FSSK v1.00 - Installation & Users Manual

shreebles · 20 Apr 2016, 13:18

Very nice, i$.

You confused me a bit though.

Should we or shouldn't we isolate the metal plate? You used tape in your pictures.

And do you suggest I put the mat between PCB and plate or between PCB and flippers?

cookie · 20 Apr 2016, 13:34

Wow... well that is absolutely amazing!

0100010 · 20 Apr 2016, 20:21

I wouldn't think it would work if you had anything between the PCB and the flippers. You wouldn't change the capacitance of the pads enough for the controller to pick up if you did.

I do agree with re-using the rubber matt between the PCB and the bottom plate - much more elegant than tape.

idollar · 21 Apr 2016, 00:16

0100010 wrote: ↑I wouldn't think it would work if you had anything between the PCB and the flippers. You wouldn't change the capacitance of the pads enough for the controller to pick up if you did.

I do agree with re-using the rubber matt between the PCB and the bottom plate - much more elegant than tape.

If you add something between the PCB and the flippers the set will work if the layer is thin enough and it is not conductive.

There is a history to it ... The test that I did with the FSSK 0001 (prototype PCB) were in this order

1) mat between the metal plate and PCB as you said.
High volume. No need to isolate the metal plate
2) mat between the barrel plate and PCB To ensure Isolation I added the tape
Lower sound level.

With the FSSK 0003 (i.e. PCB V1.00) I started with the option 2. After lot of desperation and perhaps 15 attempts I realised that the problem was in the mat between the flippers and the PCB. It is also true that I am 100% sure that the PCB lying on top of the metal plate IF SOLDERED AS I DID will work as the PCB will not contact the plate. In any case this is NOT RECOMMENDED as it could fail if the conditions change.
I did not apply the option 1) above as I was testing options. Perhaps is the way to go.

idollar · 21 Apr 2016, 00:20

shreebles wrote: ↑Very nice, i$.

You confused me a bit though.

Should we or shouldn't we isolate the metal plate? You used tape in your pictures.

Yes do it. Alternatively place the rubber mat between the PCB and the metal plate.

And do you suggest I put the mat between PCB and plate or between PCB and flippers?

You may test it. I have two FSSK, one with it (FSSK 0001) and one that definitely would not work if it is added (FSSK 0003).
I believe it is a function of the mat and the barrel plate. It really depends on how flat the mat sits inside.

My recommendation: test the keyboard WITHOUT it first. Make it work.
Once you feel comfortable with the working configuration, test others.
Actually this is what I have been doing ...

KEEP ON COMMENTING. I will add this information to the "manual" posts

idollar · 21 Apr 2016, 00:30

Added some more pictures ... they are actually no good ones

shreebles · 21 Apr 2016, 10:47

Thanks i$, I will do the following:

- isolate plate with tape and leave the rubber mat out
- try to make it work and test once I get the controller
- if it works, try to add the rubber mat (in between the flippers and the PCB) as well

I also understood that it is possible for the sensing mechanism to register the change in capacitance despite the rubber mat in the middle. Your working FSSK01 is testament to that. Probably you have to set the Xwhatsit to a higher sensitivity, then.

phosphorglow · 21 Apr 2016, 23:20

Sound deadening:

Think Model F foam in reverse.

On the top, instead of sandwiched. I'll give it a shot and report back.

Techno Trousers · 22 Apr 2016, 03:36

Personally, I don't care about the sound. The louder the better! But you guys might also try the venerable floss mod to reduce the volume. Fohat reported good results with that in his F122s.

Redmaus · 22 Apr 2016, 03:43

Its not the volume, its the weird afterping that happens sometimes. Does NOT sound pleasant.

phosphorglow · 22 Apr 2016, 05:00

Nevermind - foam on top is significantly less effective than I imagined. Oh well. Loud is nice.

lot_lizard · 22 Apr 2016, 05:34

I am having 2x thicker backplates made, countersinking the screws to the original depth. It will take a couple weeks before the machine shop has something for me to report. I will use a low carbon steel like stainless that has less "ping" to it, and the thickness will add stability. In the mean time, has anyone ever considered a product like Dynamat on the bottom of the backplate (holes cut for the screws obviously). Nothing mutes metal like that stuff. Also, you would be able to leave it outside of the functional design since it would be on the back.

shreebles · 22 Apr 2016, 12:08

Techno Trousers wrote: ↑Personally, I don't care about the sound. The louder the better! But you guys might also try the venerable floss mod to reduce the volume. Fohat reported good results with that in his F122s.

Personally I just removed the floss mod from my M's because it just kills too much of the tactility and seems to make the springs heavier.

Maybe that's just on M's though.
Or maybe it's only placebo. But my floss-modded M was definitely heavier to type on. Maybe it wasn't the floss but the springs themselves that were heavier.

I used ultra floss as per the original flossmod recommendation, but never had paracord like some people did on their Fs.

phosphorglow · 23 Apr 2016, 02:00

lot_lizard wrote: ↑I am having 2x thicker backplates made, countersinking the screws to the original depth. It will take a couple weeks before the machine shop has something for me to report. I will use a low carbon steel like stainless that has less "ping" to it, and the thickness will add stability. In the mean time, has anyone ever considered a product like Dynamat on the bottom of the backplate (holes cut for the screws obviously). Nothing mutes metal like that stuff. Also, you would be able to leave it outside of the functional design since it would be on the back.

Hee! Nice to see someone else was thinking about the same thing... I'll be making a mold of the original steel plate and trying a polyurethane resin cast.

phosphorglow · 23 Apr 2016, 02:57

(Also, @lot_lizard: 2x thickness? I don't think that will comfortably fit inside the SSK case without modification. It's already a tight tolerance in the bottom clasp area. The top would technically work, but the case wouldn't be closed all the way. Not terribly noticeable, but still. A stock '87 steel plate measures approximately .050" or around 1.2mm.)

lot_lizard · 23 Apr 2016, 03:55

phosphorglow wrote: ↑(Also, @lot_lizard: 2x thickness? I don't think that will comfortably fit inside the SSK case without modification. It's already a tight tolerance in the bottom clasp area. The top would technically work, but the case wouldn't be closed all the way. Not terribly noticeable, but still. A stock '87 steel plate measures approximately .050" or around 1.2mm.)

I have several SSK's, and was basing the original thought off my DisplayWrite. There (and the Industrial) it would work perfectly. When I opened up the more conventional ones, I see what you mean (surprising really the tolerance variance of those front case tabs through the years). I would want it to be able to act as a template for all, so I will have the machine shop mill notches to the original depth at the touch points (might as well do the back as well). The real kicker is the one I have that is young enough to have drainage canals. It is the tightest. Still confident it will work nicely, but again, will need to be milled to the original depth everywhere it makes contact with the case. Will be a couple of weeks before I have anything back to report

ramnes · 23 Apr 2016, 13:27

Will you organize a GB?

lot_lizard · 23 Apr 2016, 20:05

ramnes wrote: ↑Will you organize a GB?

I would be up for it, but we are a little ways from that

. Still debating if we should just bite the bullet and go all in on the F drop in replacement versus incremental steps that eventually get us there anyway. What are the thoughts of others?.

Now that we have the PCB, does it make sense to do a real investment (time not money) towards a replacement backplate, metal top plate, barrels, foam, and spring/flippers? We are going to want the flippers anyway since it is the point of this whole projects in its current form. I have the flipper designed, and ready to be prototype printed. The top and back plates are really basic to CAD design, and the foam is almost identical to the top plate.

I would vote for something that screws together versus the tab and slide approach... It's a pain to assemble in my mind, and less secure than screws with spacers spread in strategic spots. You would need significantly less points of contact between the plates than the current bolt mod since the metal top plate (spacer spot welded onto) is significantly more rigid than the janky plastic barrel frame.

The barrels themselves would be easier to design than the flippers (or as easy), and could be molded at the same time the flippers are.

With that, you would have a full F replacement drop into an SSK case (worry about that replacement later). It is tempting, but significantly more expensive than what we have considered so far, but FAR less than the F62/77 project (this would truly be non-profit).

Welcome thoughts... This would need significant interest as part of a group but too even be viable though

Phenix · 23 Apr 2016, 23:05

I like the idea of an full metal case. also voting for screw it
(the second option is basically a normal SSK case out of metal, or?)

typos due to my touch screen are possible

Redmaus · 24 Apr 2016, 00:12

Let's face it, we are about to copy Ellipse and make our own brand new SSK's with model F characteristics such as all metal case and square badge.

lot_lizard · 24 Apr 2016, 00:41

Redmaus wrote: ↑Let's face it, we are about to copy Ellipse and make our own brand new SSK's with model F characteristics such as all metal case and square badge.

Minus commission

... If we did, I would prefer we also adapted the PCB to use the mini controller. I have a feeling the 1.56 pitch (3.96mm) cable was a hang up for him, and the price point of standard ribbon cable was a big deal. We should learn from that one. Plus room in the case is a plus

Alkhar · 24 Apr 2016, 10:37

What will give the mini controller for advantage ?
I realy do not like the current trend to push on people like hey we need the mini controller fast help help help.
I mean do the "normal controller" not work great enough ?
As for Ribbon cable, we have people who have access to recycling center, have them take 50 ribbon cable from there and send it to the person in charge ?
Does that not work ?
Have a nice day

Alkhar

lot_lizard · 24 Apr 2016, 10:52

I have zero issues with current controller (actually prefer something proven). I had just finally looked up the cost of the 3.96 pitch cable... It is not easy to find, and the cost was NUTS for a 100 foot spool. Plus I never found in anything bigger than a 24 core, and we need 30 if we are trying to look nice. That was the only real reason. If you have access to used, I would love 2 right now for the current PCB that i$ is sending out.

@Phenix... The current model F uses a metal top plate and bottom plate that sandwich the barrels, foam, and PCB (ours would as well), but the two plates are attached by compressing the foam and sliding several tabs laterally to lock in place. Then one of those metal tabs is bent over to hold the lock in place. It's a mess. Screws would be the new "dreamed up" approach. I would wait on the metal replacement outer case until this inner part had been worked out

Alkhar · 24 Apr 2016, 11:20

Ok, yeah me too, i prefer something proven.
For the ribbon cabble, do you not have a computer shop near you ? Or jyst friends who have computer laying around ? Pretty simple to source them for cheap.

lot_lizard · 24 Apr 2016, 12:04

Here are the differences. .156 (3.96mm) pitch (spacing) is what we would currently need. It is very rare and expensive because of its lack in modern times. The original IBM 4704 keyboards (think Kishsaver and the like) used this, so the xWhatsit controller was designed so it could replace the existing controller. .05 and .1 pitch would be common today. Hopefully this helps

lot_lizard · 25 Apr 2016, 13:46

I need a battery on my micrometer to finish the barrel (I cheat and use a digital one), but thought I would post the flipper. The barrel should be ready to print as well in a couple of days, and I will send both off to test the results. Again, eventually these become castable wax for some mold

Spoiler:

idollar · 25 Apr 2016, 14:08

I am impressed.
If we would know a company doing injection modding I am sure that they could produce them.

Regarding the material it shall be conductive. Ellipse wrote:

group-buys-f50/brand-new-f62-kishsaver- ... al#p240564

Also I got some advice from one potential supplier regarding the recommended plastic. ABS PA-757 is both smooth and strong according to this web site: http://www.chimeicorp.com/en-us/products/plastics/abs/

They recommend 18% carbon infused Torayca ASHT-18A plastic for the flippers instead of electroplating (electroplating appears to be much more expensive).

Barrel
Material: ABS POLYLAC PA-757

Flipper
Material: Torayca ASHT-18A

We could ask him ...

lot_lizard · 25 Apr 2016, 15:00

Thanks... It might take a couple of attempts to get the weight, angle, and feel identical, but we are within .1 mm now I believe

idollar wrote: ↑If we would know a company doing injection modding I am sure that they could produce them

Conductive plastics are a dark art to me. I think I would like to find some company that is domestic (for either me or you) for the molding vs China in bulk. This is super critical to get right, and turnarounds from China take too long if we have to experiment with different plastics for conduction/weight/sound/etc variances. My two cents... especially since this will be the cheapest part to produce in terms of material needed per part

The barrel is pretty hard to screw up

... the flipper, not so much. After the barrel is the top plate, foam, and back plate. Getting there

shreebles · 25 Apr 2016, 15:15

I think the flippers are either made of graphite or plastic coated with graphite for conductivity.

Alkhar · 25 Apr 2016, 18:45

idollar wrote: ↑I am impressed.
If we would know a company doing injection modding I am sure that they could produce them.

Regarding the material it shall be conductive. Ellipse wrote:

group-buys-f50/brand-new-f62-kishsaver- ... al#p240564

Also I got some advice from one potential supplier regarding the recommended plastic. ABS PA-757 is both smooth and strong according to this web site: http://www.chimeicorp.com/en-us/products/plastics/abs/

They recommend 18% carbon infused Torayca ASHT-18A plastic for the flippers instead of electroplating (electroplating appears to be much more expensive).

Barrel
Material: ABS POLYLAC PA-757

Flipper
Material: Torayca ASHT-18A
We could ask him ...

Maybe Comptec coud do this ?

http://comptec.fr/ang/mono-matiere.htm