Help with lubing Alps

[M4dn3ss]

If you've seen my previous posts you might know that I have a bunch of blue Alps switches I plan on using for a project but they don't feel very good. I've cleaned them with isopropyl alcohol and blasted them in an ultrasonic cleaner and they are still stiff and scratchy. So I thought the next step would be to try lubing them.

I first tried MoS2 powder on some, applying it to the slider and top housing, and aside from the mess, they felt even worse (being in powdered form probably increased the feeling of scratchiness inside the switch). So MoS2 is out of the question.
(Correction: One of the batches of switches I acquired were already lubed by the previous owner with powdered MoS2, and they were still scratchy - but I also lubed a couple of the clean switches with it too with similar results)

Then I tried Finish Line dry lube with Teflon to the sliders and top housings. I know nothing about lubricants but isn't this stuff supposed to leave a dry residue? Well it feels more like thick grease when it dries. Anyway, it didn't help either. Notably, the switches bind pretty badly when pressing them from the top left corner.

I'm out of ideas... and I don't like the Matias clickies so that isn't an option either.

[fohat]

I did one Alps keyboard with a spray-on dry lube (sliders only) that actually dried dry and worked pretty well.

You only use a very light spray and let it dry thoroughly.

And, as always, follow manufacturer's recommendations and directions to the letter, and don't assume that it is safe for plastic unless it says "safe for plastic" ....

[seebart]

Not sure if you know M4dn3ss but when Alps SKCM are very worn down they are stiff and scratchy and there is little to nothing you can do. PTFE dry-lube might help a bit but obviously you won't get a new switch. Myself and others have said it many times: the biggest drawback of Alps SKCM / SKCL is that they age badly and are dirt prone. Depending on where you are located you might want to start looking for other Alps SKCM keyboards / switches.

[Chyros]

You can replace some parts to try and mitigate the damage perhaps. Often the top housings get worn down, which are some of the biggest friction points. If your sliders are crap, and the lube on them is useless anyway, you can replace those too.

[purdobol]

... Myself and others have said it many times: the biggest drawback of Alps SKCM / SKCL is that they age badly and are dirt prone...

Wouldn't say they age badly per se to be honest. They're prone to dust, so the moment they start to feel off, scratchy or start to bind... it's cleaning time. Thorough cleaning of every switch, should keep them in good condition.

Problem with this of course is, that back in a day nobody bothered. And ongoing use in such conditions will destroy any switch eventually.

[seebart]

Wouldn't say they age badly per se to be honest.

Compared to other switches yes very much so. I guess Alps Electric did not design SKCM to last decades. Of course all this is very well known.

[purdobol]

Again can't agree. There's nothing in alps switches that make them "go bad" over time. Assuming of course we mean the same thing by the term "aging". The plastic used doesn't become brittle, the contacts don't corode at alarming rate etc.

So for example. If we took one brand new cherry board and one alps board, and just put them both in basement, just sitting there gathering dust. And pul them out 10 years later. Cherry would fell good, and alps would feel like crap until cleaned.

Come to think of it, nobody would by alps board today if it wasn't the case.

The switches I would put in the category "they age badly" are:
Futabas - where supposedly the rubber bulges with time, which change the feel of the switch. Doesn't matter if the board is used or unused.
Foam and foil - where the foam just falls apart by itself over time.

Well it's just my opinion. Dont want to derail the tread anymore

[seebart]

It is very well known that the parts that make contact wear down over years, posssibly you have got no clue what you are talking about. I'm trying to help you here not "derail". Many many people will tell you the same thing. Yes Cherry MX does not have the same problems due it's construction, even though MX wears down also, just not as "fast" as SKCM. The only people still buying Alps keyboards today are mechanical keyboard enthusiasts like us.

It may actually be the case that your blue Alps are only dirty and not worn, that does not change anything about the facts about the construction of Alps SKCM and how they wear down over years of usage.

[purdobol]

As I suspected. You're talking about years of usage. I'm talking about aging as in just sitting there.
I'm not the OP by the way.

[seebart]

Right, if you happen to know that particular keyboard has not been used much that's very good and then its worth cleaning!

[M4dn3ss]

Even if the plastic is physically worn though, shouldn't a decent layer of lube help reduce the friction, which it doesn't seem to be doing?

Alternatively, are my expectations too high? For what it's worth, I have a bunch of loose white Alps from someone who had taken them from a board that was brand new in box, so they should be as good as they get. And yet even these have some binding on corner keypresses.

From swapping parts between the white and blue it seems that the slider and top housing are the main culprits, as I expected. A 'dirty' switchplate ('dirty' in quotation marks because they don't look visibly dirty but a bit of isopropyl alcohol fixes it up pretty nicely) can also increase friction.

One of the blue Alps batches I bought was already lubed with MoS2 by the previous owner, and he said they were not perfect "but they turned out great as well", but to me I would rate the feel as being far worse than Cherry MX blue.

[seebart]

Even if the plastic is physically worn though, shouldn't a decent layer of lube help reduce the friction, which it doesn't seem to be doing?

Yes it should help somewhat.

Alternatively, are my expectations too high?

Have you tried clean non worn white or blue Alps SKCM?

[codemonkeymike]

If you have an ultrasonic cleaner you could drop everything except for the switch plate in there. I found that my switches sometimes needed 3-4 cycles to get all the junk off, now after that with a very small amount of Teflon lube at the base of the slider, too much will make it feel grainy which may be what issue tour having.

[wobbled]

Slap some GT85 on them! I just tried it on topre and they feel incredible

[seebart]

Slap some GT85 on them! I just tried it on topre and they feel incredible

I believe you, but Alps are not Topre.

If you have an ultrasonic cleaner you could drop everything except for the switch plate in there. I found that my switches sometimes needed 3-4 cycles to get all the junk off, now after that with a very small amount of Teflon lube at the base of the slider, too much will make it feel grainy which may be what issue tour having.

Very good point!

[M4dn3ss]

If you have an ultrasonic cleaner you could drop everything except for the switch plate in there. I found that my switches sometimes needed 3-4 cycles to get all the junk off, now after that with a very small amount of Teflon lube at the base of the slider, too much will make it feel grainy which may be what issue tour having.

Hmm, how does lubing the base of the slider help, instead of the grooves that make contact with the rails in the top housing?

[codemonkeymike]

If you have an ultrasonic cleaner you could drop everything except for the switch plate in there. I found that my switches sometimes needed 3-4 cycles to get all the junk off, now after that with a very small amount of Teflon lube at the base of the slider, too much will make it feel grainy which may be what issue tour having.

Hmm, how does lubing the base of the slider help, instead of the grooves that make contact with the rails in the top housing?

The base of the slider gets in contact with the switch plate leaf and the click leaf, so it smooths over that metal on plastic friction. Now I would just clean the switch then do the minimum lubrication and test it out but if you are going above and beyond then the slider rails can be lubricated with a thin Teflon grease, your results may vary. I tried it on a couple switches and didn't seem to do much, search up the "geekhack cherry lubrication guide" in the op there should be a mention on which lubricant to use on slider rails. I don't have the lubricant I used on hand to check for you because I'm on vacation. Using Teflon grease on the leaf side of the slider seems to be a bad idea in my tests, makes the switch sluggish and the lubricant gets pushed to the side quite fast not to mention longevity which is an unknown factor.

[flowerlandfilms]

Having made multiple attempts at modifying Alps for various reasons, I can tell you the slider plastic on my mid 90s white dampened Alps is very brittle and difficult to work with.
I do not know how brittle they were to begin with but i suspect the plastic does indeed worsen over time.

[2ter]

i would never use alcohol to clean plastic because it can damage the plastic surfaces.
if you really need to use a solvent to get rid of sticky or oily residues you should first try with dish soap dissolved in lots of water and if necessary put some drops of alcohol into the solution.

[consolation]

While I agree, some of the switches that had "dry" lube coating require isopropyl to remove it. Alps plastic doesn't seem sensitive to it.

I had to "fix" a batch of oranges when making a board for a friend, the donor keyboard he found was... let's say wholemeal. What worked for me is to soak the parts overnight, then use a hair dryer to warm them up so they are hot to touch (not melting or burning, just very warm.) Sprayed a THIN coating of dry PTFE lube on the inside of the cases and sliders and left to cure (they actually sat for a week, as it took me a while to get back to the project, but I'd leave it for 24hrs at least.)

They weren't 100% new but, after assembly and a week of daily driver duties, ~90% of arbitrary "pleasure to use" units. At that point I handed the keyboard to the new owner, haven't had any complaints. I found that dry PTFE spray worked best, but unlike OP's, mine dried into an invisible hard layer. Perhaps if the original lubricant isn't removed, the solvent in the spray, can lift it off to create the tacky gunk described?

[orihalcon]

In the end, do you care that the sliders stay blue in color? If not, then get some better condition Orange Alps and put the blue click leaves and blue springs in them and you will end up with what is equivalent to Blue Alps as far as I know, but the slider will be orange. Not great for showing a Blue Alps off in pictures due to the Non-Blue sliders, but if the feel is what you are after, would do that.

You could send the bad stems and housings to me and I could do some experiments to see if there's anything I can do to bring them back. Personally, I must have had pretty good luck with my blues. Even if they look dirty, they have always responded to cleaning for me, though apparently this is not the norm. Would love to try some that have been found to be "bad" beyond cleaning if anyone has some. My thought would be I'd see what I can do and send at least some of them them back to the original owner to see if they think my cleaning or experiments did anything worthwhile as perhaps I just am not as sensitive to the inherent scratchiness?

[seebart]

I've had similair experiences with Salmon Alps in two Apple M0116's. One feels great and the other one is scratchy and binding like you've never seen before. I took both apart and both looked clean in detail under magnification with no visible wear. That's Alps SKCM for you right there. Really just baffling.

[M4dn3ss]

In the end, do you care that the sliders stay blue in color? If not, then get some better condition Orange Alps and put the blue click leaves and blue springs in them and you will end up with what is equivalent to Blue Alps as far as I know, but the slider will be orange. Not great for showing a Blue Alps off in pictures due to the Non-Blue sliders, but if the feel is what you are after, would do that.

You could send the bad stems and housings to me and I could do some experiments to see if there's anything I can do to bring them back. Personally, I must have had pretty good luck with my blues. Even if they look dirty, they have always responded to cleaning for me, though apparently this is not the norm. Would love to try some that have been found to be "bad" beyond cleaning if anyone has some. My thought would be I'd see what I can do and send at least some of them them back to the original owner to see if they think my cleaning or experiments did anything worthwhile as perhaps I just am not as sensitive to the inherent scratchiness?

Actually, I bought some of them from you a while back. How would have you rated them, in retrospect?

No I don't care about the slider colour, but I prefer the look of the Orange Alps anyway. Blue switches are a dime a dozen (thanks Cherry MX blue + clones), but orange is far more exciting

I experimented with swapping parts with unused clean White Alps as well as Matias Quiet Click and the main culprits seem to be the slider and housing (unsurprisingly)

Alternatively, are my expectations too high?

Have you tried clean non worn white or blue Alps SKCM?

I've had a Focus FK2001 since I was a kid but I have no memory on how they use to feel like... after years of sitting around in the house they're a tad dusty and feel pretty rough.

As I mentioned I've also got some loose white Alps from someone who had desoldered them from a completely new board, and they still have some binding when pressed from certain angles.

I do have an allegedly clean and unused blue Alps board coming in the mail soon so hopefully they're good enough for me! Eventually I'll sell off my excess switches that didn't make the cut, if they're not good enough for me maybe they'll be good enough for someone else

[seebart]

I do have an allegedly clean and unused blue Alps board coming in the mail soon so hopefully they're good enough for me!

If you know those are clean and not worn down and you still don't like them it's time to try other switches.

[M4dn3ss]

I do have an allegedly clean and unused blue Alps board coming in the mail soon so hopefully they're good enough for me!

If you know those are clean and not worn down and you still don't like them it's time to try other switches.

I know what clean Alps feel like since I have a handful of clean ones, that's why I continued to pursue it. I received the board and I think it's about as good as it gets.

I tested the Finish Line dry lube on a sacrificial piece of plastic, and after leaving it for a couple of weeks it's definitely greasy, I feel a bit ripped off that it isn't exactly dry, is it really supposed to be like this?

An observation I had is that when a complicated Alps switch is clean and in excellent condition, it's the switchplate that is responsible for any remaining hints of binding on off-centre keypresses. The switches objectively feel better without a switchplate than with one, too bad it's required for the switch to actually work.

In slightly related news, XMIT's second round of clicky/tactile Hall Effect switches could potentially feel amazing if they contain a click/tactile leaf, like Alps but much smoother.

[seebart]

I tested the Finish Line dry lube on a sacrificial piece of plastic, and after leaving it for a couple of weeks it's definitely greasy, I feel a bit ripped off that it isn't exactly dry, is it really supposed to be like this?

No. What exactly is "Finish Line dry lube"? You should use PTFE spray. Some people here say du pont krytox is the best lubricant but it's very expensive. I've had decent results with regular PTFE spray. Remember that lubing Alps SKCM is NOT the optimal scenario, more like damage control.

[M4dn3ss]

I tested the Finish Line dry lube on a sacrificial piece of plastic, and after leaving it for a couple of weeks it's definitely greasy, I feel a bit ripped off that it isn't exactly dry, is it really supposed to be like this?

No. What exactly is "Finish Line dry lube"? You should use PTFE spray. Some people here say du pont krytox is the best lubricant but it's very expensive. I've had decent results with regular PTFE spray. Remember that lubing Alps SKCM is NOT the optimal scenario, more like damage control.

http://www.finishlineusa.com/products/c ... s/dry-lube
I used it because it was recommended as being good for Alps switches, and it is PTFE. Either way, I'm definitely not seeing how this is "dry" which seems like false advertising to me, but I don't know anything about lubricants which is why I'm asking.

On the other hand, everyone says non-dry lube shouldn't be used for Alps because it will attract dust so why recommend Krytox?

Counter point to the above: https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=8500.0
Apparently "limmy" on Geekhack finds no evidence that non-dry lube attracts dust in Alps switches. Thoughts?

Re "lubing Alps SKCM is NOT the optimal scenario, more like damage control": surely clean+lubed should be superior to clean+non lubed in terms of smoothness, for what reason would that not be the case?

[codemonkeymike]

Quote from their copy
"Finish Line's DRY Lube goes on wet and sets up with a dry 'wax-like' synthetic film"

A good Teflon lube should only leave Teflon behind after the fluids have evaporated. I use Teflon non-stick dry-film lubricant. As far as using oil lubricants attracting dust, I don't take one person's experience as fact. But don't let my opinions keep you from experimenting.

[seebart]

surely clean+lubed should be superior to clean+non lubed in terms of smoothness, for what reason would that not be the case?

NO! Because none of us are Alps Electric and none of these Alps SKCM are actually new out of the box. With your recent posts are proving yourself wrong, if it's sooo easy then what's the problem?! The best you can do it clean little or not used unlubed ones. Yes Krytox was recomended several times here but I never tried it myself becuase of the price. I'm never at GH so I don't know those people are lubing their Alps with.

[M4dn3ss]

surely clean+lubed should be superior to clean+non lubed in terms of smoothness, for what reason would that not be the case?

NO! Because none of us are Alps Electric and none of these Alps SKCM are actually new out of the box.

I know that none of us are Alps Electric and it has proven impossible to get any answers out of them. But I want to know how it is even possible at all for two switches, one lubed and one not, in otherwise identical condition, for the one with lube to not feel smoother than the other, because I can not think of any possible logical reason for that to be the case unless SKCM switches are made out of magical plastic that doesn't conform to the laws of physics. Surely someone knows why.