for my Wheelwriter.

I'm going to hold off on pictures for a couple of weeks until I sort out a few issues but I am happy to report that I'm about ready to finally fall in love with my IBM boards.

I plan on incorporating a modular stem setup for all the caps over 1u so stem alignment issues will never be an issue.

My question centers around the bottom row. I have five keys modeled with a convex surface 1u, 1.5u, 2.75u (code), 7u, 7.25u
Are there any others sizes that would be useful in the bottom row with a convex surface?

I also have the ISO Enter and the 2u vertical enter for the numpad on my to do list.

All the keys will be full scale (no stepped or hat caps at this time)

For now, I could really use some input on the bottom row convex keys, and any others not listed that I may have missed.

[Techno Trousers]

Ooh, so exciting!! I think you got all the combos for the bottom row, except for one very special case. In lot_lizard's Model MF project, the plate supports a dual space bar setup. One of the space bars is the Code key layout. The other is, I believe, a 2.75u shift key, which has a different stem location than the code key.

I'm not sure whether it's worth your time to make a 2.75 shift key convex mold, though I have a feeling that those who are planning to use that layout on their MFs would give your their undying love!