BrownFox step by step

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Muirium
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Unread post by Muirium » 23 Jul 2013, 18:37

ماء wrote:i want make split keyboard
but i'm confused how to connect 2 halves with wiring? any idea? :)
Read Suka's story and look at his pictures:

http://deskthority.net/workshop-f7/my-d ... hilit=suka

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matt3o
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Unread post by matt3o » 23 Jul 2013, 19:19

there must be a better way... NFC? bluetooth?

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ماء

Unread post by ماء » 23 Jul 2013, 20:10

@Murium
thanks murium
@matt3o
what NFC? i just found

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Jmneuv

Unread post by Jmneuv » 26 Jul 2013, 22:18

matt3o wrote:Can you find them in the M2.5 realm? Height 14-16mm
Found some that might be interesting (if it's still relevant):
http://www.ebay.de/itm/260565361445
http://www.ebay.de/itm/360585928541
http://www.ebay.de/itm/400479719519

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matt3o
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Unread post by matt3o » 27 Jul 2013, 00:39

Jmneuv wrote:
matt3o wrote:Can you find them in the M2.5 realm? Height 14-16mm
Found some that might be interesting (if it's still relevant):
http://www.ebay.de/itm/260565361445
http://www.ebay.de/itm/360585928541
http://www.ebay.de/itm/400479719519
great finding! I'll definitely going to grab some of them!

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Vierax

Unread post by Vierax » 27 Jul 2013, 02:25

ماء wrote:i want make split keyboard
but i'm confused how to connect 2 halves with wiring? any idea? :)
As Muirium said, you can use I2C and its arduino library.
If you're not skilled in programming, you can also use a big cable as EU SCART or HDMI and simply wire all rows and columns but it will be less flexible because of the diameter and it may be hard to make it removable (for transportation)

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ماء

Unread post by ماء » 27 Jul 2013, 11:31

Vierax wrote: If you're not skilled in programming, you can also use a big cable as EU SCART or HDMI and simply wire all rows and columns but it will be less flexible because of the diameter and it may be hard to make it removable (for transportation)
any picture for more details ;)

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Vierax

Unread post by Vierax » 27 Jul 2013, 18:43

An A-type HDMI cable has 19 wires + shield mass Image

so it allows you to have a splitted half with row+columns≤19 ( a maximum of 90 keys :shock: ) so maybe there is smaller cables witch could fit your matrix.

If you don't get it, I still can draw you a sketch but it could take some time.

(sorry Matteo for the off-topic)

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Muirium
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Unread post by Muirium » 28 Jul 2013, 00:23

No need to apologise for going off topic. Many of the best things start that way. Besides, Matt is as often OT as I am around here!

Speaking of which…

Is it a total non starter on this design to put multiple switches under the larger keys, such as the space bar?

I proxied a sweet little Access matrix keyboard for CeeSA and it has two MX blacks under its itty bitty Japanese style space bar. In a word: awesome! A linear I can love. You really have to whack this space bar to bottom out for a change and I really do like it. (The quad weight enter key, not so much, especially given its place.)

Some issues:

First the caps. Can they take a second switch, even just for weight? Cherry stabs come to mind. DSA caps have the mounts for those, right? The caps I'm using are from the DSA Dolch GB (fingers crossed) and my chosen space bar is the standard 6.25 units. Does it have a Cherry stab mounting point or two that I can use? Am I right in thinking Cherry stabs use fully compatible stems to the switches?

Second the plate. I'd ideally make this an optional move, so I can use either one switch under the space bar or two. Is there anything wrong with positioning two switch holes for this? Or even three if it's better to use wider spaced switches when going for two? Would they get in the way of the Costar stabs?

Third the case. I'm considering a thicker, stepped design so the Teensy doesn't have to mount right under the space bar. (My real motive is for possible later adaptation to Bluetooth.) Perhaps I could get away with a smaller space bar, too. Anyone got the details on where the Cherry stab points will be on the other sizes of caps?

I'm just thinking aloud here. Then typing those thoughts into a great little keyboard with a brilliant space bar! Getting ideas is only natural.

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ماء

Unread post by ماء » 28 Jul 2013, 07:47

Vierax wrote:An A-type HDMI cable has 19 wires + shield mass
Spoiler:
Image
so it allows you to have a splitted half with row+columns≤19 ( a maximum of 90 keys :shock: ) so maybe there is smaller cables witch could fit your matrix.

If you don't get it, I still can draw you a sketch but it could take some time.

(sorry Matteo for the off-topic)
Like Ergo Dox,but with 72 keys(I adding separate (T) arrow keys),
but HDMI quite much while Teensy has 24 holes for cabel i'm comfused in here :lol:

I found make ergo dox use HDMI cable
http://blog.fsck.com/


How if using this type of cable,seems more practical any picture again,I'd understand, if there is an pictures
Last edited by ماء on 28 Jul 2013, 11:43, edited 5 times in total.

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matt3o
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Unread post by matt3o » 28 Jul 2013, 09:30

Muirium wrote:No need to apologise for going off topic. Many of the best things start that way. Besides, Matt is as often OT as I am around here!
Ditto!
Muirium wrote:Is it a total non starter on this design to put multiple switches under the larger keys, such as the space bar?
2unit caps with 2 mount points (instead of 3) are quite common, but they rarely end up into GB. Except (of course) for DSA Retro and R4 (they both have 2u 2stems key).
Muirium wrote:First the caps. Can they take a second switch, even just for weight? Cherry stabs come to mind. DSA caps have the mounts for those, right? The caps I'm using are from the DSA Dolch GB (fingers crossed) and my chosen space bar is the standard 6.25 units. Does it have a Cherry stab mounting point or two that I can use? Am I right in thinking Cherry stabs use fully compatible stems to the switches?
DSA Dolch does not have 2u 2stems. It only includes standard 2u for cherry stabs. You can't use switches instead of stabs with a standard 2u and I don't think it is going to work for 2.25u either, but you can probably use them for anything bigger. Cherry stabs are just slim switches (very different from costar anyway!).

I wouldn't suggest to use MX Black anyway, the key would become unpressable :) Probably the best would be to use MX Red for stabs and whatever switch you like in the middle. I tried with 2 MX blues once and it's really uncomfortable.
Muirium wrote:Second the plate. I'd ideally make this an optional move, so I can use either one switch under the space bar or two. Is there anything wrong with positioning two switch holes for this? Or even three if it's better to use wider spaced switches when going for two? Would they get in the way of the Costar stabs?
I'm a bit confused here :) For a standard spacebar you use only 3 stems. The middle for the switch, the 2 side stems for stabilizers. You either use costar or cherry stabs. If you want to use switches as stabs you have to add 2 switch holes instead of the costar ones. You can't have both.

ANYWAY, I only did that for 2u key which is a pretty small key, I have no idea how it is going to work or feel on a spacebar. You have my Steely plate, maybe you can make a test.
Muirium wrote:Third the case. I'm considering a thicker, stepped design so the Teensy doesn't have to mount right under the space bar. (My real motive is for possible later adaptation to Bluetooth.) Perhaps I could get away with a smaller space bar, too. Anyone got the details on where the Cherry stab points will be on the other sizes of caps?
Which sizes? 2u is pretty easy to guess, 2.25u and 2.75u have the same mount points. Bigger sub 6.25 keys are quite uncommon.

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Muirium
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Unread post by Muirium » 28 Jul 2013, 14:27

Thanks Matt for getting straight to the confused parts of my idea! I was asking about too much at once. Let's think inside the box:

Image

Plan A: Heavy Space Bar on Current Layout

The main key I'd want to try extra weight on is the space bar. Frustratingly, I have no standard 6.25 unit space bar to measure Cherry stab positions. What I do have is a Wyse ASCII keyboard with a huge ~10 unit space bar with three Cherry mounts: the middle is for its single switch and the other two are for stabs and look identical to it. That's what gave me the idea.

Got the measurements for all three mounts on a 6.25 space bar? (Specifically the DSA Dolch I have on order?) Are they placed in the same "units" as always?

Thanks for pointing out the obvious: that if I use extra switches to fake myself some Cherry stabs, I don't need Costar stabs too! Perhaps I should redesign to use "Cherry stabs" on the space bar. (Or rather ask you to kindly place the switch holes for me!) I'm pretty sure I could handle a green with two reds of extra weight on my space bar quite easily. Then experiment with one or two blacks! I know I can handle a double black weight because I've typed on it for a few days and really like it. Also: the space bar on my XT is extra heavy too. Buckling super springs. Fine by me!

One interesting idea is to try a Cherry stabbed space bar without the central switch, so one of the stabilising blacks is the real switch, without a central green or blue. Is that a recipe for wobbly disaster? Probably…

The good bit is you're not warning me against giving the Teensy nowhere to go. I'll take that as tacit support for my stepped case plan! This really opens things up.

Plan B: Heavy Space Bar and Heavy Return on Current Layout

The other stabilised keys on my current layout are few in number: just left shift and return. Shifts are best kept balanced so I won't touch that one, but a heavier return could be interesting too. The Access board has double weight backspace, which I do like as "punctuation" in typing. You really get to hit those mistakes! But its quad weight return is too much, and too far out anyway.

Return is the usual 2.25 units ANSI return on my layout. Where are the stabs for those? Any chance I can Chery stab it at all with these caps? Note: kit 1 which both you and I ordered has been merged into kit 5, so there could be some fresh choices.

Plan C: Heavy Space Bar on New Layout

This was the bit I should have separated last time out to make things clearer. The Access board has a space bar which is both heavy and really small. I like both characteristics! If I'm free now from the Teensy placement constraint, I can redesign my layout for a smaller space bar. 2 units is what I've tried and it's pretty good (I'd just want it centred under GH instead of where the Access has it over the left a bit). What I might try is three such keys down there in a row, so I can reprogram them as necessary for how my real use turns out, long term. You can never have too many mods!

I'll see what experiments I can do with the Steely's plate full of switches and the Wyse caps that I have. Believe it or not, I have more Alps and IBM caps at home to choose from than I have Cherry fit! You're likely quite right about not using two blues. I'm thinking of a completely linear space bar, or simply adding a linear switch's weight (or two) to a single tactile clicky switch's key. Any more than one tactile mechanism under a key really alters the bump, making it blurred as well as extra chunky. Tactility is best left alone I think. It's simple (linear) weight that I'm playing with.

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matt3o
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Unread post by matt3o » 28 Jul 2013, 15:41

Thinking of it, I don't think you can use 3 switches for the spacebar. There's a wire that connects the two side stabs so that when you press near the edge of the spacebar the force is distributed to the other stab as well. I don't know if this is going to work with just 3 switches (and no wire). That might work for small keys but not sure about 6/7u.

I guess your only option is to redesign the keyboard with 2u spacebars but you have to source them somewhere.

You should have all the stab size/measurements in the PDF I sent you. Let me know if can't get them from there.

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Muirium
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Unread post by Muirium » 28 Jul 2013, 15:57

PDF? (Goes to check email: nothing new.) You mean the one for the current Costar stabbed layout? The measurements I'm after are where are the Cherry stab "sockets" on the underside of stabilised caps. The present plate doesn't use them so they are not indicated.

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matt3o
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Unread post by matt3o » 28 Jul 2013, 16:16

the location of the cherry stab is the same as costar, just a bit bigger. I should have real specs somewhere... let me check

Edit: 14x6.6mm the position is the same as costar.

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Muirium
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Unread post by Muirium » 28 Jul 2013, 17:50

Right. Just got out my metal rule and confirmed that on the Wyse. But have you a table for their positions for commonly stabbed keys, rather than the stabiliser's own dimensions? I'm wanting to know the placement of the mounts in the underside of the caps. I have Costar placements (which are the same, hooray!) from your plate for some but not all sizes of stabilised key. A table would be good if it exists!

The weird old Wyse has minimal variation in stabilised keys. Besides the massive space bar, every other stabbed key is 2.0 units wide. The caps have three Cherry mounts underneath, one central and the others 12 mm on either side of it. It's a tight fit! They are closer to the outside edge of the cap.

In fact, in order for them to slide properly on a switch, the MX's body has to be oriented with the shallowest side (where the LED mount lives) facing that edge. So the left switch is rotated 90º clockwise, the middle one is probably too close to the others to be installed, and the right switch is 90º counter-clockwise. For larger sizes, like a normal space bar, all three switches could easily fit, but I wonder about the locations of the stabs.

As for the wires connecting authentic Cherry stabs: those are there for allowing the stabs to move a bit when putting on or taking off caps, I think. They don't add stability to the stab, so much as allow it to be left loose enough to accept a cap. Not a problem when using full switches instead.

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matt3o
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Unread post by matt3o » 28 Jul 2013, 18:13

2, 2.25, 2.75 have all the same stems position (11.95mm apart from center to center). 6.25 stabs are 49.875mm apart (again from center to center). What other sizes do you need?

When you press the spacebar near to the edge the wire transfers part of the force to the opposite stabilizer so that the key is pressed evenly. I don't know if this is going to work with just switches. I'd give it a try.

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Muirium
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Unread post by Muirium » 28 Jul 2013, 18:27

Ah, numbers! Thanks Matt.

6 and 7 unit space bars are also good to know, since I'm signed up for Domo's Kit 5 which includes them both.

pjmelon

Unread post by pjmelon » 28 Jul 2013, 18:54

Matt3o,
I am doing a build at the moment and am using your build as reference (thank you for posting these details).
I notice your hole size is 2.7 mm. What size bolts did you use (M 2.5?)

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matt3o
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Unread post by matt3o » 28 Jul 2013, 19:02

Muirium wrote:Ah, numbers! Thanks Matt.

6 and 7 unit space bars are also good to know, since I'm signed up for Domo's Kit 5 which includes them both.
no prob. I'll soon post all details. Your order is together with mine, right?
pjmelon wrote:Matt3o,
I am doing a build at the moment and am using your build as reference (thank you for posting these details).
I notice your hole size is 2.7 mm. What size bolts did you use (M 2.5?)
Yes, I use M2.5, you can probably reduce that 2.6mm if you want, not tried personally but it should fit.

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Muirium
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Unread post by Muirium » 28 Jul 2013, 19:07

matt3o wrote:
Muirium wrote:Ah, numbers! Thanks Matt.

6 and 7 unit space bars are also good to know, since I'm signed up for Domo's Kit 5 which includes them both.
no prob. I'll soon post all details. Your order is together with mine, right?
Yes, one regular DSA Dolch and one of Domo's Kit 5 (previously called DSA Dolch ISO addon pack). I saw you were in for both about a month ago and got you to add mine to your order. It's a good selection of caps to make layouts from. I shall experiment with Cherry stabbed options in my layout and report back.

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Muirium
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Unread post by Muirium » 28 Jul 2013, 21:04

Domo's kit 4 is calling me:
Kit4 - Tenkey Kit
Tenkey Kit - 26 keys total
- 15x 1u GE blanks
- 1x 1u GE blank deepdish
- 3x 2u GE blanks
- 5x 1u GX blanks
- 2x 2u GX blanks

$19.34
That's some 2u space bar options right there! It's layout scribbling time again.

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matt3o
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Unread post by matt3o » 28 Jul 2013, 23:54

they are 2u 3 mount points, though. You'd need 2u 2 mount points. Still in?

pjmelon

Unread post by pjmelon » 29 Jul 2013, 01:02

matt3o wrote:
pjmelon wrote:Matt3o,
I am doing a build at the moment and am using your build as reference (thank you for posting these details).
I notice your hole size is 2.7 mm. What size bolts did you use (M 2.5?)
Yes, I use M2.5, you can probably reduce that 2.6mm if you want, not tried personally but it should fit.
Thanks Matt, another silly question but which diodes did you use?

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Muirium
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Unread post by Muirium » 29 Jul 2013, 11:35

I believe the diodes everyone uses are the ubiquitous and perfectly cheap 1N4148. Manning a keyboard matrix is a pretty easy life for a diode! Once installed…
matt3o wrote:they are 2u 3 mount points, though. You'd need 2u 2 mount points. Still in?
Experimenting with cramming two switches under 2u 3 mount point caps, I find they're no good. Bugger! Even with the switches rotated, the cap doesn't get full travel. And worse yet there's just not enough space between these switches and the next key to safely get away with on the plate. Cramped cramped cramped.

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matt3o
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Unread post by matt3o » 29 Jul 2013, 11:52

Muirium wrote:I believe the diodes everyone uses are the ubiquitous and perfectly cheap 1N4148. Manning a keyboard matrix is a pretty easy life for a diode! Once installed…
Confirmed. Specifically I got these. Someone said that you could take the cheapest 1N4148 you can find. I stick with avg/priced ones.
Muirium wrote:
matt3o wrote:they are 2u 3 mount points, though. You'd need 2u 2 mount points. Still in?
Experimenting with cramming two switches under 2u 3 mount point caps, I find they're no good. Bugger! Even with the switches rotated, the cap doesn't get full travel. And worse yet there's just not enough space between these switches and the next key to safely get away with on the plate. Cramped cramped cramped.
Image

Image

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Muirium
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Unread post by Muirium » 29 Jul 2013, 12:03

Hmm. You know what comes next.
Image

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matt3o
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Unread post by matt3o » 29 Jul 2013, 12:13

don't let a little stem turn you down.

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ماء

Unread post by ماء » 12 Aug 2013, 16:23

Sorry if Bad :lol:
Spoiler:
Image
Keycap Kit:
31=1x1
1 =1X1.25
2 =1X1.50
1 =1X1.75

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ماء

Unread post by ماء » 27 Aug 2013, 12:23

New Symmetric
Image
how your opinion?

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