[IC] IBM M2F Conversion Kit

fricked

21 Sep 2020, 04:27

This is an interest check for an IBM Model M to F conversion kit.

The purpose of this mod: to replicate the superior Model F internals in the superior layout and availability of the Model M.

The kit would include:
- (110x) Model F flipper (reproduction; not an original IBM part)
- (110x) Model F spring (reproduction; not an original IBM part)
- (1x) M2F PCB
- (1x) QMK xwhatsit Controller

The process would be fairly straight-forward, though bolt/screw mod experience would be a plus:
1: acquire an IBM Enhanced Keyboard (Model M with the standard 101-105 key layout)
2: disassemble the keyboard including the inner assembly (chopping off remaining rivets)
3: cut away a couple nubs on the underside of the M barrel plate to make room for some of the flippers (no big deal, it will still look and function the same and can always be reverted to an M)
4: put the new springs on the new flippers, put these in the barrel plate, and replace the membrane with the new PCB
5: reassemble the keyboard assembly; bolt/screw mod is necessary, I recommend bolt mod
6: attach the controller to the PCB (will probably need some basic soldering) and screw it into the back plate

Where I’m at right now:
The flipper: I made a precise 3D model of the flipper and fellow DT user SneakyRobb has been kind enough to print it with his resin printer; physically it seems to be working very well! It feels the same as an original IBM flipper. He doesn’t have conductive resin though, so it doesn’t work as an actual switch. Obviously, I will be using a different plastic for mass production; I have already decided on an excellent candidate but if you have any useful information feel free to let me know.
Here is a sound comparison between a flipper printed from my 3D model, and 2 original IBM flippers. Keep in mind this is not the material I will be using for the end product, and the flipper experienced some warping; SneakyRobb printed 2 of them and this is the less warped of the two (warping will not be a problem in mass production):
Spoiler:
I have posted a comparison including SneakyRobb’s flipper in his resin printing thread.

And a picture beside an IBM flipper (mine is the clear one):
Spoiler:
Image
The PCB: It will be using xwhatsit’s cap-sense controller, likely with pandrew’s port to QMK (still in testing but it should be fully released soon). Here is his compact beamspring controller using it: viewtopic.php?f=50&t=24512. I have taken all the necessary measurements of the M and F layouts and assemblies, mapped the matrix, etc. Not much to go before I can get prototypes made.

The spring: I ordered a precise scale that should arrive soon; with the weight and physical measurements I should be able to find a spring steel alloy that will work.


The kit would be for the standard layout Model M (101-105 key) only; I will be happy to do a 122-key and SSK version if this project is a success.

Price would be $80 USD + plus shipping & applicable taxes/duties.


Extra comments:
On the sound and feel of an M converted to an F: Those that have done a mod like this report same/very similar feel to a Model F with a sound that is closer to an F than an M. A different sound is expected because the sound is greatly influenced by the case (the construction of the Model M assembly is also a bit different, ex. no metal top plate). For example, an F XT sounds significantly different than an F122. Chyrosran's video on Model Fs is pretty informative:
Spoiler:
You may not know me as I’m not very active on the forums, but I’m a regular on the Deskthority Discord server (https://discord.gg/Sd84V8).


Discord server: will make one if there is interest

If you are potentially interested in buying a kit, please fill out this quick survey: https://forms.gle/oz6EXbdKAtyEKZAu7
This is important; I need to know there is enough interest before this project can become a reality.
Last edited by fricked on 21 Sep 2020, 17:06, edited 1 time in total.

Shihatsu

21 Sep 2020, 12:40

Participated in the IC form. I don't even got an Donor Board, but hell yeah this would be some kind of super Board to have.

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dcopellino

21 Sep 2020, 14:26

If you are potentially interested in buying a kit, please fill out this quick survey: https://www.surveylegend.com/s/2lnv
Very interesting initiative that seems paving the way to a new m/f hybrid project now that hybrid is so fashionable.
I'am in if only the survey worked. Please, fix the broken link.

fricked

21 Sep 2020, 17:07

dcopellino wrote:
21 Sep 2020, 14:26
Very interesting initiative that seems paving the way to a new m/f hybrid project now that hybrid is so fashionable.
I'am in if only the survey worked. Please, fix the broken link.
Changed it to a google form, here's the new link: https://forms.gle/oz6EXbdKAtyEKZAu7

zzxx53

21 Sep 2020, 17:31

Finally someone's working on reviving the Model MF project!
Just making sure, there's no plan to also print the barrel plate, right?

fricked

21 Sep 2020, 17:39

zzxx53 wrote:
21 Sep 2020, 17:31
Finally someone's working on reviving the Model MF project!
Just making sure, there's no plan to also print the barrel plate, right?
No such plans at the moment, the M barrel plate is compatible with very little modification

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depletedvespene

22 Sep 2020, 03:35

Fnhanced kfyboard? I'm in!

I bet terminal Model M keyboards will be ideal "donor" boards, so that begs the issue of ensuring the necessary recabling and whatnot is considered as an integral (or at least, a close-to-core option) part of the project.

gianni

22 Sep 2020, 09:13

Considering that engineering the flippers took ellipse a long time, why don't you just run a GB for PCB and the controller, without flippers? This way people could use their own model f flippers, if they're compatible with the model m plate and barrels, and meanwhile you could further test your flipper and the plastic composition.

This was some years ago, but I read that Cindy and the guy that ran the other GB had amassed a conspicuous number of model f flippers. Maybe we can ask them while you perfect the perfect flipper?

Probably some of us are interested in making it quieter. Ellipse found that the spring affects the sound, so maybe in the further iterations of this GB you could try different, quieter and lighter springs? The flipper too can be modified and be made quieter.

kmnov2017

22 Sep 2020, 13:20

gianni wrote:
22 Sep 2020, 09:13
Considering that engineering the flippers took ellipse a long time, why don't you just run a GB for PCB and the controller, without flippers? This way people could use their own model f flippers, if they're compatible with the model m plate and barrels, and meanwhile you could further test your flipper and the plastic composition.

This was some years ago, but I read that Cindy and the guy that ran the other GB had amassed a conspicuous number of model f flippers. Maybe we can ask them while you perfect the perfect flipper?

Probably some of us are interested in making it quieter. Ellipse found that the spring affects the sound, so maybe in the further iterations of this GB you could try different, quieter and lighter springs? The flipper too can be modified and be made quieter.
The PCB files have already been public since 5 years for both the SSK and Model Ms. They cost around 6 euros a piece (MOQ is 5)
They can be found here - > viewtopic.php?f=7&t=13551
They have not been tested for compatibility on Unicomp made model M or their upcoming SSKs

For the controller, use the through hole version for now, I will update it with an SMD version soon
viewtopic.php?t=23406

fricked

22 Sep 2020, 16:43

depletedvespene wrote:
22 Sep 2020, 03:35
Fnhanced kfyboard? I'm in!

I bet terminal Model M keyboards will be ideal "donor" boards, so that begs the issue of ensuring the necessary recabling and whatnot is considered as an integral (or at least, a close-to-core option) part of the project.
A cable will most likely be included, I haven't yet decided if it will be a common connector like usb-c or a header (the controller is inside the keyboard anyway so a header would make more sense)

fricked

22 Sep 2020, 16:49

gianni wrote:
22 Sep 2020, 09:13
Considering that engineering the flippers took ellipse a long time, why don't you just run a GB for PCB and the controller, without flippers? This way people could use their own model f flippers, if they're compatible with the model m plate and barrels, and meanwhile you could further test your flipper and the plastic composition.

This was some years ago, but I read that Cindy and the guy that ran the other GB had amassed a conspicuous number of model f flippers. Maybe we can ask them while you perfect the perfect flipper?

Probably some of us are interested in making it quieter. Ellipse found that the spring affects the sound, so maybe in the further iterations of this GB you could try different, quieter and lighter springs? The flipper too can be modified and be made quieter.
From what I remember that supply has dried up. Regardless, the main goal here is to produce the flippers so we don't have to rely on limited supply IBM parts. As kmnov said a working PCB and controller are already available with a pretty low MOQ; I'm designing my own versions so they work well together but this isn't crucial for the project.

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zrrion

22 Sep 2020, 17:03

Yeah, an F without the need to harvest would be excellent, and any source of new flippers is welcome in my book.

gianni

23 Sep 2020, 01:49

fricked wrote:
22 Sep 2020, 16:49
gianni wrote:
22 Sep 2020, 09:13
Considering that engineering the flippers took ellipse a long time, why don't you just run a GB for PCB and the controller, without flippers? This way people could use their own model f flippers, if they're compatible with the model m plate and barrels, and meanwhile you could further test your flipper and the plastic composition.

This was some years ago, but I read that Cindy and the guy that ran the other GB had amassed a conspicuous number of model f flippers. Maybe we can ask them while you perfect the perfect flipper?

Probably some of us are interested in making it quieter. Ellipse found that the spring affects the sound, so maybe in the further iterations of this GB you could try different, quieter and lighter springs? The flipper too can be modified and be made quieter.
From what I remember that supply has dried up. Regardless, the main goal here is to produce the flippers so we don't have to rely on limited supply IBM parts. As kmnov said a working PCB and controller are already available with a pretty low MOQ; I'm designing my own versions so they work well together but this isn't crucial for the project.
You just can't compare a group buy with sourcing independently the stuff from different vendors. Having the PCB and the controller delivered probably cost as much as a GB spot :-) that's why a smaller group buy could have been interesting while you source the flippers. Anyway, if you're so sure about delivering the flippers and the springs in a medium/ short time, with an high quality, this means that you're way better than ellipse, or simply that you didn't have your money stolen as it has happened to him :-)

gianni

23 Sep 2020, 07:27

About ellipse, dealing with suppliers, and the real difficulty of making flippers rated for 100 millions actuations without flipping.
My understanding and impression of the whole thing is that he got scammed out of some money for the project (he wrote a blog post about it) because someone impersonated him to the factory or something, but he waited several months - until he got that resolved - to tell anyone, probably because everyone would have flipped **** and demanded refunds which he wouldn't have been able to provide
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=80556.150

fricked

23 Sep 2020, 18:00

gianni wrote:
23 Sep 2020, 01:49
You just can't compare a group buy with sourcing independently the stuff from different vendors. Having the PCB and the controller delivered probably cost as much as a GB spot :-) that's why a smaller group buy could have been interesting while you source the flippers. Anyway, if you're so sure about delivering the flippers and the springs in a medium/ short time, with an high quality, this means that you're way better than ellipse, or simply that you didn't have your money stolen as it has happened to him :-)
To be fair, ellipse's project was not only to produce pcbs and flippers but also to produce barrels, front and back steel plates, cut foam, cast zinc cases (which he seemingly redesigned midway through the project), screws etc. and keycaps, not to mention the plates and cases needed to be plated, painted etc. in a way indistinguishable from the originals, keycaps dye sublimated, and then everything needed to be assembled.. Even still (and I hope I'm not jinxing my project saying this :lol: ), 4 years seems like an extremely long timeline, especially given the GB format

kelvinhall05

23 Sep 2020, 18:59

Very cool. 10/10 would buy.

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DMA

24 Sep 2020, 04:35

Re: conductivity - get a 8B pencil (or pure graphite if you have access) and draw a solid plane of graphite on the bottom of the flipper.

It would flake off after couple thousand keypresses - but for a quick check it should do.

Note: NOT charcoal. Charcoal doesn't work for this particular case. Don't know why.

fricked

24 Sep 2020, 20:02

DMA wrote:
24 Sep 2020, 04:35
Re: conductivity - get a 8B pencil (or pure graphite if you have access) and draw a solid plane of graphite on the bottom of the flipper.

It would flake off after couple thousand keypresses - but for a quick check it should do.

Note: NOT charcoal. Charcoal doesn't work for this particular case. Don't know why.
Left: generous scribble with 8b pencil
Right: copper tape
Spoiler:
Image
Both work! You can even use your finger directly on the PCB

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DMA

24 Sep 2020, 20:41

fricked wrote:
24 Sep 2020, 20:02
copper tape
Copper tape is heavy and changes flipper geometry. Good to know graphite works for your setup too - independent verification is always nice.

DrYak

25 Sep 2020, 11:29

That would absolutely great if it come to fruition.

Bonus point if the conversion kit also happens to work on the bezel-less cousins of the model M, e.g: Unicomp's Ultra Classic keyboards. (But definitely not a blocker for me).

Fkazim

25 Sep 2020, 13:57

I have just done the survey I can't wait for these to be available :)

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sharktastica

25 Sep 2020, 16:18

Survey done - I am most definitely interested!

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Spaceman1200

27 Sep 2020, 14:16

Totally interested. form filled.

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drevyek

30 Sep 2020, 11:18

Wow! Really happy to see this project!

I still have a bag of flippers from a busted-up XT from back in the old project; it'd be good to have something to use them on.

Is the goal to support full-size only?

pcaro

30 Sep 2020, 12:39

Survey done. I wish a SSK so much...

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drevyek

30 Sep 2020, 20:01

Main trouble is the availability of cases. I (and many others) have done cut-down mods on full-sized Ms in the past, but they're messy and really hard to get right.

To avoid scope-creep, probably best to stick with the one SKU.

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daedalus
Buckler Of Springs

30 Sep 2020, 21:29

Would be cool to support lock lights, although each generation of Model M had a different interface between the lights and the controller - so maybe its not feasible

fricked

01 Oct 2020, 02:27

daedalus wrote:
30 Sep 2020, 21:29
Would be cool to support lock lights, although each generation of Model M had a different interface between the lights and the controller - so maybe its not feasible
I will include the lock lights "header" on the pcb but people will have to figure out the connection themselves given that they differ between models

fricked

01 Oct 2020, 02:36

Speaking of variations between models, I have observed in my own model Ms the following:
Spoiler:
Some bottom cases don't have these mounting tabs for the controller; instead, the controller screws onto the back plate:
Image

Sometimes the membrane is glued to the back plate:
Image

Variations between barrel plates (for example in this one the spacebar stabilizer guides are part of the barrel plate so they had to include holes to manufacture it):
Image
None of these pose significant problems, but of course I don't have every model M ever made, so if you know of any other variations in the construction do let me know! Unicomps/Lexmarks especially

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soomuchbanelings

01 Oct 2020, 06:27

i will patiently wait when there is one for the model m mini

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