Purchased a Realforce 87U. It's ok, but rather underwhelming

[Hypersphere]

Fortunately, Trev did try it and wrote up about his Matias here. Further Trev chronicles, where he fell in love with an HHKB, then finally went full circle, lie here.

He's a fussy bugger, in a good way. That's why I remembered. Go read!

Thanks, Mu, for the link to Trev's review of the Matias boards. The Laptop Pro is the BT wireless version for the Mac that uses the Matias Quiet Click switches. I would prefer a wired version with clicky ALPS switches, as found in the Mini Tactile Pro. Although I like the layout concept of these boards, they could benefit from serious attention to aesthetics and build quality. The aspect ratio is too squatty; it is almost exactly 2.00. This could be remedied by cutting off the top bezel. The contours are too rounded; the boards need to be more rectilinear. It would also be good to have options for two-tone keycaps. Overall, these boards looks like cheap imitations of Fisher Price toys. More's the pity, because I think they are starting to get there with the layout design.

[Muirium]

Yeah, Matias is pretty damn promising. They / he (Matias himself shows up around here once in a while) have just the right idea on several things. Bluetooth? Hell yes! Alps switches? We make our own! And yet their mistakes are pretty striking too. Matias has been making upgrade keyboards for the Mac for at least a decade, and the (frankly shite) design of Apple's previous generation of white and clear plastic keyboards still looms large across Matias' line. Even the Mac users among us (hi) don't want that look.

Matias has intriguing substance but scores a well earned meh on style. Try those switches!

wanna visit Florence? I'll have you try a realforce and some wonderful T-Bone steak

Quick, everyone, to Matteo's house! Keyboard party!

[Hypersphere]

wanna visit Florence? I'll have you try a realforce and some wonderful T-Bone steak

Sounds wonderful. I spent a memorable sabbatical in Padova some years ago. Unfortunately, my present budget is inadequate for travel, let alone steak. However, being able to try out a RF might end up saving me money (or costing more if I like it!).

Sometimes I wish I had never acquired my Model Ms, which might heighten my acceptance of other boards. However, even if I were to reject all the modern boards that I try, I have the satisfaction of already owning something I like.

[Hypersphere]

No keyboard is going to be perfect, but for me the RF is the best overall (by a long shot). It's certainly standing the test of time for real work. I smash on this thing all day long. I'm down to two keyboards: the RF and my Ergo-clears KBT Pure project. While the clears are actually quite good, they're still in a different league next to RF. The spacebar on RF is definitely a weakness for Topre, it's not of the same quality level as the rest of the keyboard due to noise and ABS vs PBT.
----
If a 60% model with the same qualities as the RF silent existed, I'd definitely try it.

Trev, What do you think of the Pure Pro? It is not yet widely available, but as I understand it, it is a 60% with dedicated arrow keys and an intuitive Fn layer, such as Fn+arrow for Home, End, PageUp, PageDn. I've heard that the build quality of this and the related Poker II are subpar, however. What about the Tek Beetle? It is 60% with dedicated arrow keys. People interested in 60% boards are saying to watch for the new Ducky Mini, due out in August or so, but I have not seen the specs on this one.

And what about the Leopold FC660C? Topre switches, 60%+ with dedicated arrow keys and insert, delete keys.

Is it possible to get a replacement space bar for the RF or to modify it in some way for weight and silencing?

Finally, is there anyplace other than EK for getting replacement keycap sets for the RF?

[Muirium]

The Ducky Mini is a Poker II with lasered ABS caps instead of PBT, and backlighting. Literally. Ducky commissioned Vortex to make it for them. Down to the font!

[Hypersphere]

Muirium: Thanks. I agree about the font. They should invest in a Helvetica license and/or legend consultant. At least Ducky will likely change the senseless slogan on the spacebar.

Still wondering about the Pure Pro and Tek Beetle. I already like the Beetle as it is, but I think Tek will be introducing new models based in part on feedback they have received. Despite problems with non-standard staggering and modifier keycap sizes, the Filco Minila has possibilities as well. I had dismissed the Minila at first, but on closer inspection, the logic of the layout became apparent. However, solving the layout problem of a 60% while trying to retain arrow keys may require something like the Matias Mini or Leopold FC660C / FC660M, which spill a few keys over the 60% barrier.

Although I like the form factor of a sub-TKL, as a practical matter I might need to stick with full size or TKL to get my work done.

[Muirium]

Well, RJ, if you'd like a dangerously elegant solution: there's always going custom.

http://deskthority.net/workshop-f7/brow ... t6050.html

I like the look of the Tek Beetle, or whatever they're calling at last, but I'd rather draw my own layout, choose my own switches down to the single key, Cherry or Matias, and not have to buy a default set of caps I'd pull straight off anyway. Matt's getting well practiced at making metal keyboards. And I'm joining in with him! I've a sweet set of caps ordered up on a group buy, and a full keyboard's worth of MX greens likewise. The Teensy microcontroller is already in my possession. Bought alongside another which now powers my Model F. The action's heating up here!

You want the minimum of bulky rims beyond your key layout's edge? You want those cursor keys tucked just where you want them? And with reprogramnable custom layers? You got a soldering iron? Come join the revolution. Matt's the man to ask.

[Hypersphere]

Mu, Thanks for the interesting suggestion. You are not the first to recommend either doing a custom order (e.g., the GH60) or building a keyboard myself. About a thousand years ago back in college I did build a stereo amplifier from a kit that involved a considerable amount of soldering. I might be able to pick up the skills again, but the problem is finding the time and a place to work. I have a well-equipped study, but I no longer have a workshop. Nevertheless, I find the idea of a DIY board intriguing, and it does makes sense. After all, every keyboard I look at is not quite right, and I have a good idea of what I want. How would I go about getting started with this, and about how much would it cost to build a 60% - 75% board?

[Hypersphere]

No keyboard is going to be perfect, but for me the RF is the best overall (by a long shot). ...

So, have you given up on the HHKB Pro 2? If so, why? Is it the layout? The need for a Fn layer? I have been seriously considering the HHKB Pro 2, but I cannot decide if the great form factor and Topre switches is worth the hassle of learning the layout and adapting to using a Fn layer for keys that I commonly use, such as the arrow keys. Thanks.

[matt3o]

How would I go about getting started with this, and about how much would it cost to build a 60% - 75% board?

Start here: http://deskthority.net/workshop-f7/buil ... t5761.html
Then here: http://deskthority.net/workshop-f7/brow ... t6050.html
Then ask for help on this very same forum.

Your very first experiment will be expensive (I guess around €200-220), I managed to reduce the costs quite a bit over time gaining experience (and having already purchased most of the components needed such as wires/headers/shrinking rubber/etc...). But there are ways to spare on custom keyboards, reusing other keyboard's case and switches for example.

[Muirium]

The cost gets better when you already have the caps you want (your Olivettis?) and when you're sharing metal and machining costs in a group buy, as we plan to do quite soon. Unlike off the shelf models, you don't have to pay for anything superfluous. And you can iterate in the future by replacing only the desired components. Namely the plate for layout tweaks or different switches.

If the Filco's comparative lightness is what's really at the root of your ho hum with it: an all metal compact keyboard can rival your Model M. In fact, by density, it can surely beat it. Density is the key, I think, to whether something feels high quality. See also metal and glass bodied computers, tablets and phones! They're light, but they're so thin they're actually quite dense. Build likewise!

[Hypersphere]

... Unlike off the shelf models, you don't have to pay for anything superfluous. And you can iterate in the future by replacing only the desired components. Namely the plate for layout tweaks or different switches. ...

Muirium (and Everyone):

Although I appreciate the advantages of a custom-built board, given my time constraints I think I would like to go with off-the-shelf models, at least for the relatively near term. I currently use a full-size IBM Model M, which continues to serve me well, but I have become intrigued with smaller boards. I started with a Filco MJ2 TKL Ninja with Cherry Blues, which I customized by installing the Classic Two-Tone Beige/White with Blue legends keycaps from Originative. Now I would like to try sub-TKL boards, including the 60% variety. While I think I would prefer dedicated arrow keys, I might be able to use them in the Fn layer if the Fn layout is highly intuitive and ergonomic (intelligent placement on the keyboard). Coming from the Model M, I like a board that has excellent build quality and tactile/auditory feedback. Because I might not have the same board on all three of my workstations, I would probably need to go with a conventional layout. Even so, I am willing to consider something like the HHKB Pro 2 if it turned out to be a winner in every other way.

With these considerations in mind, I am considering the following keyboards in the sub-TKL or 60% categories: Leopold FC660M, Leopold FC660C, Poker II, Pure Pro, and HHKB Pro 2. Which, if any, of these would you recommend (any why)? (Feel free to recommend others I have overlooked).

In the TKL category, I am considering the following: Filco MJ2 TKL Cherry Blue, Ducky Shine II TKL Cherry Brown, CM QuickFire Stealth Cherry Green, Realforce 87u, and IBM Model M Space Saving Keyboard (if I can find one in excellent condition for a sub-astronomical price). Which, if any, of these would you recommend (and why)? (Feel free to recommend others I have overlooked).

Thanks.

[Muirium]

Understood. I'm just in a fine bout of custom fever! It's building season. But, all that aside…

In the sub-TKL group, I'd recommend the HHKB, the Topre switch Leopold, and the Poker II in that order. The HHKB you know quite enough about: it's down to spending time with one. The Leopold is a fine alternative with the advantage of a metal plate and a less demanding layout. The Poker II is a very affordable and surprisingly well built taste of pure 60%, with an impressive potential for aftermarket caps. I would pine for the HHKB, and impulse buy the Poker!

For TKL, the Ducky Shine II is in dwindling supply. Its successor is coming in the autumn, so says Ducky Nordic who should know. Greens could be worth a shot; CM are much worse for switch choice here in Europe. There's less difference between Ducky, Filco, Leopold and CM than there is between the Cherry switches, so I'd tip trying greens, where you can, over trying other manufacturers' blues and browns. Ducky sometimes has them in TKL, but not for long. But the Realforce and the IBM are a cut above the rest, and are the two I would aim for, long term.

Anyway, I'm sure you've heard enough of my fawning over IBM and Topre already. With luck you'll find some fresh opinions besides.

[matt3o]

If you need audible and tactile satisfaction, my suggestion would be to avoid the Topre! They are too expensive to take the risk. Especially the 45gr variant, they are pretty light switches.

Having read the whole thread I doubt you'll find any sub TKL pleasing, but if you have to take one try the Poker2 (because you can easily change caps) or the Leopold (so you still have the arrow cluster).

In the TKL, if you have heavy fingers go for Cherry Green. If you really want to try Topre, I suggest the 55gr variant.

[Hypersphere]

If you need audible and tactile satisfaction, my suggestion would be to avoid the Topre! They are too expensive to take the risk. Especially the 45gr variant, they are pretty light switches.

Having read the whole thread I doubt you'll find any sub TKL pleasing, but if you have to take one try the Poker2 (because you can easily change caps) or the Leopold (so you still have the arrow cluster).

In the TKL, if you have heavy fingers go for Cherry Green. If you really want to try Topre, I suggest the 55gr variant.

Thanks for the sound advice. Reluctantly, I tend to agree. Unfortunately, I have been bitten by the KOB (keyboard obsession bug) and I feel compelled to try sub-TKLs (and TKLs as well) until I find one that works for me.

I still like the look of the HHKB Pro 2, but the layout might be too alien for me. At least there are keycaps available through EK.

The Poker 2 has indeed reasserted itself as a contender owing to its standard layout and keycap customizability. Would that it came with Cherry greens. One could really get into dressing this thing up with a set of custom keycaps and an aluminum case. In the end you would have spent over $300.

Among the sub-TKLs, the Leopold FC660C (Topre 45 g) and FC660M (Cherry blue or brown) look the most promising. EK told me that these two are not merely switch variants of each other; they are completely different boards that happen to share a very similar layout. On the surface, it is worth noting that the Win key on the Topre is 1.25x and on the Cherry it is 1.00x. Both have a mutated right-shift that is the same size as the left-shift. The keycaps on the FC660M look particularly bad to me; they are begging to be replaced, but with the 1.00x Win and short right-shift, you would need to take caps from two sets and/or get some custom caps.

Back to the TKLs, I have a CM RF Stealth on backorder. This looks like a solid TKL, but I ordered it mainly because it is the only board I could find with Cherry greens.

Before long, I am going to have a number of boards to sell. The frustration of not being able to find the combination of features I want off the shelf is making a custom-built board look more and more attractive.

[Muirium]

Try to make your mind up before we get into the production phase of our GB!

You're in the US, I presume?

[matt3o]

I can build a custom keyboard for you if you want, but unfortunately it won't be cheap

[Hypersphere]

I can build a custom keyboard for you if you want, but unfortunately it won't be cheap

Sounds tempting. However, it is a bad time for me just now owing to work projects, travel, and budget constraints. Nevertheless, if you wanted to PM me with some ballpark figures for future reference, that would be fine.

[abhibeckert]

I can build a custom keyboard for you if you want, but unfortunately it won't be cheap

Sounds tempting. However, it is a bad time for me just now owing to work projects, travel, and budget constraints. Nevertheless, if you wanted to PM me with some ballpark figures for future reference, that would be fine.

Or even better, post those ballpark figures here so others know what they are .

[Muirium]

Absolutely!

The group buy we're doing would get cheaper for everyone the more of "everyone" there is.

[Findecanor]

Matias has been making upgrade keyboards for the Mac for at least a decade, and the (frankly shite) design of Apple's previous generation of white and clear plastic keyboards still looms large across Matias' line. Even the Mac users among us (hi) don't want that look.

The QuietPro is at least "silver", I.e. metallic-grey plastic in the style of anodized aluminium. Personally, though, I hate fake metal plastic.
The problem is that plastics are not part of original Macintosh computes or peripherals any more, with the sole exception of the mouse... but the mouse is not getting that much attention .. so what are you going to choose?
For Matias next design, I think that they should go retro and look at the AEK (and AEKII) for inspiration. That is a beautiful Macintosh keyboard.

wanna visit Florence? I'll have you try a realforce and some wonderful T-Bone steak

Who does not want to visit Florence? A visit to Florence is on my list of "Things to do before I die".

[matt3o]

I can build a custom keyboard for you if you want, but unfortunately it won't be cheap

Sounds tempting. However, it is a bad time for me just now owing to work projects, travel, and budget constraints. Nevertheless, if you wanted to PM me with some ballpark figures for future reference, that would be fine.

Or even better, post those ballpark figures here so others know what they are .

The keyboard based on size, material, number and type of switches may go from €180 to €250 without keycaps and USB cable.

[Hypersphere]

Thanks. This is helpful.

[Muirium]

Here's Matteo's estimates of some other people's requests:

http://deskthority.net/marketplace-f11/ ... ml#p118348

Not bad for 100% high finish metal.

The components for this kind of design are:

• Laser cut metal layers for the body* and plate, this is the time limited part.
• Switches. €0.54 each for any colour of Cherry MX you like, from 7bit.
• Caps. You're investigating those yourself. Can vary from $10 for the Tai Hao double shot group buy right up to the fine stuff.
• A Teensy micro controller board. I paid €17 for mine, you get them for less in the US.
• Miscellaneous diodes, screws, feet and USB socket and cables. Inexpensive.

*The sides don't need to be metal. Matteo's own Brownfox uses acrylic, which I imagine shaves the price down too.

So you're in the driving seat. I went for a little 60% design, but splurged on caps. It's all up to you. Including the layout! Got any ideas?

[matt3o]

just a quick note. Don't underestimate the "inexpensive" material. It's easy to make €50 out of it There are some USB panel connectors (such the one that I used on the brownfox) that go for € 10-15 each. Also shrinking wires, screws (often sold at x100), nuts, ... it's a darn expensive hobby

[Muirium]

Good point. Tell us about these spare screws of yours! Do they put an upper limit on overall thickness we should look out for?

[matt3o]

Good point. Tell us about these spare screws of yours! Do they put an upper limit on overall thickness we should look out for?

I use M2.5 screws, 16mm tall. You can then cut the exceeding part if you want. M2.5 is a bastard size, you can find better screws in the M3+ realm and you probably can also find half nuts that size, but I wanted small screw heads. Also the bigger the screw the bigger the case sides/frame.

[abhibeckert]

I use M2.5 screws, 16mm tall. You can then cut the exceeding part if you want. M2.5 is a bastard size, you can find better screws in the M3+ realm and you probably can also find half nuts that size, but I wanted small screw heads. Also the bigger the screw the bigger the case sides/frame.

Have you considered glue? Maybe one that sticks about as well as sticky tape and the pieces can be pressed back together to re-stick them?

Apple uses it in a bunch of places - it works well when you just need to hold something in place but don't need a whole lot of strength (eg, hard drive temperature sensors in a mac are often stuck to the drive and you just pull it off and press onto the replacement drive).

[Muirium]

True, but the screws are structural in Matt's design:

I wouldn't want to rely on glue to hold this all together!

[matt3o]

I actually like the screws. They give that perestroika look to the keyboard. Aaanyway I'm trying to build myself a CNC... ('nuf said)