Word processing - what do you use?

[Findecanor]

FrameMaker does this without breaking a sweat, and it doesn't fuck up indentation or hierarchy when you go back and add a sub-bullet later, like Word does. FrameMaker also maintains formatting separately from content, so that's a big win. Plus, it's available on UNIX as well as Windows. There's no better tool for technical documentation than FrameMaker.

I remember I used it briefly on DEC Alpha workstations during my first stint of college. I preferred it over Microsoft Word back then.

Windows and MacOS have a horrible usability. They are very intuitive to use, but their usability is terrible.

I think that usability in Windows and MacOS GUIs have gone down in recent versions, where the look has taken precedence over feel. You can no longer look at every widget and directly understand what it does, because it no longer has borders or an intelligble symbol. You need to mouse over and try it out to find out what it is for.
Windows Explorer's path field is one improvement, though..

[NewGuy]

When they were ahead, people could name hundreds of things which were better. The dock this, the dock that. Now the Windows 7 taskbar is ahead, it is no longer a subject of comparison.

I'm very curious about why you think that is. I've been using Windows 7 since its release, and since the final SP1 was available online (months before its public release) it has been my primary operating system.


The taskbar in 7 is absolutely horrible to use, and makes Windows' ironically terrible window management even less functional than it was before.

Now when I switch to my web browser, I have to pick a tab from a row of thumbnails that pop up. Have more than one window open in an application? No way to quickly switch over to it.

Just last night I was actually trying to get some work done on it, while discussing things over Live messenger. Every time they sent a message, I had to click the WLM icon, and then select them from the thumbnails that popped up. When you're getting multiple messages a minute, and are trying to wrestle with four or five other applications, each with multiple documents open, looking for specific data inside them, you really notice how inefficient this is, and how much it slows things down.

Can't quickly alt-tab between things either, because that lists every single window you have open and all the documents I was going through looked identical.


On a Mac, if you click on an application in the dock, it brings all of its windows to the foreground. If you hold option (alt) it brings them to the foreground and hides everything else. If you hold the mouse down on it for a second, it shows all of that application's windows in exposé, letting you select which one you want brought to the foreground.

When switching between applications via the keyboard, you have two commands - one to switch between applications, and one to switch between windows inside an application. So if I'm looking through several documents at once in a PDF viewer, and have a conversation about those documents going on at the same time, I just hit CMD+Tab to switch between those two tasks instantly. If I'm currently reading a PDF in preview and need to switch to another document that's open, I hit CMD + ` to cycle through those windows. I don't have to hit Alt+Tab a varying number of times (depending on how many documents I switched to between messages) and actually look at the specific name of what document/conversation I want to switch to is.


I also have hot corners set up for exposé - if I mouse up to the top-right corner of the screen, my desktop is shown. Windows finally added something similar in 7 with aero peek, except I can't be dragging files, move to the corner while still holding them, and then relocate them. If I view the desktop with aero peek and then do anything, hitting the button just hides what I've done since then, rather than bringing all my other windows back - that only happens if I didn't do anything, making it absolutely useless to me.

If I mouse over the bottom-left corner of the screen, I'm shown all currently open windows, and if I mouse over the bottom-right of the screen, I'm shown all open windows in the current application. Once you get used to using this, it is considerably slower going back to using Windows.

In addition, there is some great virtual desktop management built into OSX, so you can separate out tasks to their own workspace.


In OSX, menus are tied to a system menu bar rather than being in the window of an application, giving you much more real-estate for actually getting work done in multiple windows, and ensuring that items are always in the same location. Windows seems mostly designed around only having one application open at a time in a maximised window. The only real exception to that is the new Aero snap, which is about the first good thing Microsoft has introduced with regard to window management. Personally I use Irradiated Software's Cinch and Size-Up on my Mac to add both this functionality, and the ability to quickly size windows into more of an 80/20 view, which lets me have a larger window for what I'm primarily working on, with a smaller "companion" window open at the side.



Also: the whole registry, and installing applications situation is a complete pain in Windows. Right now, I've just added a few more terrabytes to my main system, and want to move my boot drive off an ageing 500GB drive onto one of the new drives, but I can't just install windows to it and copy my applications over. I really need to do a fresh install of Windows and re-install every single application again. The only exception to this really seems to be Steam for games, which lets you just copy the files over to a new drive and takes care of the rest.

And don't get me started on the Ribbon UI that Microsoft is pushing everywhere...

I tried to get a Macbook. A Macbook without MacOS. I tried real hard. They don't let me. The pain!

You can't buy it without Mac OSX, but that's only costing you the equivalent of $29. (what it costs to buy new) It's trivial if you want to set up Windows on a MacBook and only ever run Windows/Linux on it.

When I want to get work done, I am particularly not using Windows or MacOS or Gnome or KDE or whatever. All of those systems have TERRIBLE usability.

What do you use then?!

[webwit]

Good argument. Most of it is about this:

In OSX, menus are tied to a system menu bar rather than being in the window of an application

The window handling etc. is tied to that. It is a different philosophy. I hate it, always have done. It doesn't click with me, didn't click with me 20 years ago, doesn't click today. You can have two visible windows, and the top bar belongs to one. I find it confusing. You speak of screen estate, but the OSX bar takes exactly that. Most Windows apps don't even show the menu any longer by default (their abandonment of Common User Access is another discussion...)

But even if you like it, in all gui multiple windows of the same app are losing, because they add so much complexity. They are losing to tabs. Remember the days when your browser didn't have tabs? And within the app you can easily switch between tabs. I don't know what you are doing and keeping opened, but on the OS I'm running now I have 12 apps open, 4 have multiple views, of which 3 do it by tabs, leaving just one with multiple windows.

Btw, Windows has settings for the taskbar grouping method and such and some nice shortcuts. Registry is a fuckup, but who cares? I haven't broken it in this millennium, and for purity I run a BSD.

[NewGuy]

The window handling etc. is tied to that. It is a different philosophy. I hate it, always have done. It doesn't click with me, didn't click with me 20 years ago, doesn't click today. You can have two visible windows, and the top bar belongs to one. I find it confusing. You speak of screen estate, but the OSX bar takes exactly that. Most Windows apps don't even show the menu any longer by default (their abandonment of Common User Access is another discussion...)

Oh, I can't stand that trend for Windows applications where they don't show any menus until you hit alt. Every time I have to do that to access something, and it happens fairly regularly, it feels like I'm doing something wrong, or I've completely missed something about how the program is supposed to work.

Having a system menu bar makes a lot more sense to me. It means the application window is more focused on the task you are doing, and the "OS elements" get out of your way. Whenever you need to access a menu, you always know exactly where it is going to be, because it doesn't move.

With lots of Windows open, especially when they aren't tiled, accessing the menus is a real nuisance in Windows applications, and it's wasting screen real-estate. (because you have multiple visible menus, rather than only seeing the menu relevant to your current window)

But even if you like it, in all gui multiple windows of the same app are losing, because they add so much complexity. They are losing to tabs. Remember the days when your browser didn't have tabs? And within the app you can easily switch between tabs. I don't know what you are doing and keeping opened, but on the OS I'm running now I have 12 apps open, 4 have multiple views, of which 3 do it by tabs, leaving just one with multiple windows.

While tabs are great, there are still plenty of reasons to use multiple windows as well, and the taskbar behaviour in Windows 7 essentially treats tabs as windows now. In the example from last night, I was looking over technical documents from three separate organizations, so each had their own window, with multiple PDFs in tabs.

Btw, Windows has settings for the taskbar grouping method and such and some nice shortcuts.

It does, but the dock, and window management in OSX with exposé and virtual desktops is still significantly more usable than Windows.

If you've been using Windows all your life (as I had been until maybe 6/7 years ago) doing things in OSX will definitely feel weird. Give it a few weeks, or maybe a month to learn it, and you'll never want to go back.

Registry is a fuckup, but who cares? I haven't broken it in this millennium, and for purity I run a BSD.

It's never been "broken" for me, but I still have to go into the registry to remove certain things from loading upon startup, and it means that applications are a nuisance to migrate from one drive to another.

The vast majority of applications on OSX are, to the user, a single file. That file can be placed anywhere on any of the drives connected to your machine and it will work. Want to remove it? Just put it in the trash.

No uninstalling necessary, no headaches if you want to move it to another drive. It's as easy as moving a text document over.

Any application data is stored in your user library folder (which can also just be moved anywhere you like) and preferences are stored in the preferences folder inside your library. (this will usually contain things like CD keys etc.)

On Windows, applications have files spread all over the place, and you basically have to uninstall them and re-install them in a new location if you want to relocate them.

I want to move my current Windows 7 install from an old 500GB drive to one of my new 2TB drives, and it would essentially require me to do a complete re-install of everything and re-configure it all. (none of the partition clone & expansion utilities I've seen have worked properly with the GPT disks that an EFI system requires)

[webwit]

In the example from last night, I was looking over technical documents from three separate organizations, so each had their own window, with multiple PDFs in tabs.

Man, I do this every night.

[NewGuy]

In the example from last night, I was looking over technical documents from three separate organizations, so each had their own window, with multiple PDFs in tabs.

Man, I do this every night.

It isn't something that happens all the time, but it was still a real nuisance, and hasn't caused me issues on OSX before with its window management.

[webwit]

I concur that in those very complex cases it's easier to switch between windows of one app on OS X. Other than that the Windows taskbar is much cleaner and easier to use. If you hate the grouping, you can turn it off. I like the thumb previews myself. The dock is actually fugly, and a generation behind.

The abandonment of CUI as pioneered by IBM's CUA is another matter. I'm not sure if it wise, although one would think it is a move that would appeal to OS X users. It's a move for simplicity, at the expense of consistency. It works if you only use a couple of apps. If you don't, you don't know where to look anymore for certain functionality. On the other hand, it was outdated. File, Edit, etc. those were menus for the pre-Internet age. I think it would have been better if they found a new organization.

[NewGuy]

I concur that in those very complex cases it's easier to switch between windows of one app on OS X. Other than that the Windows taskbar is much cleaner and easier to use. If you hate the grouping, you can turn it off. I like the thumb previews myself. The dock is actually fugly, and a generation behind.

If you turn off the grouping, you end up with a ton of similar items cluttering up the taskbar though. The old XP-style grouping was far more efficient as a list rather than horizontally expanding thumbnails.


I'm not sure what it is that you think is ugly about the dock, or what makes it "a generation behind" though.

The abandonment of CUI as pioneered by IBM's CUA is another matter. I'm not sure if it wise, although one would think it is a move that would appeal to OS X users. It's a move for simplicity, at the expense of consistency. It works if you only use a couple of apps. If you don't, you don't know where to look anymore for certain functionality. On the other hand, it was outdated. File, Edit, etc. those were menus for the pre-Internet age. I think it would have been better if they found a new organization.

Simplicity only works when it doesn't get in the way of productivity. I have yet to find a Windows application that hides the menus by default where I have never needed to access the menus. I think a web browser is about the only application that can really get away with it.

[webwit]

It's a generation behind in smoothness of operation with the mouse (you hover and click), and Windows 7 has these great hover-over previews, which it does group, strangely to your dismay. Nice right-click actions. I bet Apple will add those previews in their next gen.

Fugly, ugly, schmugly:



Aaarg...the faux 3D, the bended stacking, the mirror effect, the screen estate, THE MESS! Looks like my neighbour kid made it, thinking the 3D was cool and stuff. It looks like the nineties powered by a modern computer.

[NewGuy]

It's a generation behind in smoothness of operation with the mouse (you hover and click), and Windows 7 has these great hover-over previews, which it does group, strangely to your dismay. Nice right-click actions. I bet Apple will add those previews in their next gen.

Fugly, ugly, schmugly:

http://media.arstechnica.com/reviews/os ... -stack.jpg

Aaarg...the faux 3D, the bended stacking, the mirror effect, the screen estate, THE MESS! Looks like my neighbour kid made it, thinking the 3D was cool and stuff. It looks like the nineties powered by a modern computer.

Oh, I forgot the dock can even look that way. (that screenshot is from an old version of OSX for what it's worth)
The first thing I do on a Mac is switch to the 2D dock and, and for any folders I have on it, I use the list view with the stacked icons turned off.


(the dock, and the folder contents list look like the right-hand side)

[webwit]

You are beginning to look like a fanboy. You argue everything the way to your favorite baby. When I compare two OS, I note one is better in some points, the other in some other points, and then I call a winner. It's, in this case, what you get if you put the entire collective of Redmond vs that of Cupertino in various generations of OS. But magically, you seem to think every single thing about OS X is better. Your baby's dock is behind. It was never good to begin with. Get to grips with it. Steve Jobs agrees with me. I know this because I traveled to the future to witness the release of the next OS version, where it was replaced by something else, because it sucked.

[NewGuy]

You are beginning to look like a fanboy. You argue everything the way to your favorite baby. When I compare two OS, I note one is better in some points, the other in some other points, and then I call a winner. It's, in this case, what you get if you put the entire collective of Redmond vs that of Cupertino in various generations of OS. But magically, you seem to think every single thing about OS X is better. Your baby's dock is behind. It was never good to begin with. Get to grips with it. Steve Jobs agrees with me. I know this because I traveled to the future to witness the release of the next OS version, where it was replaced by something else, because it sucked.

Well I can't beat the future.

[webwit]

Winner!

Now excuse me while I get back to my BSD. A manly OS for men. Shitty windows and apple toys..

[JBert]

I had a reply typed out, but after I accidentally lost I'm just going to link to some articles:

http://www.joelonsoftware.com/uibook/ch ... 00063.html (tells how Fitt's law came into all of this)

http://www.codinghorror.com/blog/2006/0 ... width.html (or visually showing why Apple chose to abandon CUA: they ditched it to favor an implementation Fitt's law)


In case you still wonder why modern Windows apps are hiding the menu, try this with Firefox's "tabs on top" feature enabled and the menu bar disabled:
* open two to three tabs
* maximize Firefox
* push your mouse 10-20cm away from you.
* notice your pointer is sticking to the top edge of the screen
* diagonally move your pointer until it's above a non-focussed tab
* click
* notice it activated the tab you were hovering above without actually being in the 500 square pixels making up the "tab"

This works with the standard minimize, maximize and close buttons as well, and notice how they added corner functions to Aero...

[webwit]

I think there should be a 1 point score reduction for quoting joelonsoftware. No Joel, I won't buy your software. But hey, nice seo and marketing.

However, Joel's point is noted. Top bar is easier to reach for people who want to use advanced functions but can't use the mouse. I once saw a user go through those menus, desperately looking for some function he would never find, because the top bar belonged to another visible window. It isn't all sunshine.

[JBert]

I think there should be a 1 point score reduction for quoting joelonsoftware. No Joel, I won't buy your software. But hey, nice seo and marketing.

Alright, so quoting nearly anyone with a good point on the Internet loses points according to those principles, as even this comprehensible article on e-mail validating regexes touts a big fat link to a probably respectable software product.
[EDIT] Oh, and Googling for something mostly introduces pages with advertisements too.

But I digress.

However, Joel's point is noted. Top bar is easier to reach for people who want to use advanced functions but can't use the mouse. I once saw a user go through those menus, desperately looking for some function he would never find, because the top bar belonged to another visible window. It isn't all sunshine.

I linked to Joel's essay to give an insight into the why and that recent GUI changes are not some random thing (as in "say wouldn't it look fancy to have button x over there?")

Your point still stands: the system bar is an implementation of Fitt's law, but that doesn't mean it isn't broken (I thought my previous post mentioned the broken part, but it got lost). Vice versa, the menu bars on Windows don't take Fitt's law into account and hence aren't as user-friendly as they could be. Ergo, GUI's still suck, which is what you were saying IIRC.


... now give me my keyboard shortcuts back and get off my lawn.

[webwit]

* stands guiltily facing one of the room's corners, repeatedly mumbling "I won't ad hominem joel again, I won't ad hominem joel again.." *