To Save a Kishsaver

[Muirium]

As everyone already knows, I have a Kishsaver that I'm currently working on, having installed Xwhatsit's Most Excellent Controller. It's working just the trick. But I have a couple of lingering problems with my hardware that I still need to clean up. Advice most welcome!

Problem #1: Broken Space Bar Stab

The Kishsaver uses pretty simple stabs: wire hooks on the caps and slides into fixed plastic clips on the surface of the barrel plate. There's actually enough clips on the plate for 5 stabs, only 3 of which are in use on my standard config-Kishsaver: BACKSPACE, right SHIFT, and of course the SPACE Bar. All 10 mounts are in fine shape except this one…

Space Bar Stab.JPG (609.64 KiB) Viewed 14968 times

That snapped right-side stab means my space bar is only stabilised on its right half. When you press the left, the off-axis forces are routed towards that opposite clip, which isn't there.

Any ideas how to give this guy a new top so it works again?

Problem #2: Dodgy Flipper

The S key doesn't work. I've explored the problem a few different ways including a good chopsticking (which fixed another key) and all that's left is taking the plates apart to have a proper look at that flipper. I suspect it's broken and I need to replace it.

I've never been inside the metal heart of a Model F before. Has anyone some tips on taking a Kishsaver apart? Here's the overview:

Overview.JPG (530.41 KiB) Viewed 14968 times

I've taken the caps off (including the space bar, which is much better behaved than on an XT) and I've had a very cautious fumble around to feel if there's any slack in the plates. Nothing obvious though. Guess it's time to address these fellows:

Bottom Clip.JPG (427.45 KiB) Viewed 14968 times

Top Clip.JPG (463.85 KiB) Viewed 14968 times

There are 7 clips (4 along the bottom edge and 3 along the top) and this one in the top right is different, as it's bent over.

Corner Clip.JPG (519.1 KiB) Viewed 14968 times

Corner Clip Elevation.JPG (395.03 KiB) Viewed 14968 times

I'm guessing I pull that clip up straight, like the others. Then what? I've read of clamps and other scaries! But not enough explicit detail to have confidence in what I'm doing here myself.

Then there's the pair of these:

Mystery Hole.JPG (595.32 KiB) Viewed 14968 times

Hmm… even the little blue label on the back of the plate makes me worry now. Halp!

[rindorbrot]

Corner Clip Elevation.JPG

I'm guessing I pull that clip up straight, like the others. Then what? I've read of clamps and other scaries! But not enough explicit detail to have confidence in what I'm doing here myself.

Yes, straighten it up.
Then you can slide the whole barrel plate assembly to the side and the board is opened

[Muirium]

Thanks for the nudge: it really was as simple as all that! And now that I'm inside, I can see the problem. Exactly as I thought: the flipper under S is missing a leg. I'll swap it for backslash for now, but could really use a fix or replacement.

[wheybags]

I hvae a buch of spare hammers from unicomp, iirc they're exactly the same in an f.
I could send you one if you'd like?

[Parak]

Capacitive buckling springs require the carbon infused flippies, which are different from the ones used in Ms. The only known source, unfortunately, is parts from other boards, whether through a board that is too far gone (yet to see one of those..) or one where there's a spare from ANSIfication, perhaps.

[Muirium]

Correct. Here's my broken Kishy flippy, beside one of my Model M spares:

IMG_2296.JPG (671.14 KiB) Viewed 14916 times

For now, I'm playing with a different layout on the Kishsaver instead; using a few of those otherwise hidden sense pads. Oh, and I installed the beeper which now chirps away thanks to Xwhatsit's "solenoid" support. Glad I've got a volume knob underneath!

Anyone with spare Model F flippers, you know who's interested. I'll just join the queue…

Oh and ANSI Return keys, Model M or F…

[photekq]

Will be checking this thread frequently. Very much looking forward to seeing the finished board, μ

[wheybags]

Capacitive buckling springs require the carbon infused flippies, which are different from the ones used in Ms. The only known source, unfortunately, is parts from other boards, whether through a board that is too far gone (yet to see one of those..) or one where there's a spare from ANSIfication, perhaps.

Oh shite :S

may be able to replair the one you have with some resin?

[Muirium]

Maybe. It'll be tricky though, as I don't have that missing fragment. Same deal as the space bar stab, in fact! Going to need some skills…

Meanwhile, I took out the dodgy flipper, did some rearranging, scrounged some caps from an ANSI Model M, and I have quite a nice layout now. Fully working so long as you don't hit space left of centre (which I don't typically anyway). Pics in a bit!

[Muirium]

Tada!

HappyHackingKishSaver.JPG (243.42 KiB) Viewed 14858 times

Meet the Happy Hacking Kishsaver. Symmetric, 60%, capacitative buckling spring. Now my favourite keyboard of all!

Besides for the half-stabilised space bar – which I'm still keen to fix – it's working just fantastic! Xwhatsit's controller is superb, and these additional Model M caps have opened up quite the layout. Here's what I'm up to:

HappyHackingKishSaver.png (341.68 KiB) Viewed 14858 times

I could use a layer lock for that integrated number pad mode.

The only thing between me and true HHKB mania is the right shift key. IBM split those 2.75 units the other way around instead. In fact, here are all the options:

Bare PCB.jpeg (202.5 KiB) Viewed 14858 times

I swapped around flip plates so I could split the backspace key and go HHKB style instead. Fortunately, the Kishsaver even has a passable 1.5u Delete cap (PD2).

Now that I've been inside both a Model M and a Model F, I've got to say the F is superior on every front. Bolt modding is a ton of work compared to sliding this little guy open and closed. Here was what awaited me inside after barely any effort at all:

Flip Plates Exposed.jpeg (399.14 KiB) Viewed 14858 times

It didn't take long to find the S key…

Dodgy Flipper.jpeg (381.58 KiB) Viewed 14858 times

Going HHKB style means I lose one key over all, and so every other flipper is in use and working fine. I'd still like a spare, of course, so fixing advice for my failed one is still welcome.

Man, I love this keyboard now! It's a little flyer. And at 3kg, you're not going to forget you have it on your lap.

[scottc]

Insanely jealous. I need one of these keyboards!

[Muirium]

Well, as Facetsesame reminded me, the finishing touch would be a German Mµ cap for Escape. So I'm on the hunt for one of those as well…

I've also got some really nice IBM labels that Wcass made up on silver and gold. Should I touch up the paint first, I wonder? How do you match beige on metal? Yes, the project's still got legs yet!

[JBert]

Interesting how the spacebar is a far easier design than on the XT. Here you can at least take it off without opening the whole thing.

[Muirium]

My guess is the XT space bar in its full 10 units glory (or thereabouts?) is just too damn long for its own good. Plus the extra weight IBM gave it. The Kishsaver's 7 unit space bar is much more Model M like.

In fact, the Model M caps I put on feel better stabilised (with their barrel inserts) than the Kishsaver's native wire stabilised keys. So I'll probably ANSI it up with a Model M right shift, once I can find another insert.

What are the rules for those inserts anyway? I've found two kinds: centred, and off-centre. Apparently the main 60% area needs centred ones. Are the off-centres for a numpad?

[Game Theory]

Capacitive buckling springs require the carbon infused flippies, which are different from the ones used in Ms. The only known source, unfortunately, is parts from other boards, whether through a board that is too far gone (yet to see one of those..) or one where there's a spare from ANSIfication, perhaps.

Would carbon tape on one of these flappers at shapeways work?
http://www.shapeways.com/designer/nfc1

[Muirium]

Looks good, at any rate!

[Game Theory]

If the carbon tape works I can get a bunch of these made just in case others have the problem (including me) and do not have replacements. Hopefully it can minimize shipping since I'm in the US for a first hop. Otherwise I maybe to grab a spare F XT keyboard to harvest from.

[Muirium]

Someone's going to have to test!

If fellow Europeans are interested in some of these – and it's known to work – I can proxy again. Or are these something we can make locally, too?

Of course, I'm just as interested in maybe making a replacement for this guy:

[rindorbrot]

I'd need one flippy plate and one barrel. At least

[Game Theory]

Ordered F XT for parts so everyone check what they need. Should be a week or so before it gets to my spot in the states from the west coast. I'll be very quick with the turnaround. I'll throw in free shipping too so your price will be zero except if customs fees are imposed on the parts by your country. Please ask for only what you need.

[Muirium]

Splendid! Thanks Game Theory. I need a flippy or two, naturally.

[rindorbrot]

That sounds awesome Game Theory! As said I'd need a flippy plate and a barrel. Maybe also a spring.
And if you have enough to spare, I'd like two of each.
Will the free shipping be also for Europe? If not I'd pay for it of course.

Edit:
Well, to be exact I'd need 3x spring+flippy plate to be able to populate all possible spots on the kish. And one barrel to replace the broken one mine has.

[Hypersphere]

Someone's going to have to test!

If fellow Europeans are interested in some of these – and it's known to work – I can proxy again. Or are these something we can make locally, too?

Of course, I'm just as interested in maybe making a replacement for this guy:

Take a look at this post on GH showing an AT spacebar mod. He used bits of scrap metal bent into shape to hold the stabilizer wire and used epoxy to cement the metal holders into place:
http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=48288.0

SpacebarMod.jpg (292.22 KiB) Viewed 14650 times

[Muirium]

Promising! Thanks for the find, RJ. That is a very similar setup to my Kishsaver's space bar.

[Game Theory]

Replacement board has shipped to me via economy so it will likely get here next week.

[Muirium]

You have our gratitude!

[Game Theory]

As of now I have many model F flippers from an XT. I had forgotten that XT barrels and stabs are different so I still need to source from an AT. I currently have an AT that I previous restored from that I may harvest from if I cannot find an AT shortly.

Sorry for the delay.

Left is XT and right is AT [Thanks to wcass for photo]

[Muirium]

Spares of either kind are always a good thing! I have an XT (my first IBM and a much loved board) and I don't even know which variant of barrel housing my Kishsaver uses (do they attach under the top plate?) but zero spares is not a comfortable place to be, so thanks indeed! I definitely have a use for some flippies, too.

[Hypersphere]

It appears that the difference between the XT and AT barrel is that the peg on the XT is at 6:00 o'clock, whereas the peg on the AT is at about 4:00 o'clock. Is this correct? Are the barrels otherwise interchangeable?

What about F-122 barrels? Are they the same as either XT or AT barrels, or are they distinct?

(I am getting close to tearing all of mine down, so I will have answers to my own questions in the not too distant future).

[quantalume]

F-122 is same as AT. If you only had one barrel to replace, it wouldn't be that hard to make a hole if you had the wrong type. Hmmm...who is going to be the first to make a universal 60% top plate that would take either?