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Resin print keyboard parts factory

Posted: 08 Aug 2020, 01:20
by SneakyRobb
Hi,

I just got a resin printer and its fun. I figured I would collect various resin related things here. Such as why resin print etc. as well as my failures and learning.

The printer I bought is the elegoo mars. Its a pretty inexpensive machine.

I got this machine to make small plastic keyboard parts for beamspring, model f and blue alps. Which are my favourite keyboard switches.

Resin printing is a secondary sort of thing to all the projects that I do so I figured its in my own fashion to make a new thread for just this. I didn't want to clutter my extreme clutter threads with my trials and tribulations in producing the parts and learning how to print.

Why did I get a resin printer? User kralcifer sent me some parts on his machine for me to see the resolution and it was great so I had to get one. Here are the parts that Kralcifer sent me.
kralcifer 1.jpg
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kralcifer 2.jpg
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kralcifer3.jpg
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As you can see these parts are dimensionally very accurate and very smooth. This inspired me to move away from resin casting of beamspring parts, which was a major headache to just getting a resin printer.

I had posted in the Mara thread but I felt it was better to just make a new thread
viewtopic.php?p=469152#p469152

This wont be organized at all.

I want to basically make all the parts of beamspring model f and skcm blue.
That thread has my 2nd attempt at model f flippers on resin.

Here is my first model f flipper attempt. On fdm, or "normal" 3d printing attempt.
fdm compare 2.jpg
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fdm compare 3.jpg
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fdm compare.jpg
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So you can see, regardless of dimensional accuracy that this print is very rough. The surface is not smooth. It wont really work well. This is why resin printing is cool. The surface is smooth.

Here is my 2nd/3rd attempt at a model f flipper out of resin.

The smoothness is great. I need to fix this model as it doesnt click yet, but I'm just learning resin printing now so its good.
1.jpg
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1a.jpg
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2.jpg
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3.jpg
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4.jpg
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This print actually looks great. Really happy with the smoothness.

Here is is compared to an original.
compare v1.jpg
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compare v1 4.jpg
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compare v1 3.jpg
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compare v1 2.jpg
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This one had a slight issue where the spring didn't sit. The original actually has a little lip that keeps the spring on. So we will adjust that!
nub on model f flipper.jpg
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spring attach.jpg
spring attach.jpg (4.28 MiB) Viewed 9958 times
I have thought about making capacitive prints. I can either add carbon to make it capacitive. Maybe paint it on? Will test this soon. Not sure why it wouldn't work.
paint.jpg
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paint 2.jpg
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For the capacitive content I can only guess but ellipse reported 18% content. This sounds reasonable. As said in the Mara thread, the model f flipper has so much carbon, you can draw with it if broken. Please for give me.
pencil.jpg
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sad.jpg
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Will have to see about this.

For my blue alps project I wanted to make some alps parts. This somewhat turned out. Mostly due to my learning/ignorance I made some mistakes but here is a part I failed at the first time. You can see the resolution vs the original though. Very fine! The part here is not correctly formed but shows the power of resin printing.
resolution.jpg
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I used this plastic box lined with 405nm UV lights to cure the prints. Hi SneakyRobb here with the power of resin printing!
uv light curing box.jpg
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Now we wash the prototype in our patented Isopropyl jar with part holder! Don't mind the missed mustard seed...
wash jar 3.jpg
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This print was meant to have 3 parts. Due to my inexperience with supports only 1 worked.
oops 1.jpg
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So I clipped the working one of supports. My failures of the others were due to supports. On a normal printer supports hold up over hangs. On the resin printer, everything prints up-side-down. So supports have things hang off them. Totally different! You can see the slider supports with no slider.
bin for clip.jpg
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And what did we get? Now the slider I admit doesnt move that well. But. It fits. and the switch does click!!! For such a novice as myself, I can see the power and I hope you see it to.
alps compare.jpg
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alps compare 2.jpg
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alps compare 3.jpg
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fit 1.jpg
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fit 2.jpg
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fit 3.jpg
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I would like to make a tutorial here at some point soon, but I hope you can see the power of this technology through my clumsy first steps. The resolution and smoothness are absurd and might very well allow us to reach keyboard levels not previously possible.

Re: Resin print keyboard parts factory

Posted: 09 Aug 2020, 01:37
by SneakyRobb
Hi,

So I wanted to make some more stuff today so I did. Great.
maximum keyboard.JPG
maximum keyboard.JPG (111.91 KiB) Viewed 9861 times
This is what I wanted to make. So if you are print resin, it prints up-side-down. Like above. You can see how the supports are different

I had wanted to buy a nexus slider from a user but it didn't happen due to sadness. So I will just make one.
robb nexus v1.JPG
robb nexus v1.JPG (38.02 KiB) Viewed 9861 times

Anyway here is my cat Freddie as a kitten.
cat 1.JPG
cat 1.JPG (3.7 MiB) Viewed 9861 times

So I used elegoo translucent resin. Here after 90+ mins is the build plate.
YES 1.jpg
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yes 2.jpg
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yes 3.jpg
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I need to clean them but here are some of the parts pre-cure
top1.jpg
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robb nexus.jpg
robb nexus.jpg (3.69 MiB) Viewed 9861 times
skcm slider.jpg
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I really wanted to make the skcm slider and nexus so I did.

I will wait now for curing but happy so far.

Re: Resin print keyboard parts factory

Posted: 09 Aug 2020, 08:18
by matt3o
you really need to get better resin though :)

Re: Resin print keyboard parts factory

Posted: 11 Aug 2020, 22:58
by gianni
Brilliant, you have my attention :-)

Re: Resin print keyboard parts factory

Posted: 12 Aug 2020, 02:46
by SneakyRobb
matt3o wrote:
09 Aug 2020, 08:18
you really need to get better resin though :)
Aw. Any suggestions!? This one worked pretty well.
gianni wrote:
11 Aug 2020, 22:58
Brilliant, you have my attention :-)
Hey thanks.


Okay I figured I would use an actual camera to get some nice photos. Still learn.

Here is a compare between an alps switch opener made with my FDM printer vs the resin one.

In retrospect clear resin was not the best choice for photo taking, hard to see the details.

Tried to make this visible but the resin one is actually ultra smooth!
fdm and resin compare 2.JPG
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fdm and resin compare.JPG
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I had the alps switch shell opening facing the top of the build plate as it printed, this was not optimal printing technique as the opening was slightly weird. As well the lower housing clips are not that bendy, they are easy to brake off.
opening error.JPG
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Here are just various items in my current experiment box.
various items.JPG
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Here I will compare the stems for blue alps.
resin stem.JPG
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stems compare.JPG
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stems compare 2.JPG
stems compare 2.JPG (3.26 MiB) Viewed 9721 times
The resin stem actually works perfectly and no joke feels super smooth and excellent. Works perfectly! Really surprised. Printed it just to test before printing a 4x scale one.

The model f flipper is almost ready, but having slight issues trying to get the spring to stay on
items 1.JPG
items 1.JPG (3.14 MiB) Viewed 9721 times
The nexus slider came out great. As mentioned the original nexus slider had a spine down one side. I was not sure why this was there. When I tried it in the switch though I think I figured out out.

Regardless it looks great and I inserted into this random cherry mx keycap multiple times and no breaks or anything. Very excite.
new nexus 1.JPG
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new nexus 2.JPG
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new nexus 3.JPG
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Here you can see what happened to the click leaf. Some how the slider bent it slightly. It still clicks but not very well. I'm not 100% that this was the cause but I don't know why it would be bent otherwise. Perhaps the bottom of the keycap somehow compressed the clickleaf down. That spine might prevent this. I will add this to the next attempt. Don't remember if posted it before so here is the nexus spine and the bent click leaf.
nexus click leaf sad.JPG
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nexus spine.JPG
nexus spine.JPG (26.3 KiB) Viewed 9721 times

Re: Resin print keyboard parts factory

Posted: 13 Aug 2020, 11:44
by gianni
For your next project, I'd like to suggest printing IBM logos (for keyboards or old computers), like you already did in one colour.

It would be nice to replace some old IBM logos with a modern one, printed with the letters in relief (or carved), in two colours if it's supported.


viewtopic.php?t=18905

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/ ... sp=sharing

Re: Resin print keyboard parts factory

Posted: 13 Aug 2020, 11:45
by gianni
Will you make available the 3d model for the model f flippers? What file format are you using?


Another idea: printing key blockers for the model f (stem plus flat surface, level with the keyboard plane). This is useful since most users remap the model f at and xt, so removing the unused keycaps maybe nice and useful

Re: Resin print keyboard parts factory

Posted: 13 Aug 2020, 13:45
by sharktastica
Awesome stuff! I've been eyeing up the Elegoo Mars for a while now since it is decently well priced.

Re: Resin print keyboard parts factory

Posted: 13 Aug 2020, 16:04
by SneakyRobb
sharktastica wrote:
13 Aug 2020, 13:45
Awesome stuff! I've been eyeing up the Elegoo Mars for a while now since it is decently well priced.
Hi, its a great printer. Recommend getting it or the Saturn whenever it comes out.
gianni wrote:
13 Aug 2020, 11:45
For your next project, I'd like to suggest printing IBM logos (for keyboards or old computers), like you already did in one colour.

It would be nice to replace some old IBM logos with a modern one, printed with the letters in relief (or carved), in two colours if it's supported.


viewtopic.php?t=18905

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/ ... sp=sharing

------------------------
Will you make available the 3d model for the model f flippers? What file format are you using?


Another idea: printing key blockers for the model f (stem plus flat surface, level with the keyboard plane). This is useful since most users remap the model f at and xt, so removing the unused keycaps maybe nice and useful
Hi, these are good points. I have made some of the ibm logos before and sent to some people in FDM. Does anyone have the actual dimensions of the original oval? The ones I printed were too big and I don't have a model m to measure the oval size.

I will release the flipper file when It is complete and working. I am using fusion360 to make the items.

The blank model f barrel is an interesting idea! I may have to do that yes.

As well to fully illustrate what I mean with that spine on the nexus slider. Ignore this is the wrong side of the stem and visualize the otherside. You can see how the bottom of the keycap overhangs the alps slider width. I think somehow that is pinching the clickleaf weirdly. You can see how the spine would somewhat prevent that by making the keycap flush with the slider.
keycap spine.JPG
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Re: Resin print keyboard parts factory

Posted: 15 Aug 2020, 00:43
by SneakyRobb
Hi,

So still on this nexus slider.

Here are some comparison measures I made
nexus slider 4.JPG
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nexus lel 3.JPG
nexus lel 3.JPG (38.71 KiB) Viewed 9506 times
So I tried to update both with the vertical height and the spine.
nexus redone 1.JPG
nexus redone 1.JPG (42.71 KiB) Viewed 9506 times
Looks pretty good lets compare
nexus compare 1.JPG
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nexus slider.JPG
nexus slider.JPG (71.98 KiB) Viewed 9506 times
I will try to print this tomorrow. One thing to note is that the nexus original designers seemed to have omitted the vertical part of the switch that goes past the alps "slits."

I am not sure why they did this. Maybe due to mold costs it was simpler. When the slider is fully up it would seem this would at least partly help the dust incursion into the switch. No matter. I have made models in both configuration.
no wiper control.JPG
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yes wiper control.JPG
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alps compare 3.JPG
alps compare 3.JPG (66.71 KiB) Viewed 9506 times

Re: Resin print keyboard parts factory

Posted: 15 Aug 2020, 07:02
by gianni
Talking about something not strictly related to your current problem, I'd like to say that stem tolerances are a strange beast, do you remember box switches? They where off by a smaller margin than what is (nowdays) considered an acceptable tolerance for 3d printers (0.1mm). Probably to play safe you should buy a cruciform to check the safety of each switch mount, to avoid breaking keycaps.

Did I miss something or you didn't actually measure the keycaps with a digital caliper? I would surely do it.

Re: Resin print keyboard parts factory

Posted: 15 Aug 2020, 16:59
by matt3o
SneakyRobb wrote:
12 Aug 2020, 02:46
matt3o wrote:
09 Aug 2020, 08:18
you really need to get better resin though :)
Aw. Any suggestions!? This one worked pretty well.

you may try with ABS-like resins or technical resins usually called "engineering" or "tough". I used FunToDo Industrial blend with some degree of success. Harzab Model is also decent. Let me know if you need more specifics.

Re: Resin print keyboard parts factory

Posted: 25 Aug 2020, 12:50
by gianni
If you need a model for the key blocker, probably you can use this stl file as a base to work on (well obviously in your version the top will be square not rounded).

https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:1849140
IBM_Model_M_Typewriter_Keycaps_for_German_edition.zip
(422.69 KiB) Downloaded 152 times
$$Clipboard01.jpg
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Re: Resin print keyboard parts factory

Posted: 26 Aug 2020, 04:50
by anthonymak
any update on the electric paint?

Re: Resin print keyboard parts factory

Posted: 26 Aug 2020, 07:47
by gianni
https://www.blackmagic3d.com/Conductive-p/grphn-pla.htm

Conductive filament will surely have a longer life than paint.

There are also conductive resins that can be used for sla printing

https://www.3dresyns.com/pages/conducti ... lectronics

Re: Resin print keyboard parts factory

Posted: 27 Aug 2020, 22:37
by SneakyRobb
Hi,

Yes the electric paint seems to work. I am trying to finalize the flipper model though as my previous ones do not click/flip. Can't say for sure if the paint will work while on the clicking flipper inside the assembled keyboard module.

Here is the current untested version
flipper newer.zip
(17.75 KiB) Downloaded 133 times
Took a while to get the bottom and the spring retainer better. Will print hopefully Saturday and get actual clicks. The bottom is much more like the original now.

Conductive filament will last longer and I have been using it to make beamspring capacitive elements. For the beamspring though the capacitive element doesn't really do anything. It gets yanked up and down sometimes. It's kind of captive.The FDM printer doesn't have the best tolerances but it doesn't matter as long as the bottom is flat.

This is a major problem for the model f flipper though as the flipper unlike the beamspring is a working component. It pivots and rubs. The FDM with it's often very scratchy sides makes for a hard time printing accurate things. This is doubly bad for the flipper which is a small flat element. Very difficult to make the fine detail working edges of the model f flipper with a 0.2mm nozzle shooting the stuff.

Regardless it is a good idea.

This is why the paint is currently more attractive.

Old
flipper old.JPG
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New
flipper newer.zip
(17.75 KiB) Downloaded 133 times

Re: Resin print keyboard parts factory

Posted: 27 Aug 2020, 22:39
by SneakyRobb
gianni wrote:
25 Aug 2020, 12:50
If you need a model for the key blocker, probably you can use this stl file as a base to work on (well obviously in your version the top will be square not rounded).

https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:1849140
IBM_Model_M_Typewriter_Keycaps_for_German_edition.zip

$$Clipboard01.jpg
Hi,

This is a good idea I might take it!. I will probably saw some xt barrels in half to get interior measurements later. I do find the blank pad idea attractive. I think it will also keep the original tension/pressure of the model f sandwhich nicely preserved.

Re: Resin print keyboard parts factory

Posted: 27 Aug 2020, 22:53
by gianni
Sorry, I got lost in your words and I didn't understand why conductive filament doesn't work in the model f flipper. You won't use it because it is worse (for the details), than the standard filament?

Re: Resin print keyboard parts factory

Posted: 27 Aug 2020, 22:56
by gianni
Furthermore there is an old post that shows two different kind of flippers. Maybe the squared one isn't from IBM and was used for repairs?!?

viewtopic.php?t=9715

If your flipper doesn't click, maybe change the angle of the spring? This surely modifies the buckling in a substantial manner.

Re: Resin print keyboard parts factory

Posted: 27 Aug 2020, 23:42
by SneakyRobb
gianni wrote:
27 Aug 2020, 22:53
Sorry, I got lost in your words and I didn't understand why conductive filament doesn't work in the model f flipper. You won't use it because it is worse (for the details), than the standard filament?
Hi, conductive filament will work electrically. It just is hard to make a working flipper out of because the flipper needs to be smooth. FDM doesn't produce the smoothest finish. The model F flipper is a much more functional item vs the beamspring capacitive element. The little ears on it rotate and rub everywhere.

The model F is a huge improvement over the beamspring and one part that gets a lot of function is the flipper. So it is not that easy to make a basic flipper copy. It has tolerances and a function that need to be replicated closely.
gianni wrote:
27 Aug 2020, 22:56
Furthermore there is an old post that shows two different kind of flippers. Maybe the squared one isn't from IBM and was used for repairs?!?

viewtopic.php?t=9715

If your flipper doesn't click, maybe change the angle of the spring? This surely modifies the buckling in a substantial manner.
I have been trying to fix
flipper with spring.JPG
flipper with spring.JPG (37.38 KiB) Viewed 8958 times

I am not sure about why IBM had different flippers. I do know that they basically work interchangeably.

I have been changing the bottom of the flipper. Heavily targeting this point.
PIVOOOT.jpg
PIVOOOT.jpg (75.72 KiB) Viewed 8958 times
That is the key working part of the flipper so hopefully that can work soon.

Ill add the current nexus slider files here as well I suppose.




nexus sliders.zip
(205.09 KiB) Downloaded 108 times

Re: Resin print keyboard parts factory

Posted: 28 Aug 2020, 00:45
by gianni
Personally I'd make the area circled in red taller and longer. Then you can probably cut it away bit by bit until it works, using an exacto knife and sandpaper.

In simple words, the points in red and the center of the spring must not be aligned. The red points must be a little bit on the left with respect to the center of the spring, but not too much or the buckling will be too difficult. Looking at the photos it seems that the distance between the center of the springs and the pivot point (circled in red), is smaller in your print when compared to the original)

Considering that the spring applies a force of 60 grams and that deformation can play a role, in a second moment, you can make the two bridges thicker.

Re: Resin print keyboard parts factory

Posted: 28 Aug 2020, 04:43
by gianni
I couldn't figure it out in my phone, but it seems that ellipse flippers have less detail/ resolution than yours, and that the red parts are quite smoothed out. Sincerely that makes sense, and with a simpler model you could make a flipper whose base is made of two different surfaces, with a small intermediate offset/ step between them. Instead you and ibm added a lot of complications that aren't really necessary.

Re: Resin print keyboard parts factory

Posted: 29 Aug 2020, 01:17
by SneakyRobb
gianni wrote:
28 Aug 2020, 04:43
I couldn't figure it out in my phone, but it seems that ellipse flippers have less detail/ resolution than yours, and that the red parts are quite smoothed out. Sincerely that makes sense, and with a simpler model you could make a flipper whose base is made of two different surfaces, with a small intermediate offset/ step between them. Instead you and ibm added a lot of complications that aren't really necessary.

Hi, your points we well met and correct!

I have made a mathematical 3d model of the flipper. It is not a production sort of model. The model I made has harsh sharp edges that would be bad for an actual mold that is machined out of metal. If we were to use the model to make molds those harsh edges would have to be smoothed yes.

So yes, the ellipse and OG flippers would be smoothed and optimized for injection molding! I will test that specific model though and post the results though about that red area height.

Re: Resin print keyboard parts factory

Posted: 29 Aug 2020, 12:17
by gianni
$$hammer.jpg
$$hammer.jpg (24.87 KiB) Viewed 8780 times
Right now I don't have a flipper at hand, anyway in my opinion the only facts that count in this preliminary phase are:

- the distance between the center of rotation identified by the yellow arrow and the center of the spring

- the angle between the axis of the spring "at rest" and the green plane

- when the red plane is in contact with the traces of the pcb, verify if the yellow point is still on the pcb (verify if this happens also with an original flipper).

If these measures respect the original flipper, in my opinion it should work like the original one.

If I had to take these measures, I would literally tape the flipper on the photocopier's glass and then scan it. Taking a picture results in many more errors. I've seen that you have alredy broken a flipper in half, so you can scan it in the center plane and in the side plane :-)

Later I'll go look if I have some spare flippers and barrels and try to take some measures.

Re: Resin print keyboard parts factory

Posted: 30 Aug 2020, 23:17
by SneakyRobb
gianni wrote:
29 Aug 2020, 12:17
$$hammer.jpg

Right now I don't have a flipper at hand, anyway in my opinion the only facts that count in this preliminary phase are:

- the distance between the center of rotation identified by the yellow arrow and the center of the spring

- the angle between the axis of the spring "at rest" and the green plane

- when the red plane is in contact with the traces of the pcb, verify if the yellow point is still on the pcb (verify if this happens also with an original flipper).

If these measures respect the original flipper, in my opinion it should work like the original one.

If I had to take these measures, I would literally tape the flipper on the photocopier's glass and then scan it. Taking a picture results in many more errors. I've seen that you have alredy broken a flipper in half, so you can scan it in the center plane and in the side plane :-)

Later I'll go look if I have some spare flippers and barrels and try to take some measures.
When I lay it flat It feels like there is resistance between a sheet of paper when trying to slide it in. I tried using a glass plate and some feeler gauges and there doesn't seem to be a thinness where there is zero resistance. I think the yellow point is always in contact. Which would make senses as a pivot point.

I have modified my flipper model to have the point and the flat part inline.
flipper inline.JPG
flipper inline.JPG (28.75 KiB) Viewed 8706 times
The previous flipper I printed does click but the spring doesn't stay on well. I am very surprised at the very specific dimensions of the model f flipper.

Re: Resin print keyboard parts factory

Posted: 01 Sep 2020, 18:31
by SneakyRobb
gianni wrote:
25 Aug 2020, 12:50
If you need a model for the key blocker, probably you can use this stl file as a base to work on (well obviously in your version the top will be square not rounded).

https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:1849140
IBM_Model_M_Typewriter_Keycaps_for_German_edition.zip

$$Clipboard01.jpg
Hi,

Slightly different and I haven't printed it yet but I made these 2 files that hopefully will fit in order to make blank barrels.

Robb

Re: Resin print keyboard parts factory

Posted: 02 Sep 2020, 06:35
by gianni
SneakyRobb wrote:
01 Sep 2020, 18:31
gianni wrote:
25 Aug 2020, 12:50
If you need a model for the key blocker, probably you can use this stl file as a base to work on (well obviously in your version the top will be square not rounded).

https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:1849140
IBM_Model_M_Typewriter_Keycaps_for_German_edition.zip

$$Clipboard01.jpg
Hi,

Slightly different and I haven't printed it yet but I made these 2 files that hopefully will fit in order to make blank barrels.

Robb
That's very useful and nice but it has a different function. Your project requires to remove the barrel, while (I think), most people could be interested in something that replaces the keycap when trying new layouts with the model f at / xt. Obviously when the layout is tested many people will use your keyblocker.

Re: Resin print keyboard parts factory

Posted: 02 Sep 2020, 18:02
by SneakyRobb
gianni wrote:
02 Sep 2020, 06:35
SneakyRobb wrote:
01 Sep 2020, 18:31
gianni wrote:
25 Aug 2020, 12:50
If you need a model for the key blocker, probably you can use this stl file as a base to work on (well obviously in your version the top will be square not rounded).

https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:1849140
IBM_Model_M_Typewriter_Keycaps_for_German_edition.zip

$$Clipboard01.jpg
Hi,

Slightly different and I haven't printed it yet but I made these 2 files that hopefully will fit in order to make blank barrels.

Robb
That's very useful and nice but it has a different function. Your project requires to remove the barrel, while (I think), most people could be interested in something that replaces the keycap when trying new layouts with the model f at / xt. Obviously when the layout is tested many people will use your keyblocker.
Hi, I think I get you. I suppose such an insert could be made. It would still stick up a bit as it would both need to tense the spring to raise the capacitive flipper but also not be able to press it down. Although maybe the tensed spring sits below the barrel anyway so it could be flush... I will investigate this.

Re: Resin print keyboard parts factory

Posted: 02 Sep 2020, 19:39
by gianni
Hello, thanks for the follow up and for your patience. I would proceed this way. Convert the STL that I posted to DWG (probably you can do it with the freeware blender).
Then with your fusion software move the top of the key towards the bottom. Proceed with the lowering until the top of the key (the flat part), rests on the top of the barrell. At this point you have the exact measure that prevents the key from actuating and from moving.

The stem of the new key must have the same length of the inside of the barrel, plus about 1mm or a little more to allow the little nibs of the stem to effectively "clip" the inside of the barrel.

Re: Resin print keyboard parts factory

Posted: 03 Sep 2020, 09:59
by gianni
About the flipper, could it be that it doesn't work perfectly because the spring is not seated correctly on the little stem? When the spring buckles, it applies a "moment" (not sure if the translation is correct), and if it is not seated firmly, the buckling doesn't translate in a "moment" acting on the flipper.