MX Blacks...

[Go-Kart]

I recently picked up a nice little TKL I'd had my eye for a while. I bought it new for less than half price in the colour and form factor that I wanted so I didn't care too much about which switches came in it and chose MX Blacks ....damn they're scratchy!

I've never used them before and do not like them. They're alright to type on but quite fatiguing while gaming. This board will likely be more of a portable jack-of-all-trades so I need to sort it out.

My initial thoughts were to desolder the Blacks and install a fresh set of Holy Pandas I have to hand. However, they're lubed and ready for another project so I'm leaning more towards maybe making these Blacks more tolerable. I have a load of 67 g springs spare so I was thinking, 205 g0, lighter springs, hoping that that may make the keyboard more amenable.

I don't have any experiences with Blacks or ANY linear switches for that matter. So, rather than me doing the all the work and still not liking the switches, I thought it'd be worth asking if the learned folk of DT had a better idea; or could at least lend weight to mine.

[Bjerrk]

My experience with "new" Cherry MX Blacks has been pretty abysmal as well. I say "new" because I have tried Cherry MX Blacks from recent years, but not any of the "retooled" hyperglide switches.

Honestly, somehow, lubing them didn't help tremendously in terms of scratchiness. They still came nowhere close to vintage blacks.

But perhaps if I had the persistence to keep using them, they might have gotten better.

[kbdfr]

[…] MX Blacks […] They're alright to type on but quite fatiguing while gaming. […]

Same with bicycles. They’re alright to ride on but quite fatiguing while descending stairs
Or in other words: blame that silly gaming, not the MX blacks.
Keyboards are not gaming devices, they are used for gaming just because computers have them.

[Go-Kart]

My experience with "new" Cherry MX Blacks has been pretty abysmal as well. I say "new" because I have tried Cherry MX Blacks from recent years, but not any of the "retooled" hyperglide switches.

Honestly, somehow, lubing them didn't help tremendously in terms of scratchiness. They still came nowhere close to vintage blacks.

But perhaps if I had the persistence to keep using them, they might have gotten better.

Oh...

Keyboards are not gaming devices, they are used for gaming just because computers have them.

Surely gaming on a keyboard and mouse is one of the best aspects of being part of the PCMR!?

[Bjerrk]

Surely gaming on a keyboard and mouse is one of the best aspects of being part of the PCMR!?

What has the Personal Cult of Mr. Rogers got to do with anything?

[Go-Kart]

Surely gaming on a keyboard and mouse is one of the best aspects of being part of the PCMR!?

What has the Personal Cult of Mr. Rogers got to do with anything?

I administer the Personal Cult of Mr. Rogers forum ...with a keyboard

[Muirium]

Here's a shaky handheld cam video review of mine, comparing MX silent reds with my Realforce and NovaTouch (a short-lived Coolermaster+Topre partnership MX compatible low end Topre keyboard) and inevitably the HHKB, too. I gave those linear MX switches a good poke. You can hear the springs! Ach.

Silent reds should at least be the modern Cherry tooling, but they're still pretty lousy. Vintage blacks are a lot better. And the single Nixie switch I have is positively enchanted.

[Go-Kart]

Here's a shaky handheld cam video review of mine [...]

Nooo, I can't bear it! The scratchiness! I've actually already seen this video. That Ivory RF with the red caps is so pretty.

I've seen one or two NovaTouch boards for sale recently. It do like the fact that they are MX mount as I have aspirations of one day outfitting a keyboard with a real good looking set of SAs. It's finding a keyboard that deserves such treatment first!

As for these Cherrys, I really don't mind putting in the work with my soldering iron, I just wish I knew whether it's gonna be worth it or not. At least I know it won't exacerbate the issue.

[Muirium]

The scratchiness is worse than the shakiness? Oh no!!

These days, there's more competition in the MX compatible switch space. Time was the clones were all crap and just a cheaper alternative to legit MX, but that all turned around a few years back. Gaterons got good, Zealios became their favoured variant, and my own attention span was exceeded so you'll need other sources to tell you what's the current hotness! It's meant to be real smoooooth though. So maybe worth a thought.

Mind: do you actually like linear keyboards? That matters first!

[Go-Kart]

I feel I am abreast of current MX offerings. Though it all seems so similar to me. I started losing interest until I discovered, Chyros' channel and this place. There's so much more than MX! MX variants that I favour are stock Clears and lubed Razer Oranges ...I already feel judged Though I maintain a correctly lubed Orange feels much like a lighter Zealio.

I do not know if I like linear switches. I'm always willing to give anything a try! This MX Black board is just a distraction. I need a spare afternoon to linearise one of my Bigfoots.

[ddrfraser1]

Vintage MX blacks can be nice to type in if lubed, but even then there are many superior linears. New blacks are no good and need to be desoldered immediately

[Go-Kart]

New blacks are no good and need to be desoldered immediately

Sounds like I should figure which switches I should invest time in then!

[ddrfraser1]

Well there are so many boards that come with random switches I usually end up desolder if boards first thing anyway. Most cherry switches are sub par

[Rayndalf]

What I find funny about vintage vs different modern MX blacks is that Cherry makes so many of them that they must be redressing or replacing the tooling quite frequently. If they're even sort of competent then the tooling will be at it's "best" tolerances (not too tight or too loose) somewhere in the middle between redressings, so it's a bit of a crapshoot. As it is some linear MX suck, others are worse.

I tried a board with newer (2017?) MX browns vs a 2002 Kinesis vs a couple boards with 1996-1997 browns. I can't tell them apart in use, if anything the newest ones were the best, I'm about 90% sure vintage browns are a meme spread by people who like desoldering Compaq 11800s (similar to those muppets pining for West German blacks or whatever because they're too good for Wyse boards...).

The Marquardt linears in my mini ergo are pingy and scratchy, and non lubed white Alps are bind city. Linear space invaders are pretty disappointing if someone is expecting anything more than "full travel switch, less wobble than MX".

Anyone know what the deal is with Hirose Cherry oranges? The ones in my QX3 feel pretty bad.

JWK/ Durock linears are probably the best available right now. Any idea what the best lube for linears is right now?

[Go-Kart]

Any idea what the best lube for linears is right now?

From watching a lot of "high end" custom keyboard content on YouTube, Krytox 205 Grade 0 is still all the range with the cool kids.

[micmil]

"It's so scratchy!"

Then use it until it isn't. Physics wins again.

I tried a board with newer (2017?) MX browns vs a 2002 Kinesis vs a couple boards with 1996-1997 browns. I can't tell them apart in use, if anything the newest ones were the best, I'm about 90% sure vintage browns are a meme spread by people who like desoldering Compaq 11800s (similar to those muppets pining for West German blacks or whatever because they're too good for Wyse boards...).

It's like the pounders that swear up and down vintage guitars are better than anything made now, despite literally every single component being better produced in terms of material, workmanship, and accuracy. Nobody can accept the idea that the past was garbage and every single day we get further away from it, the better. Does this mean abandoning certain technologies is a good idea? No, it means abandon the methods of production and create something BETTER now that we can actually do so.

[ddrfraser1]

Nah. There is a difference. I hated MX blacks until I tried vintage blacks. They’re by no means amazing but like I said before, pleasant. Also, I’m pretty sure breaking in switches is a myth.

[Bjerrk]

Nah. There is a difference. I hated MX blacks until I tried vintage blacks. They’re by no means amazing but like I said before, pleasant. Also, I’m pretty sure breaking in switches is a myth.

May I ask why you're pretty sure of that? The physics of it makes perfect sense. Sincerely, a physicist.

[Muirium]

Not all plausible explanations are necessarily the truth. Put it to the test!

—A pedant

[Bjerrk]

Not all plausible explanations are necessarily the truth. Put it to the test!

—A pedant

Not so much pedantic as a bit misplaced. Many, many people have themselves experienced this "breaking in". That it is supported by a well-understood mechanism is certainly a bonus To doubt this is what requires special evidence, you could say.

[ddrfraser1]

I posed the question over on geekhack. Lots of interesting responses.

https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=111456.0

[micmil]

Yes, "breaking in" is real.

It's better described as "intentional premature wear" when it's applied to things like speakers, jeans, guitars (yes, this is real), baseball gloves, etc.

The comparison to breaking in an engine is pure idiocy and kind of indicative of why I don't bother with that place anymore. Comparing the needs of a machine that explodes while spinning around thousands of times per second to the needs of something that's pushed down a few millimeters once every few seconds with the force of a human finger. FFS... engine break-in is done to ensure that none of the hundreds of moving parts are out of tolerance...

Yeah, I gotta stop. When people that know nothing open their mouths I get a bit annoyed, especially when they do so regarding subjects I have some knowledge on.

[Bjerrk]

A little MX Black related "breaking in" anecdotal/observational evidence ( ):

I own three G80-1800s, all from the late 90s. They've all seen a good amount of use, but are fairly clean. They were originally used as point-of-sales keyboards in a pharmacy. They have one thing in common: The oft-used keys are very smooth. Nice to type on. The rarely-used keys (scroll lock, most of the F keys etc) are quite a bit scratchier.

[Muirium]

Cherry nerds one of those IKEA wear testing machines.

[Bjerrk]

Cherry nerds one of those IKEA wear testing machines.

I've seen people using a massage therapy gun on individual switches, and then there's a guy doing this:

So you're really just giving them ideas!

[Go-Kart]

Spoiler:

Cherry nerds one of those IKEA wear testing machines.

I've seen people using a massage therapy gun on individual switches, and then there's a guy doing this:

So you're really just giving them ideas!

I'm not sure that even that would save these Blacks!

[micmil]

Cherry nerds one of those IKEA wear testing machines.

I've seen people using a massage therapy gun on individual switches, and then there's a guy doing this:

So you're really just giving them ideas!

I'm thinking it would be faster to just pull the stems and polish them individually if you were that anal about switches... or just use a different switch... so I guess I've found my limit of stupid crap I'm willing to do for little to no actual gain.

*goes back to hacking up rubber domes to improve $20 keyboards with layouts he can't even use properly*