Lenovo bold move

[matt3o]

Look at this



I don't know how it would be working on this keyboard, but I must say that I'm glad to see big companies trying to kill that damned caps lock!

The keyboard is from the new X1 carbon.

What do you think?

[Findecanor]

Oh, I've ranted against it a lot today on GH and Ars. I'll do the short version:

Home/end: Lots of people prefer the Control key in that position. Now you can't map Caps Lock to Control which you were able to do before.
Caps Lock replacement: To activate Caps Lock mode, you tap the Left Shift key twice. That will happen too often by mistake. Windows users are already outraged about Sticky Keys being activated by tapping shift three times. People must be told how to disable Caps Lock because that is not something that comes intuitively. It is unclear whether sticky keys will be possible if you would want them.
Del/Backspace: It would have been better to have BS to the right and Del to the left, or Del somewhere else entirely.
Fn-keys: I don't use the Fn-keys very often, but when I do need them I do need to press them repeatedly, so I will need to feel the keys.

[scottc]

I think it's hideous. And not even useful. Screw you, Lenovo, for making a joke out of the Thinkpad name.

[rindorbrot]

Am I blind or is there no Fn key at all? How do you use F1-F12?
And why that enormous Ctrl key, looks like a lot wasted space there to me.

[scottc]

Am I blind or is there no Fn key at all? How do you use F1-F12?

Maybe that's what the top-left button does, swaps from media -> F1-F12?

[rindorbrot]

Am I blind or is there no Fn key at all? How do you use F1-F12?

Maybe that's what the top-left button does, swaps from media -> F1-F12?

Ahh, you are probably right, it looks like it says Fn on it.

[matt3o]

Oh, I've ranted against it a lot today on GH and Ars. I'll do the short version:

Home/end: Lots of people prefer the Control key in that position. Now you can't map Caps Lock to Control which you were able to do before.
Caps Lock replacement: To activate Caps Lock mode, you tap the Left Shift key twice. That will happen too often by mistake. Windows users are already outraged about Sticky Keys being activated by tapping shift three times. People must be told how to disable Caps Lock because that is not something that comes intuitively. It is unclear whether sticky keys will be possible if you would want them.
Del/Backspace: It would have been better to have BS to the right and Del to the left, or Del somewhere else entirely.
Fn-keys: I don't use the Fn-keys very often, but when I do need them I do need to press them repeatedly, so I will need to feel the keys.

I agree on all except for the backspace position. I always hit it to the left of the cap because it is easier/faster to reach. So lenovo position seems legit.

[scottc]

I agree on all except for the backspace position. I always hit it to the left of the cap because it is easier/faster to reach. So lenovo position seems legit.

Same here, except putting delete right there beside it is just going to be annoying regardless (imo).

[matt3o]

maybe you are right. I should try it... actually I have to buy a win machine for testing, this might be it.

[tlt]

What is the argument for having control in the cap lock position?

[scottc]

maybe you are right. I should try it... actually I have to buy a win machine for testing, this might be it.

If the current X1 Carbon prices are anything to go by (~2500 eur to get decent specs), that would be a very expensive test rig... I just do that sort of stuff in VMs or dual-boots on my desktop.

[matt3o]

maybe you are right. I should try it... actually I have to buy a win machine for testing, this might be it.

If the current X1 Carbon prices are anything to go by (~2500 eur to get decent specs), that would be a very expensive test rig... I just do that sort of stuff in VMs or dual-boots on my desktop.

unfortunately I need "touch", anyway like I said it is for testing, it doesn't need to be full spec'd

[scottc]

maybe you are right. I should try it... actually I have to buy a win machine for testing, this might be it.

If the current X1 Carbon prices are anything to go by (~2500 eur to get decent specs), that would be a very expensive test rig... I just do that sort of stuff in VMs or dual-boots on my desktop.

unfortunately I need "touch", anyway like I said it is for testing, it doesn't need to be full spec'd

Oh sure, that makes sense. I'm just a bit anti-Lenovo after shitty experiences with their Thinkpads so I'm slightly biased against them

[matt3o]

really? I always thought they were top-notch quality. What would you suggest as an alternative?

[scottc]

Without knowing that they were "low-end" Thinkpads, I got an X121e for about €600 two years ago. It looks like a proper Thinkpad, but the inner chassis isn't completely metal, which is what makes previous Thinkpads feel so robust and nice. I had constant problems with a hinges breaking over that time and it was generally really, really poorly built in comparison to earlier Thinkpads. They refused to acknowledge that the hinge problem was a fundamental design flaw and continue to repair it (I even found a whole community of disgruntled X121e buyers on the Thinkpad forums here). I later found out that since it has an e on the end of the model number that it's part of the "Edge" series of Thinkpads, which are basically laptops that looks like the other Thinkpads but are made really poorly to save money. In the end, the hinge problem killed the laptop: since the hinge was always wobbly and falling off, eventually it started putting a lot of pressure on a cable going to the LCD backlight and that stopped working.

A friend of mine spent about three times what I did on an X220 a few months before me and he's had problems with the motherboard and monitor several times each. That laptop seems to have spent almost a few months of its lifespan in the IBM repair center...

Re: alternatives, I really don't know... I'm looking for alternatives now, but I really can't find many high-quality ultra-portable yet powerful laptops to run Linux on. I found these guys who do very nice-looking Ubuntu laptops but they seem to be Canadian-based. I'm pretty sure they have a touch version, but because of my crappy Lenovo experience I'm slightly anxious about any laptop's build quality so I'm not sure. I'm genuinely considering just getting a Macbook Air, covering the Apple light up and installing Debian on it, for the build quality alone...

Edit: I also forgot to complain about the build quality of the chassis! I kept the laptop in the official Thinkpad sleeve for the entire first year of its life, but within 3-4 months of buying it there were small fractures in the plastic all over the case. The laptop has a lot of flex and I think this put a lot of pressure on the plastic, causing it to crack in several places. The plastic in front of the side fan also broke off for the same reason. It's currently held together with superglue. Lenovo said that they do not cover "aesthetic or material issues" and wouldn't repair it. All in all, a very poor experience.

[matt3o]

DELLs are quite linux friendly.

Linux on MBA has some glitches. It installs pretty well, you have to add the wifi driver manually, but it has issues with the suspend mode that I couldn't solve (but admittedly I haven't tried too hard).

[scottc]

DELLs are quite linux friendly.

Linux on MBA has some glitches. It installs pretty well, you have to add the wifi driver manually, but it has issues with the suspend mode that I couldn't solve (but admittedly I haven't tried too hard).

That's a shame. Maybe I'll get one of the System76 laptops I linked. They seem pretty good, but 14.1" is a bit too big for me.

[matt3o]

have you looked into this?
http://www.dell.com/ie/business/p/xps-1 ... aspx?s=bsd

[scottc]

have you looked into this?
http://www.dell.com/ie/business/p/xps-1 ... aspx?s=bsd

I actually had, but was turned off by the fact that it was about the same price as the equivalent Macbook (with student discount from Apple I would get i7/8GB/128GB SSD for €1250). I didn't know that the Dell came with the larger SSD and full HD screen, so actually that's very nice, thanks!

Have you heard of pcspecialist.co.uk? They are a UK shop that assemble custom laptops from some other OEMs like Clevo. They're a lot cheaper than "big" manufacturer laptops and you don't have to pay for a Windows license. I can't stand their chiclet keyboards, though, they feel weird to me.

[7bit]

They should have split up all other keys as well, plus making a buckling spring keyboard. I'd buy it immediately!

[scottc]

They should have split up all other keys as well, plus making a buckling spring keyboard. I'd buy it immediately!

Yes, the world's first 5kg ultraportable laptop?!

[matt3o]

Have you heard of pcspecialist.co.uk?

wow! very nice pricing! thanks! they also ship to Italy and super customizable. What's the catch?!

[scottc]

No problem! A few of my friends have them (the 11.6" gaming ones with Ivybridge) and swear by them. The keyboards aren't fantastic, but that's to be expected. You can actually get them even cheaper if you buy the Clevo chassis/motherboard combo and processor/RAM/etc separately, but that's more hassle. I'm waiting for them to get a 12 - 13" one with a 1080p screen and nice battery and then I'll be happy, but for now lots of them are low (1366*768) or come with big gaming graphics cards that will ruin their battery.

[Grond]

So now Capslock is Home/End in Lenovo computers, and it's Search on the Chromebooks. What's next? If each single company keeps coming up with a different solution, we'll just end up with a mess. Standard keyboard layouts haven't changed too much since the times of the Model M, and a lot of tweaks would be possible and useful. But unless the major companies agree on a common standard - and I don't really see this coming - I think these novelties will just be an annoyance to most users.

[davkol]

That Caps Lock (both physical key and its replacement) would drive me mad. One of the reason, why I probably won't get anything newer than X230, if my current X200T fails. I guess it's time to look into laptop barebones...

[Daniel Beardsmore]

have you looked into this?
http://www.dell.com/ie/business/p/xps-1 ... aspx?s=bsd

I hope that's better than the Latitude 13! Dell ran the HDD ribbon cable over (from an inverted perspective) the SD card reader frame, where it chafed against the inside of the case and wore out. Same story: all Dell would do is keep replacing the cable until the warranty ran out.

[scottc]

have you looked into this?
http://www.dell.com/ie/business/p/xps-1 ... aspx?s=bsd

I hope that's better than the Latitude 13! Dell ran the HDD ribbon cable over (from an inverted perspective) the SD card reader frame, where it chafed against the inside of the case and wore out. Same story: all Dell would do is keep replacing the cable until the warranty ran out.

I've heard no good things about Dell build quality in the past. Sounds like the same story over and over again.

[webwit]

http://hardware.slashdot.org/story/14/0 ... them-worse

[Grond]

http://hardware.slashdot.org/story/14/0 ... them-worse

I totally agree with that!

Also: what about that F-row? Those touch buttons or whatever they are called are just bad in every device I tried them. I have them on my Samsung screen/tv for an instance, and they make some sense there – you seldomly use them, and they go unnoticed in the design. But how in the world can they replace physical keys on a keyboard? Come on. If you don't want an F-row, just scrap at it all. But the truth is, F keys are still useful occasionally, and they can double as media and special functions. Apple has been doing it right for a long time, in my opinion.

[davkol]

OTOH such drama, but look at any 60% keyboard (or any vintage keyboard for a platform other than IBM PC) and there are usually even more radical changes.

TBH, if I were a keyboard designer, I'd change even more things. You know, just to make a bunch of conservatives upset. The same people that can argue for days what is better, whether QWERTY, or QWERTZ; whether ISO, or big-ass Enter etc. Too bad the market is traditionally based on path dependency.