(Model MF) Remodeling the Model M (aka.. the Mara)

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webwit
Wild Duck

20 Mar 2017, 00:32

HHKB beamspring. Come to the duck. :ugeek:

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Techno Trousers
100,000,000 actuations

20 Mar 2017, 01:03

I think we're going to see a lot of IBM and other classic keyboard technologies live again under the "MF" monniker. I don't think they'll be "Model F" or "beamspring" keyboards, but they will be recognizable as an evolution of those technologies.

lot_lizard, I meant to ask about your comment that the MF♭ barrels will be anchored at all four corners from below. Does this eliminate the need for a top plate and foam (assuming something clever could be done for stabilizer mounting)? I was imagining your "floating plate" idea, with transparent barrels all around the edges, and no top plate, just the bottom plate, PCB, barrels, and key caps. Maybe some LED lighting, just to pump up the art factor. That would definitely look different than anything that's ever come before.

Vizir

20 Mar 2017, 01:30

webwit wrote:HHKB beamspring. Come to the duck. :ugeek:
This!

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk

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lot_lizard

20 Mar 2017, 01:36

DMA wrote: Should I rename it to "capsense"? A bit too close to "capsize" though :)
No way.... I typed "CommonSense" earlier, but autocorrect stepped in. CommonSense is a brilliant name
webwit wrote: HHKB beamspring. Come to the duck. :ugeek:
Yummm... Speaking of HHKB, I know DMA mentioned CommonSense in regards to HHKB in his other thread. DMA... PM me if you would like to play with one. Happy to loan out
Wingklip wrote: Is this becoming a beam spring conversion project on the side too?
haha... I agree this thread has become a bit of a mess, but our plan is to eventually have projects with both of those switches (F and beamspring). "MF" at this point to me is the initiative to "have a collective of talented people pooling together for a common goal as part of a non-profit initiative" (I should really rename the thread title). The only real reason for bringing the beamspring into the mix now at all is to establish that DMA's controller will work for both. We would like a landmark controller that gets rid of some of the xWhatsit hiccups. Tom Wong's work is incredible, but we have occasional issues that have to be accounted for with frequency tuning (single value across the board... not on a per switch basis). DMA is pushing that a bit further for the F, and we want to validate the beamspring likes it is as well (even though the capacitive sensing of it is substantially different).


This thread at this point is really more of a chat room for folks with common interests. We will open some new threads in the future when we get dialed in on new initiatives that are more specific. I have A LOT of data to drop, but I am waiting because I really want MF Phase 1 in everyone's hands. It is important to me that we don't actually pursue new fairy tales until we produce the one that people are counting on. All steps along the journey
Techno Trousers wrote: I meant to ask about your comment that the MF♭ barrels will be anchored at all four corners from below. Does this eliminate the need for a top plate and foam (assuming something clever could be done for stabilizer mounting)? I was imagining your "floating plate" idea, with transparent barrels all around the edges, and no top plate, just the bottom plate, PCB, barrels, and key caps. Maybe some LED lighting, just to pump up the art factor. That would definitely look different than anything that's ever come before.
It wouldn't... we won't be able to utilize all four corners of almost any barrel because of the routing issues that DMA brought up (along with having an obnoxious amount of screws). We just want the standard design (one mold) to allow us to do anything we want. Also... that top plate, and as many mixed layers as possible, above the barrel plays a wonderful role at killing verberation. I have tried "no foam" or "alternative foam" as experiments a LOT at this point. it's something we want there. We had a roll die made for our silicone sleeves in that layer with measurements that would work for the flat as well. We are in a good spot going forward.

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Wingklip

20 Mar 2017, 07:56

We could always redesign the cherry mx housing to be a solid piece instead of being so needlessly complex. Like I would think of putting a pcb inside the switch itself as a discrete unit for capsensing. That would provide lots of compatibility. Perhaps we could work out some way of inverting the beam spring design so instead of lifting the flyplate off the board It would collide with it? That is my current goal right now.

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Wingklip

20 Mar 2017, 07:58

(accidental duplicate)
Last edited by Wingklip on 20 Mar 2017, 12:17, edited 1 time in total.

DMA

20 Mar 2017, 09:26

Wingklip wrote: Is this becoming a beam spring conversion project on the side too?
Sorry for a little topic hijacking, Sir. It's just there's parallel GB for the beamspring xwhatsit somewhat linked to MF one. Might as well care for those guys too, because otherwise they have a chance of not getting anything.
lot_lizard wrote: we won't be able to utilize all four corners of almost any barrel because of the routing issues that DMA brought up
Well, I really need to finish at least basic firmware before delving into this, but looking at beamsprings' flyplate-PCB gap when key is pressed I would think one can get away with shaving quarter of the pad on the dot's side (I suspect those are there for the flippers' "legs" to rest on so they're level with the copper, not just for aestetics, btw). If you look closely, there's a gap there between PCB and a flipper there, so it shouldn't contribute to the signal. (I also suspect you'll need to redesign flippers for the flat PCB - will test for that too). The space reclaimed can be used for traces.
Those experiments are cheap to run, thanks to your gift of those F122 PCBs.

As a side note I would also think adding vias to pads will boost signal greatly - but this is trickier to test without producing the new PCB, because you REALLY want to keep that top copper flat. I'll try doing it, lots of experimental PCBs left for 10+ attempts (122 attempts per PCB, actually :) )

Also worth running rows right thru those dots and seeing how that will go. That's even harder to do on existing PCB though, and you can't get away with a single key here - like, 2x3 keys is the bare minimum needed because you'll need to look at what happens in adjacent row too.
In theory, this can be done with copper tape from craft store. In reality one needs to be like lvl80 coppersmith to do this in a reasonable time though :)

IOW, there are ways around that. Might be expensive to prototype though.

Techno, LED lighting is allegedly harder and out of question - people keep telling me those things are NOISY. Don't have any around though (well, I do have a side project about making a huge-ass ~150W RGB LED lamp for the living room as a daylight extender (ideally shifting the sunset couple of hours, color temperature-wise - adding blue first, then white, then slowly fading with yellowing) - but that's a completely different story.).
lot_lizard wrote: (along with having an obnoxious amount of screws).
That's called "steampunk" and has quite a following. You'll have to make those screws from brass, though.

As for HHKB beamspring - I don't see any problems making that, you just need a beamspring keyboard for switches and caps and a metal shop nearby. Every bend is nice 90 degrees, nothing fancy. That would be an ISO-only thing, of course (because ANSI enter wasn't yet invented) and you'll have to creatively use that numpad 0 for a spacebar. But otherwise, what prevents you guys?

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lot_lizard

20 Mar 2017, 16:00

@fohat... thanks again for lending me the key cap puller for 2 piece caps. It will be mailed back tomorrow. Below are the dimensions (mm) for anyone that might be interested. We will eventually slap some mesh together and print this up. The design of the handle might change a bit, but the important part would be an exact duplicate. It is 9.9mm wide
Screen Shot 2017-03-20 at 9.57.08 AM.png
Screen Shot 2017-03-20 at 9.57.08 AM.png (214.91 KiB) Viewed 1518 times

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fohat
Elder Messenger

20 Mar 2017, 16:44

In my opinion, the lip shown at the bottom right is crucial to catching just the thickness of the cap and not the stem, and the long "tongue" at the top right needs to hold the device snug against the cap.

My concerns about the material is that it be strong enough that the lip not shear off, and that it has the right flex for the arm ("tongue")to keep it pressed against the cap at the proper pressure.

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livingspeedbump
Not what they seem

20 Mar 2017, 19:50

webwit wrote: HHKB beamspring. Come to the duck. :ugeek:
I would get rid of every single other keyboard I had if it would make this happen. :D

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lot_lizard

20 Mar 2017, 20:40

fohat wrote: My concerns about the material is that it be strong enough that the lip not shear off, and that it has the right flex for the arm ("tongue")to keep it pressed against the cap at the proper pressure.
It might take a couple of goes at it to the get the "tongue" right in printed form. As long as we use a plastic that is stronger than the original (this co-poly stuff is), the lip should be good. It might take making the "tongue" cut depth deeper though to get the right pressure. Will have to see, but I think we can get something very close after a few attempts

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Wingklip

21 Mar 2017, 15:08

lot_lizard wrote:
fohat wrote: My concerns about the material is that it be strong enough that the lip not shear off, and that it has the right flex for the arm ("tongue")to keep it pressed against the cap at the proper pressure.
It might take a couple of goes at it to the get the "tongue" right in printed form. As long as we use a plastic that is stronger than the original (this co-poly stuff is), the lip should be good. It might take making the "tongue" cut depth deeper though to get the right pressure. Will have to see, but I think we can get something very close after a few attempts
Bake annealed PLA is the best for this. Just try to print the highest accuracy and slowly too

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Techno Trousers
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09 Jul 2017, 03:05

I'm just going to drop this link in here while I'm thinking of it. Lot_lizard, the Team MF world headquarters NEEDS one of these specialized spring to paddle applicator tools. It's so delightfully over engineered!

viewtopic.php?p=378755#p378755

Rimrul

09 Jul 2017, 10:01

From a german perspective it's at the same time delightfully over-engineered and grossly under-engineered. :lol:

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lot_lizard

11 Jul 2017, 03:46

Hahaha... love it. I should take some pictures of ours someday. This one you posted is almost a modified bullet/shot shell press. Again... upside to our hair-brained design is that we can do 10 (close, can't remember) at once, but the concept is quite similar. Either way, the work is done on our cleaning/reassembly already.

Long needed note... Baby girl is is the green with everything. I don't want to jinx it, but we are proceeding perfectly this second go round. Our project(s) will come back (just like baby girl). I might rename the first project after her if the little trooper crushes of all this darkness. Appreciate the wishes from everyone. It's good to know DT has their head straight, and makes me respect our community even more.

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drevyek

11 Jul 2017, 04:41

I'm knocking on all the wood in my apartment! Really great news! :D

DMA

11 Jul 2017, 06:44

lot_lizard wrote: I don't want to jinx it, but we are proceeding perfectly this second go round.
Keep it on track! Good luck to you!

I may have less time in coming 2 months with all this facebook bootcamp stuff - but if you'll spring back with Project MF I'll do my part, I promise.

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Techno Trousers
100,000,000 actuations

11 Jul 2017, 06:47

Thanks so much for checking in, lot_lizard. It'll be so great when she and the project are back.

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002
Topre Enthusiast

11 Jul 2017, 06:49

Great news :)

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Spaceman1200

11 Jul 2017, 08:00

Thanks for the good news, glad your daughter is doing better! Try and enjoy the nice summer weather if you guys can!

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just_add_coffee

11 Jul 2017, 23:23

lot_lizard wrote: Baby girl is is the green with everything. I don't want to jinx it, but we are proceeding perfectly this second go round.
Wonderful to hear! Thoughts are definitely gonna continue to be with you.
It's good to know DT has their head straight...
I wouldn't go that far. I'm still not sure that our shared obsession isn't indicative of some sort of mental illness. :D

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wobbled

11 Jul 2017, 23:26

just_add_coffee wrote:
lot_lizard wrote: Baby girl is is the green with everything. I don't want to jinx it, but we are proceeding perfectly this second go round.
Wonderful to hear! Thoughts are definitely gonna continue to be with you.
It's good to know DT has their head straight...
I wouldn't go that far. I'm still not sure that our shared obsession isn't indicative of some sort of mental illness. :D
Oh it definitely is, I'm pretty sure I'm at the very least semi retarded. if I see a model f 4704 I drool.

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xTek

16 Jul 2017, 10:37

I love the idea of this project. This is the best thing ever. Will we ever see something like this (phase 2) being available for buying?

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Wingklip

16 Jul 2017, 10:39

Not very soon, probably not until the end of this year. I am however interested in a kit and a barrel plate too as I have munted mine really hard trying to do a "bolt mod" using a soldering iron

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Hypersphere

16 Jul 2017, 15:59

lot_lizard wrote: Hahaha... love it. I should take some pictures of ours someday. This one you posted is almost a modified bullet/shot shell press. Again... upside to our hair-brained design is that we can do 10 (close, can't remember) at once, but the concept is quite similar. Either way, the work is done on our cleaning/reassembly already.

Long needed note... Baby girl is is the green with everything. I don't want to jinx it, but we are proceeding perfectly this second go round. Our project(s) will come back (just like baby girl). I might rename the first project after her if the little trooper crushes of all this darkness. Appreciate the wishes from everyone. It's good to know DT has their head straight, and makes me respect our community even more.
Great news about baby girl!

gianni

12 Aug 2017, 11:45

Probably some of you could imagine a cleaner process to silence the stems, since you've gone so far to imagine a fantastic stem compatible with cherry!

workshop-f7/buckling-spring-silencing-t16550.html

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Techno Trousers
100,000,000 actuations

12 Aug 2017, 18:11

I've been a little bit afraid to bump this thread, but now that it's bumped, how's everyone doing? I've been watching progress on the F62/F77 project with a bit of envy. I'm especially curious about the spring vendor he's using with the crazy tight tolerances, but it doesn't sound like he opted for stainless steel (he mentioned that they look identical to the original springs).

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emdude
Model M Apologist

12 Aug 2017, 19:13

When will lot_lizard return from the war?
Spoiler:
Image

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drevyek

12 Aug 2017, 19:45

I just got a new job, and, as I feared, they're a little iffy on clicky keyboards. So either this will be for home use only, or I'll need to find a way to damp away some of the noise. (In the meantime, I've shacked up with a FC980C)

So I'll all ears about good ways to silence. Do we have a list of all the options we've discussed so far?

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Techno Trousers
100,000,000 actuations

12 Aug 2017, 19:48

IIRC, we have the proven floss mod, DMA's dab of silicone on the flipper, and some unproven theories about possible barrel modifications.

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