Tipro newbie questions

[Jahf]

Apologies if these have been answered a bunch in the past, I've been lurking and searching for a couple of days and am still not sure on these. If stuff below HAS been answered before in a place I should have seen, feel free to refer me to a link for a question instead of needing to type it all back out.

I've been looking (for a long time) for a keyboard setup that does what I am looking for. Citrojohn on Reddit was nice enough to point me at Tipro and that led me here.

I managed to snag a Tipro Free 128-key UK alphanumeric (KMCV C15). Price wasn't amazing but was still significantly cheaper than most of the options I had been looking at. Once I have confirmation mine has shipped I'll link it ;) since they have a couple more in stock. I won't have it for a couple of weeks due to international shipping so I'm looking at picking up some of my customization stuff while waiting.

Questions:

1. Not a big deal, but just to set my mind at ease about either programming the board in Linux or a day when Changeme isn't updated any longer ... has anyone had luck programming the board while running Changeme under a virtual machine? If not, I'll dedicate an ancient-but-working laptop to be my backup programmer.
2. This is a USB/PS2 unit (I'll be using USB). When looking for extra modules (programmable numpad is my most likely choice) do I need to make sure the additional module uses USB for external connection? I am not sure about the module extension bus connection so I don't know if older used PS2 modules can connect to the USB keyboard in USB mode.
3. Similar to above, are there and physical side profile issues to be aware of with additional modules? (as in, is the height at the front/back and pitch the same on all modules from a case mounting perspective)
4. If I can find one, is the Chameleon module compatible with the keyboard module I'm getting? I'm not sold on it over the standard numpad, but I can see some interesting possibilities.
5. Which vertical 2x1 caps work on the rows of programmable keys above the alpha keys?
   Example: will either of these work with the pitch of the programmable keys:
   • WASD R1 2x1 (numpad Enter)
   • WASD R2 2x1 (numpad +)
   (just using WASD as an easy reference, not locked into them)
   ... or do I need to buy 2x1 caps specifically made for Tipro (found them but rather expensive for unpainted plain keys)
6. Are there any retail sources of keycaps for the programmable keys in 2x2 configuration?
7. It LOOKS like the unit I'm buying has black blank 1x1s on the programmable area. Is there a retail resource for finding the clear topped caps that allow for inserting labels?
8. This will be my first time using Cherry MX Blacks, but, I've used Reds before and my fingers are heavy enough (and I'm not doing tons of text typing) that I'm not concerned about the added activation force. I am curious about adding spacer o-rings for at least the alpha keys (both to minimize travel and to muffle the keys a bit since I am often typing while wife is in the next room over). Any experiences with o-rings on the Tipros?
9. The front height of the Tipro looks to be pretty low. I'll likely end up rigging a pad to raise it slightly and would like to have a 2" or so wrist wrest. If there are any that work well on the Tipro aside from the generic wrests (I prefer hard rests to squishy ones, by far), that pointer would be welcome.

Thanks for any and all assistance!

PS. I'm not buying all the customization items before I get the board in. I realize I might just hate typing on it as the spacing on alpha rows is not quite standard. Trying to get the ducks in a row now so if it fits me well I can get the customization stuff done ASAP.

[DerpyDash_xAD]

In regards to number 5, the shape of the nnumpad enter will probably be wrong. Compare 2u backspace shape with nnumpad enter and nnumpad plus.

[DerpyDash_xAD]

My phones autocorrect is terrible and has decided that numpad shall henceforth be rendered as nnumpad...

[Myoth]

Any experiences with o-rings on the Tipros?

I can't respond to that question as I have never had any Tipro, though I must say while o-ring silence your board quite a bit, it doesn't feel good. It feels mushy and meh on Blues, it feels the same on Browns and it will probably feel the same for Blacks. If you really want to customize your board a bit while still wanting to have Blacks, there is a groub buys right now for silenced blacks. I don't if the Tipro is pcb or plate mounted but if it's pcb mounted, you'll have little to no problem opening up the switches, replace the stems with silenced ones and close it down !

[Jahf]

It's plate mounted so not going to be able to do a "switch out". But thanks all for the feedback so far.

[kbdfr]

[…]
Not a big deal, but just to set my mind at ease about either programming the board in Linux or a day when Changeme isn't updated any longer ... has anyone had luck programming the board while running Changeme under a virtual machine? If not, I'll dedicate an ancient-but-working laptop to be my backup programmer.

I rather doubt Tipro will cease updating ChangeMe in any foreseeable future. After all, they do not manufacture just keyboards, but a whole range of modular units like touchcomputers, voice communication modules and the like.

This is a USB/PS2 unit (I'll be using USB). When looking for extra modules (programmable numpad is my most likely choice) do I need to make sure the additional module uses USB for external connection? I am not sure about the module extension bus connection so I don't know if older used PS2 modules can connect to the USB keyboard in USB mode.

What you have is not a USB/PS2 unit, but a USB unit with PS2 ports for secundary units to be attached to it. This doesn't play a role anyway, because additional Tipro modules (USB or PS2 is indifferent there) are connected internally using a small flat cable (included in every unit) which you just plug into a small connector present on either side of each Tipro keyboard PCB.

Similar to above, are there and physical side profile issues to be aware of with additional modules? (as in, is the height at the front/back and pitch the same on all modules from a case mounting perspective)

All units are directly compatible: remove the side covers and you'll be able to physically (and electronically, see above) join them as long as you have the (more modern and in my opinion intolerably ugly) Free/KMX modules (like yours) and not the nice MID range (like mine).

If I can find one, is the Chameleon module compatible with the keyboard module I'm getting? I'm not sold on it over the standard numpad, but I can see some interesting possibilities.

Yes, see above. Finding one is easy, I have one which I would sell

Which vertical 2x1 caps work on the rows of programmable keys above the alpha keys?
Example: will either of these work with the pitch of the programmable keys:
[…] ... or do I need to buy 2x1 caps specifically made for Tipro (found them but rather expensive for unpainted plain keys)

You need caps with two stems fitting the two switches they cover while usual vertical 2u keycaps have one central stem for the switch and two additional stems (placed differently from those in the former) for the stabilizers.

Are there any retail sources of keycaps for the programmable keys in 2x2 configuration?

If you mean 2x2 and not 2x1 or 1x2, I may have 1 black one.

It LOOKS like the unit I'm buying has black blank 1x1s on the programmable area. Is there a retail resource for finding the clear topped caps that allow for inserting labels?

Any Cherry compatible 1x1 programmable caps will fit, I have quite a few of the - but not black ones, though.

This will be my first time using Cherry MX Blacks, but, I've used Reds before and my fingers are heavy enough (and I'm not doing tons of text typing) that I'm not concerned about the added activation force. I am curious about adding spacer o-rings for at least the alpha keys (both to minimize travel and to muffle the keys a bit since I am often typing while wife is in the next room over). Any experiences with o-rings on the Tipros?

I'm a heavy-handed typist working hours on end on a Tipro with blacks and don't need that modern stuff

The front height of the Tipro looks to be pretty low. I'll likely end up rigging a pad to raise it slightly and would like to have a 2" or so wrist wrest. If there are any that work well on the Tipro aside from the generic wrests (I prefer hard rests to squishy ones, by far), that pointer would be welcome. […]

As a matter of fact, the KMX range of Tipro keyboards has a rather high front end compared to the MID range.


A few hints:

• be aware that Free/KMX Tipro boards are on offer with two different hues of black: deep dark black and dark anthracite.
• as double keys push down two switches, they require double finger force. Removing the spring from one of the switches (which requires desoldering as they are plate-mounted) makes a stabilizer out of the springless switch and reduces the required force to 1xswitch (similar applies even more, of course, to quadruple keys).
• in Tipro boards there is nothing like "rows of programmable keys above the alpha keys". You can program every single key of the whole keyboard exactly the way you want, for example a complicated macro on the space bar or, why not, Ʃ on the Enter key if you feel like it.
• should you (as I do) hate the non-standard staggering of the KMX range, give the much nicer MID range a try

[pixelheresy]

1. Not a big deal, but just to set my mind at ease about either programming the board in Linux or a day when Changeme isn't updated any longer ... has anyone had luck programming the board while running Changeme under a virtual machine? If not, I'll dedicate an ancient-but-working laptop to be my backup programmer.

Actually, if you have a USB one, ChangeMe should work fine with Oracle VirtualBox. I have a Mac and I have a tiny Windows 95 image just dedicated to programming my Tipro MID setup. You do need to capture the USB device for the Tipro once the VM starts up, but once it is seen and connected, it is 100% programmable on a non-Windows machine. I imagine it would be no different under Linux.

[Jahf]

@kbdfr ... I actually like the looks of the newer model Not just because it is black (whichever black it is). It actually fits with my other gear. Aesthetics are silly but count.

But the cost went way up once VAT and shipping got added in the final order so I haven't pulled the trigger yet. Hoping this weekend I find a place in the US with one. If not then my main stumbling block left is mulling over if I can deal with the .25 stagger difference. I'd look at a MID but not having much more luck finding those available right now anyway. Might turn this into a long-term unicorn hunt but really want to replace this aging thing I'm touching.

After thinking about Chameleon vs Numpad I've decided numpad just works better. Appreciate the offer

I agree that Tipro likely won't stop updating Changeme. But I might stop using Windows (again) as my daily driver. Being able to use it in a VM allows me to program it from whatever.

@pixelheresy ... perfect. That is what I was assuming but didn't have a way to test.

Any pointers at US sources I should be monitoring? I've been watching Ebay and googling as best I can.

[kbdfr]

@kbdfr ... I actually like the looks of the newer model Not just because it is black (whichever black it is). It actually fits with my other gear. Aesthetics are silly but count.

But the cost went way up once VAT and shipping got added in the final order so I haven't pulled the trigger yet. Hoping this weekend I find a place in the US with one. If not then my main stumbling block left is mulling over if I can deal with the .25 stagger difference. I'd look at a MID but not having much more luck finding those available right now anyway. Might turn this into a long-term unicorn hunt but really want to replace this aging thing I'm touching. […]

If you are looking for the KMX model, do start a search thread here on DT, there are several members who have them.
And if interested in a black MID model, now look here

[Menuhin]

Do all MID models support NKRO and all KMX models do not?

[kbdfr]

Do all MID models support NKRO and all KMX models do not?

MID models do not, don't know about KMX.

[Menuhin]

I was all excited about the Tipro - It's basically a well maintained whole package, until it beeps me here and there whenever I press a few more keys at a time. I soon found out they are all 2KRO keyboards (not even 6KRO).

Most of the daily applications I use involve a lot of short cut keys, e.g. Emacs, and whenever I press 2 or 3+ keys or press them in too quick successions, it will not do the work for me. :\

[t8c]

You can remove the beeper! I would kill for a Tipro MID-like keyboard with NKRO.

[Phenix]

Do all MID models support NKRO and all KMX models do not?

MID models do not, don't know about KMX.

Is there any reason why a MID75% plus a 8x4.matrix doesn't get detected on a powered USB 3 hub with win7 64Bit? It claims 'too many USB hubs in use' while I only use one..

[Menuhin]

You can remove the beeper! I would kill for a Tipro MID-like keyboard with NKRO.

I'm totally in to have a Tipro conversion project to let you commit some mass murder. However, I don't have so much time on my hand and that I'm fairly a newbie in terms of electronics.

[Jahf]

If you are looking for the KMX model, do start a search thread here on DT, there are several members who have them.
And if interested in a black MID model, now look here

Thanks I sent you a PM after looking at that thread. Given my hesitance on the KMX stagger I'll start off seeing if your MID works for me. If not I have a person to gift it to later on.

[pixelheresy]

You don't have to be an electrical pro/have a soldering iron to disable the beeper. If you aren't inclined to solder it back on at any point, just clip the one pin on the beeper and (for good measure) stick a tiny piece of electrical tape or the like over it. It will never beep again.

Honestly, for something without N-key rollover (and something that beeps with little provocation), I never had any rollover/ghosting related issues with my MID setup, even though I am a fairly fast typist. Before I killed it, it would beep like a demon all the time, but never really had a stutter or miss.

[kbdfr]

I was all excited about the Tipro - It's basically a well maintained whole package, until it beeps me here and there whenever I press a few more keys at a time. I soon found out they are all 2KRO keyboards (not even 6KRO).

Most of the daily applications I use involve a lot of short cut keys, e.g. Emacs, and whenever I press 2 or 3+ keys or press them in too quick successions, it will not do the work for me. :\

You can type so fast that you cause the keyboard to beep, but ti will still send the codes in the correct order. I never had a problem in several years of using a Tipro as my daily driver.

Regarding KRO, why not program combos on one single key? After all a Tipro has plenty of them - and each is programmable on 4 layers

[pixelheresy]

You can type so fast that you cause the keyboard to beep, but ti will still send the codes in the correct order. I never had a problem in several years of using a Tipro as my daily driver.

100% agree. Killed the beeper on my controller board, but seriously never had any weird rollover-related/ghosting/missed key issues. It seems to queue them up and queue them up well. I literally have to *try* holding down several to get it to miss a key on a column.

Verdict: if you are looking to use it for typing, coding, macros, badassery, the Tipro is super nice. If you are looking for a gaming rig, not sure. From what little I have done on my Tipro, a WASD setup seems to work fine, but I am not an elite hardcore gamer or anything..

[Menuhin]

I can't live without key combos (e.g. in Emacs) that involving holding down 2-3 keys down at the same time and then combinations in sequence to trigger commands. In Tipro some of those never worked, plus I got beeped.

If I program combos into single keys that will take time for me to adapt to it - With all those "chords" combined in difference sequences, there will be a lot to memorize (> 30 just for a single extension like Org-mode within Emacs) and the self-defined shortcut keys learned will not be so transferable to all other keyboards.

I will desolder the beeper and try it again and report about how serious is the chording and combos issue again.

[pixelheresy]

I can't live without key combos (e.g. in Emacs) that involving holding down 2-3 keys down at the same time and then combinations in sequence to trigger commands. In Tipro some of those never worked, plus I got beeped.

There's your problem. #vimmasterrace

Try it out. It may be moot... it may not be. The beep happens way before issues, but that's that. I can't say that Tipros are for everyone.

Also, the board is very accessible and cleanly laid out, so it may be possible to add a few capacitors inline on the ground pin right? Should be an easy mod for any of the meta keys and basically up the rollover up a level.

[kbdfr]

I can't live without key combos (e.g. in Emacs) that involving holding down 2-3 keys down at the same time and then combinations in sequence to trigger commands. In Tipro some of those never worked, plus I got beeped.

If I program combos into single keys that will take time for me to adapt to it - With all those "chords" combined in difference sequences, there will be a lot to memorize (> 30 just for a single extension like Org-mode within Emacs) and the self-defined shortcut keys learned will not be so transferable to all other keyboards.

I will desolder the beeper and try it again and report about how serious is the chording and combos issue again.

I don't know much about programming (my only and short experience with programming was in BASIC some 30 years ago ),
so could you give examples of combos and/or sequences you use, and if possible particularly those causing real trouble,
i.e. not simply beeps, but complete nonfunction due by KRO problems?
I love solving problems

[Menuhin]

I can't live without key combos (e.g. in Emacs) that involving holding down 2-3 keys down at the same time and then combinations in sequence to trigger commands. In Tipro some of those never worked, plus I got beeped.

There's your problem. #vimmasterrace

Try it out. It may be moot... it may not be. The beep happens way before issues, but that's that. I can't say that Tipros are for everyone.

Also, the board is very accessible and cleanly laid out, so it may be possible to add a few capacitors inline on the ground pin right? Should be an easy mod for any of the meta keys and basically up the rollover up a level.

Just checked - there are > 280 different chord+combos in just Org-mode.
If it is not too complicated I may look into performing some mod to add a few levels to the rollover of modifiers key.
After all I really like the Tipros and I want to be able to live inside Emacs to do most tasks.

[Menuhin]

I can't live without key combos (e.g. in Emacs) that involving holding down 2-3 keys down at the same time and then combinations in sequence to trigger commands. In Tipro some of those never worked, plus I got beeped.

If I program combos into single keys that will take time for me to adapt to it - With all those "chords" combined in difference sequences, there will be a lot to memorize (> 30 just for a single extension like Org-mode within Emacs) and the self-defined shortcut keys learned will not be so transferable to all other keyboards.

I will desolder the beeper and try it again and report about how serious is the chording and combos issue again.

I don't know much about programming (my only and short experience with programming was in BASIC some 30 years ago ),
so could you give examples of combos and/or sequences you use, and if possible particularly those causing real trouble,
i.e. not simply beeps, but complete nonfunction due by KRO problems?
I love solving problems

Just plugged in the Tipro 128 - have to find those out in details again.
But basically, as I remember, it was some of the combinations of modifier keys (Ctrl, Meta, Win, Shift) and layer keys (Layer 1 to Layer 4) with another one or two keys, e.g. Ctrl-Meta-F24 when F24 is on another layer but not the base layer.
Also, I want to be able to allocate Layer keys on another Layers but not the base layer, e.g. R_Ctrl of Layer 1 is a Layer 2 key.

[kbdfr]

[…] But basically, as I remember, it was some of the combinations of modifier keys (Ctrl, Meta, Win, Shift) and layer keys (Layer 1 to Layer 4) with another one or two keys, e.g. Ctrl-Meta-F24 when F24 is on another layer but not the base layer.

No problem there.
Translating yours into an example with purely Windows keys (that's the only language I understand):
- I have a key which temporarily (i.e. only as long as it is pressed) toggles to Layer 2 (let's call il Layer Key)
- I have a key programmed with Alt+Shift+Control in the base layer (= layer 1) (let's call it Combo Key)
- I have a key programmed with, say, W in layer 1 and C in layer 2 (let's call it Alpha Key)
When pressing the Combo Key + the Alpha Key, I obtain Alt+Shift+Control+W (which on my system starts Word),
i.e. exactly what is expected.
Now when pressing the Combo Key + the Layer Key + the Alpha Key, I obtain Alt+Shift+Control+C (which on my system starts the calculator), and again it's exactly what is expected: the Layer Key toggles the Alpha Key to layer 2.

Also, I want to be able to allocate Layer keys on another Layers but not the base layer, e.g. R_Ctrl of Layer 1 is a Layer 2 key.

Not sure I understand what you mean.
- You can program your R_Ctrl key to also be R_Ctrl in layer 2. Pressing it will then issue R_Ctrl no matter whether you're just in layer 1 or in layer 2.
- Or do you mean you want your R_Ctrl key to be a "Switch to layer 2" key? This is of course impossible, how should the keyboard know which you want at the moment, R_Ctrl or Switch Layer? You must have either a R_Ctrl key or a Switch Layer key.

Just checked - there are > 280 different chord+combos in just Org-mode.

You don't have to program each of them separately on > 280 different keys.
As described above you can have one key programmed for example with Alt+Shift+Ctrl and then just press the other keys as needed, either each on it own or if necessary here again grouped in combos.
It will certainly be more comfortable than pressing e.g. a three-finger combo with one hand and a two-finger combo with the other hand.

[kbdfr]

[…] I sent you a PM after looking at that thread.[…].

I answered your PM.