(Model MF) Remodeling the Model M (aka.. the Mara)

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Muirium
µ

13 Jan 2019, 21:08

wcass wrote:
13 Jan 2019, 20:05
Next version of XTant pad card will have pin out so that CY8CKIT-059 can be connected with standard header pins.
Common Sense is the new standard. I wonder if that pin out will be the right one for a Bluetooth version of the controller, too. Hope so.

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tentator

13 Jan 2019, 22:10

I'm understanding from DMA that the pinout seems to be pretty standard, something like:
Model Fs: 2 pins GND, 8 pins ROWS, 2 pins GND, 16 pins COLS, 2 pins GND (totalling 30 pins)
Beamsprings: 1 pin GND, 24 pins COLS, 1 ping GND, 4 pins ROWS (totalling 30 pins)
But maybe some expert can point out on web resources about those connector pinouts, to stay as "standard" as possible.. even though I guess IBM was surely having some crazy pinout in some particular ones instead..

Still I confirm that making the new Model Mara bluetooth would really be nice!

tent:wq

DMA

13 Jan 2019, 22:19

wcass wrote:
13 Jan 2019, 20:05
Next version of XTant pad card will have pin out so that CY8CKIT-059 can be connected with standard header pins.
Actually, if you're going for this at any scale - controller can be shrunk to something like 13x18mm castellated.
There's a small problem of bootstrapping the firmware - but easily solved.

Oh, @lot_lizard, forgot to mention - CS supports topre without any modifications to CS, soldered in place of a standard topre controller. I have a patient zero on my table at work but for some reason not using it :)

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pyrelink

14 Jan 2019, 08:13

Wow what a way to start the year. Welcome back Lot Lizard!

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alh84001
v.001

18 Jan 2019, 01:15

Hell yeah! Welcome back LL!

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ramnes
ПБТ НАВСЕГДА

18 Jan 2019, 22:29

Oh my! I'm so glad to have you back with us my friend!

Humanoid

24 Jan 2019, 00:36

Did the spectroscopy lab ever get back with the results for the material used in the flipper? I think the last mention regarding this was that the lab lost the flipper. But I didn't see any more news after this.

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wcass

24 Jan 2019, 04:59

Carbon black is commonly used as a filler in plastic. A side effect of this is that the plastic has a capacitive element.

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XMIT
[ XMIT ]

24 Jan 2019, 19:08

You need spectroscopy? I have a friend who is a professor at a top tier technical university, maybe I can get some help here. Send me a PM about exactly what you need.

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Hypersphere

25 Jan 2019, 00:55

@XMIT: Speaking of spectroscopy, were you ever able to get the blue Alps lubricant analyzed?

Humanoid

25 Jan 2019, 02:17

It was just the flippers that I was curious about. It would be nice if we had the exact makeup posted in this public thread for future reference, in case anybody else ever wants to try to recreate them. See page 2 of this thread:
lot_lizard wrote:
24 May 2016, 00:49
I have sent the flipper off for FTIR testing to finally understand what they are REALLY made of. I know the conductive properties of the plastic flipper using reasonable equipment, but would like to get the exact polymer/ash/etc ratio if possible before proceeding.

I know Ellipse has worked up the following for the barrel and flipper in his F62/77 project:
  • Barrel Material: ABS POLYLAC PA-757
  • Flipper Material: Torayca ASHT-18A
But the price of testing is very reasonable to confirm these properties.
There are probably better materials available these days than what was used in the original model F, but still, it would be nice for everybody to know the originals.

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Techno Trousers
100,000,000 actuations

25 Jan 2019, 20:09

Lot_lizard, it's been a few weeks. How are you doing on the catch-up? Do you have plans yet for moving forward with Mara?

If there's any way I can help, I'm happy to mix in.

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XMIT
[ XMIT ]

25 Jan 2019, 21:46

Hypersphere wrote:
25 Jan 2019, 00:55
@XMIT: Speaking of spectroscopy, were you ever able to get the blue Alps lubricant analyzed?
Well drat, I forgot to bring a blue Alps switch with me the last time I went to Boston. Let me talk to my friend and see what he has available. I can't recall if I sent him a switch to test or not...

Biont

30 Jan 2019, 23:39

Hello everyone! This is my first post here so please for give me if I'm stepping on anyone's toes.
I am currently working on a case-mod for my Model M (because stupid me ruined the original case so I might as well get fancy) and while I do still have the original keycaps, I would very much like to try Cherry caps even if just for the extreme range of options. I googled around for some "buckling spring 2 cherry" adapter and quickly found this thread. However, the .stl-file of that adapter (as well as the space bar adapter) do not seem to be available for download.

Could you please share those files, lot-lizard? I have found a github-repository, but it did not contain those files either.

Thank you very much in advance!

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wcass

31 Jan 2019, 01:47

I don't think the files were posted yet - and certainly not in this thread.
The last i heard, the print quality was not quite good enough yet to actually ... work.
When the quality is good enough, i have one silver wingnut that i would very much like to mount.

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Muirium
µ

31 Jan 2019, 15:11

Adapters seem like an excellent idea but they don’t work well in practice. I recall there’s a picture of these BS to MX adapters in action (can’t seem to find it) where the caps sit real high and wobbly. I’ve used Alps to MX adapters myself and they suffer exactly the same problem. You have to seat the cap higher up, and that leads to a bizarre look and too much leverage on the slider so you wind up teetering about up there. Not great.

Besides, buckling spring caps don’t have to be boring:

https://www.etsy.com/uk/shop/DecentKeyboards

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FXT
XT

31 Jan 2019, 17:22

Muirium wrote:
31 Jan 2019, 15:11
Adapters seem like an excellent idea but they don’t work well in practice. I recall there’s a picture of these BS to MX adapters in action (can’t seem to find it) where the caps sit real high and wobbly. I’ve used Alps to MX adapters myself and they suffer exactly the same problem. You have to seat the cap higher up, and that leads to a bizarre look and too much leverage on the slider so you wind up teetering about up there. Not great.

Besides, buckling spring caps don’t have to be boring:

https://www.etsy.com/uk/shop/DecentKeyboards
We still don't have any spherical cap options though.

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mattlach

31 Jan 2019, 19:42

Muirium wrote:
31 Jan 2019, 15:11
Adapters seem like an excellent idea but they don’t work well in practice. I recall there’s a picture of these BS to MX adapters in action (can’t seem to find it) where the caps sit real high and wobbly. I’ve used Alps to MX adapters myself and they suffer exactly the same problem. You have to seat the cap higher up, and that leads to a bizarre look and too much leverage on the slider so you wind up teetering about up there. Not great.

Besides, buckling spring caps don’t have to be boring:

https://www.etsy.com/uk/shop/DecentKeyboards
There was pas as part of this thread dating back to 2016 about including redesigned key stems with a MX style stem on top.

I'm guessing that has fallen by the wayside?

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Muirium
µ

31 Jan 2019, 20:46

The whole thing has arguably fallen to the wayside until very recently.

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mattlach

31 Jan 2019, 21:43

FXT wrote:
31 Jan 2019, 17:22
Muirium wrote:
31 Jan 2019, 15:11
Adapters seem like an excellent idea but they don’t work well in practice. I recall there’s a picture of these BS to MX adapters in action (can’t seem to find it) where the caps sit real high and wobbly. I’ve used Alps to MX adapters myself and they suffer exactly the same problem. You have to seat the cap higher up, and that leads to a bizarre look and too much leverage on the slider so you wind up teetering about up there. Not great.

Besides, buckling spring caps don’t have to be boring:

https://www.etsy.com/uk/shop/DecentKeyboards
We still don't have any spherical cap options though.
I don't even know what those are. You mean like those god awful fake old typewriter caps that the hipsters are using? :p

I'd really like transparent stems and doubleshot PBT caps, so I can custom install some backlighting.

I'm a night owl, and my touch typing falls apart when there are special characters and things like that. I really like to see the keyboard legends in the dark.

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mattlach

31 Jan 2019, 21:49

__red__ wrote:
26 May 2018, 20:23
Designing the PCBs isn't hard. I could do it in an afternoon.

What's hard is sourcing barrels and flippers.
I wonder where Ellipse sources his for his F62 & F77 Group Buy project.

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mattlach

31 Jan 2019, 21:58

lot_lizard wrote:
10 Jan 2019, 02:14
How widespread is the model F movement now (like really)? I did learn we are still waiting on other F projects, but saw some OBNOXIOUS eBay items when I glanced in the last few days and it makes me question the scope of lurkers that now exist.

The reason for asking, are we bigger now than we were months/years ago? Does it make sense to produce exactly what we had on a larger level because the movement is bigger? If we keep current volumes, we will only exceed known demand (back then) by 30%, with the 30% targeting the general public to fund future experiments.
Well,

I can't speak for everyone else, but I just discovered this project today (and joined Deskthority over it) so definitely count me in. +1

Not quite sure what I am going to use as a donor. I have a few. Beige 90's Lexmark vintage M, Pristine black M13 Trackpoint II or one of my Unicomps but all I know is I WANT THIS.

(I also want those MX keycap stems, but it sounds like that may be an abandoned historical concept?
Last edited by mattlach on 31 Jan 2019, 22:12, edited 1 time in total.

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mattlach

31 Jan 2019, 22:02

Muirium wrote:
10 Jan 2019, 19:58
Doing a TKL chop is quite a daunting challenge for most of us! Easily enough to put a lot of interested people off. If someone was willing to do it for them, however…

But yeah, sounds like there’s a full-size MF as well as SSK, so that should help suit everyone.
Well, I'm going to go ahead and be a little bit of a contrarian


I have absolutely zero interest in TKL or 60% anything of any kind, even if they were free. I have never understood the appeal of the small form factor boards.

For me it's Full Size IBM Enhanced keyboard layout, or I'm out.

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Muirium
µ

31 Jan 2019, 22:05

Sphericals:

Image

MX, naturally. Although the keyboard here is Topre, an MX compatible Novatouch.

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mattlach

31 Jan 2019, 22:07

hansichen wrote:
10 Jan 2019, 20:25
Though keep in mind that you also need more barrels and flippers for a full-size board. With the current Model F prices you already invest quite a bit of money into it to source all the parts so you might wanna go for the board which suits you the best in the end.

I'm personally interested in an SSK upgrade :D
I do not have any F's at the moment. I'm not oppoased to hanging out on eBay in the hunt for one.

Do Unicomps PC122 boards use M internals or F Switches and Barrels? I'd happily buy one of those and harvest it.

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Muirium
µ

31 Jan 2019, 22:09

Unicomp is M only. You need a vintage F as a donor. Which is the main thing keeping this a relatively small group project, I think.

Full-size is supported. In part because SSKs are just as rare and pricey.

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mattlach

31 Jan 2019, 22:14

Muirium wrote:
31 Jan 2019, 22:09
Unicomp is M only. You need a vintage F as a donor. Which is the main thing keeping this a relatively small group project, I think.

Full-size is supported. In part because SSKs are just as rare and pricey.
Ahh, That's unfortunate. The PC122 they use threw me into thinking it might be the same on the inside as the old ones.

Weren't there a bunch of Model F's made for Terminal use that are pretty much unusable junk these days? Those would seem to be perfect donors.

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Muirium
µ

31 Jan 2019, 22:17

If Model F guts were so easy to buy new, even I’d have a few Unicomp 122s, and I’m a TKL and 60% guy!

The only new source is Ellipse, the guy making reproduction Kishsavers in China. And he’s expensive. Worth talking to him though, he knows his stuff and has the gory stories!

Feel free to browse eBay to learn a thing or two about the going rate for 122 key Model Fs. They’re very usable nowadays, and quite prized.

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mattlach

31 Jan 2019, 22:27

Muirium wrote:
31 Jan 2019, 22:17
If Model F guts were so easy to buy new, even I’d have a few Unicomp 122s, and I’m a TKL and 60% guy!

The only new source is Ellipse, the guy making reproduction Kishsavers in China. And he’s expensive. Worth talking to him though, he knows his stuff and has the gory stories!

Feel free to browse eBay to learn a thing or two about the going rate for 122 key Model Fs. They’re very usable nowadays, and quite prized.
Hmm.

I see the problem. They are crazy expensive, and most of them are the fewer key varieties (83?), so there wouldn't be enough switches to harvest.

Well, that certainly makes this more difficult. :(

I could buy these, but I'm no monster. I'm not sure I'd want to rip apart a fully functioning collectors item to harvest internals... I'm no monster...

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Muirium
µ

31 Jan 2019, 22:32

Look for the good old XT keyboard. That’s our sacrificial lamb of choice! And welcome to keyboard carnivore club!

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