Daskeyboard Pro 4 and Matias Tactile Pro with Bouncing Issues
- abrahamstechnology
- Location: United States
- Main keyboard: Laser with SMK Cherry mount
- Main mouse: Mitsumi ECM-S3902
- Favorite switch: Alps and Alps clones
- DT Pro Member: 0212
Just resolder different switches after you are done harvesting. Stop throwing the chassis away.
It's just stupid and selfish for someone to destroy a vintage, out-of production computer component so someone can put the pretty blue things in their hipster board, which in a few months will just be thrown on a shelf with 50 other artisan-filled hipster boards anyway.
It's just stupid and selfish for someone to destroy a vintage, out-of production computer component so someone can put the pretty blue things in their hipster board, which in a few months will just be thrown on a shelf with 50 other artisan-filled hipster boards anyway.
- zrrion
- Location: United States
- Main keyboard: F122
- Main mouse: Microsoft IntelliMouse
- Favorite switch: ALPS SKCC Cream
- DT Pro Member: -
- Contact:
The question is, would anyone buy the board if it didn't have desirable switches? Most of the time the answer is no. If someone would buy it even without the switches, then it feels like a waste to harvest and throw it in a modern kit keyboard.
There's a wider range of case designs, layouts, and even flip out feet designs in vintage boards as compared to newer stuff and I love seeing interesting design decisions and solutions in keyboards but modern kits tend to use the same small set of design choices in every build. I do see where enthusiast kits are generally of a higher build quality than old boards, but that doesn't make them interesting IMO. I really like when people overcome unique design challenges that vintage layouts and ergo boards tend to present. I guess this is more of a kit keyboard < custom keyboard thing though.
There's a wider range of case designs, layouts, and even flip out feet designs in vintage boards as compared to newer stuff and I love seeing interesting design decisions and solutions in keyboards but modern kits tend to use the same small set of design choices in every build. I do see where enthusiast kits are generally of a higher build quality than old boards, but that doesn't make them interesting IMO. I really like when people overcome unique design challenges that vintage layouts and ergo boards tend to present. I guess this is more of a kit keyboard < custom keyboard thing though.
- mike52787
- Alps Aficionado
- Location: South-West Florida
- Main keyboard: G80-5000HAAUS
- Main mouse: Zowie EC1-A
- Favorite switch: Vintage MX Black
- DT Pro Member: 0166
lmfao this thread is killing me
How exactly are modern customs which are made in small numbers(usually less than 100), for enthusiasts, and hand built by enthusiasts in any way generic or "run of the mill"?
On the other hand you have a shitty at101w or apple extended keyboard. How many hundreds of thousands of those were produced? What exactly is special about them? They sat on everyone's desk back in the early to mid nineties. putting new switches or caps on those is like putting lipstick on a pig. There is still nothing inherently interesting or good about them, they are just boring old keyboards.
How exactly are modern customs which are made in small numbers(usually less than 100), for enthusiasts, and hand built by enthusiasts in any way generic or "run of the mill"?
On the other hand you have a shitty at101w or apple extended keyboard. How many hundreds of thousands of those were produced? What exactly is special about them? They sat on everyone's desk back in the early to mid nineties. putting new switches or caps on those is like putting lipstick on a pig. There is still nothing inherently interesting or good about them, they are just boring old keyboards.
Do you have any idea how difficult it is to give most of this stuff away? Even just for the price of shipping noone will take most vintage chassis. Even if they do, it's simply not worth the time and effort of packing them up and shipping them off when the garbage can is right there waiting. It's not like there aren't hundreds of thousands of others just like it sitting in dusty old closets or ewaste warehouses.
- Myoth
- Location: Strasbourg
- Main keyboard: IDB60
- Main mouse: EC1-A
- Favorite switch: Cap BS
- DT Pro Member: -
I should have said this earlier but when I mentioned modern boards, I didn't think about those premade shits, I was talking about the aluminium customs. Those are pretty much always good keyboard wise. And they're certainly not worse than vintage stuff considering they're all metal and that you could "survive in a zombie apocalypse" or something like that.
you definitely have too much time on your hands, I don't know anyone who'd put up for sale chassies, it's too much hassle for nothing since noone would buy them apart from you, that's saying something ....abrahamstechnology wrote: ↑28 Jan 2019, 16:46Just resolder different switches after you are done harvesting. Stop throwing the chassis away.
It's just stupid and selfish for someone to destroy a vintage, out-of production computer component so someone can put the pretty blue things in their hipster board, which in a few months will just be thrown on a shelf with 50 other artisan-filled hipster boards anyway.
And they're not hipster boards. Again, bring your Model M anywhere, and I'll bring a LZ-CLS or whatever, and we'll see which one will be seen as hipster, the 30 year old, more or less obsolete keyboard, or just a rugged keyboard made out of metal ?
- abrahamstechnology
- Location: United States
- Main keyboard: Laser with SMK Cherry mount
- Main mouse: Mitsumi ECM-S3902
- Favorite switch: Alps and Alps clones
- DT Pro Member: 0212
- abrahamstechnology
- Location: United States
- Main keyboard: Laser with SMK Cherry mount
- Main mouse: Mitsumi ECM-S3902
- Favorite switch: Alps and Alps clones
- DT Pro Member: 0212
- Myoth
- Location: Strasbourg
- Main keyboard: IDB60
- Main mouse: EC1-A
- Favorite switch: Cap BS
- DT Pro Member: -
so that's your whole response ? are you trying to debate or just jerk yourself off ?
- Chyros
- Location: The Netherlands
- Main keyboard: whatever I'm reviewing next :p
- Main mouse: a cheap Logitech
- Favorite switch: Alps SKCM Blue
- DT Pro Member: -
NiceChyros wrote: ↑28 Jan 2019, 18:28Dunno mate, most of those are still MX afaik :p .
- Myoth
- Location: Strasbourg
- Main keyboard: IDB60
- Main mouse: EC1-A
- Favorite switch: Cap BS
- DT Pro Member: -
rofl, well, there is a reason why people use them, I truly wonder what could it be ...Chyros wrote: ↑28 Jan 2019, 18:28Dunno mate, most of those are still MX afaik :p .
hmm you may think even DT would have a different opinion about MX but they've won the DTA for the best keyswitch multiple times (unlike beamspring, or even any Alps SKCM/L switch ) ... really makes you think huh ?
- Chyros
- Location: The Netherlands
- Main keyboard: whatever I'm reviewing next :p
- Main mouse: a cheap Logitech
- Favorite switch: Alps SKCM Blue
- DT Pro Member: -
You mean that sarcastically, right? :pMyoth wrote: ↑28 Jan 2019, 18:41rofl, well, there is a reason why people use them, I truly wonder what could it be ...
hmm you may think even DT would have a different opinion about MX but they've won the DTA for the best keyswitch multiple times (unlike beamspring, or even any Alps SKCM/L switch ) ... really makes you think huh ?
- Myoth
- Location: Strasbourg
- Main keyboard: IDB60
- Main mouse: EC1-A
- Favorite switch: Cap BS
- DT Pro Member: -
not at all.Chyros wrote: ↑28 Jan 2019, 19:17You mean that sarcastically, right? :pMyoth wrote: ↑28 Jan 2019, 18:41rofl, well, there is a reason why people use them, I truly wonder what could it be ...
hmm you may think even DT would have a different opinion about MX but they've won the DTA for the best keyswitch multiple times (unlike beamspring, or even any Alps SKCM/L switch ) ... really makes you think huh ?
- Chyros
- Location: The Netherlands
- Main keyboard: whatever I'm reviewing next :p
- Main mouse: a cheap Logitech
- Favorite switch: Alps SKCM Blue
- DT Pro Member: -
The answer seems so straightforward. The polls you mention are a measure of quantity, not quality. And as you pointed out, these competing technologies are 30 years old, and haven't been shelf-available for decades. Conversely, Cherry MX is the only competitor left. It should be obvious why Cherry managed to garner so much support if the alternatives are so obscure and hard to obtain.Myoth wrote: ↑28 Jan 2019, 19:43not at all.Chyros wrote: ↑28 Jan 2019, 19:17You mean that sarcastically, right? :pMyoth wrote: ↑28 Jan 2019, 18:41
rofl, well, there is a reason why people use them, I truly wonder what could it be ...
hmm you may think even DT would have a different opinion about MX but they've won the DTA for the best keyswitch multiple times (unlike beamspring, or even any Alps SKCM/L switch ) ... really makes you think huh ?
If you need proof; just look back to the mid-to-late 80s, when Cherry wasn't the only piece on the board. They drew comparatively very little attention back then. Reading review articles of the time, they barely even attracted a mention.
- Inxie
- Location: United States
- Main keyboard: IBM Model F XT
- Main mouse: Lenovo Legion M500
- Favorite switch: Buckling Spring
- DT Pro Member: -
Funny fact, my 1994 Chevy's window switches are Cherry, and they are absolutely atrocious, constantly failing in one way or another. I don't know what kind of technology they use, but they do click just like a keyboard switch, in the oddest of housings I have ever seen. (Also far more tactile and harder to press, since they connect to a rocking piece of plastic which acts as the switch you see in the door).
- abrahamstechnology
- Location: United States
- Main keyboard: Laser with SMK Cherry mount
- Main mouse: Mitsumi ECM-S3902
- Favorite switch: Alps and Alps clones
- DT Pro Member: 0212
Yes, that is my response. There are endless ways to modernize and/or refit older boards.Myoth wrote: ↑28 Jan 2019, 18:19so that's your whole response ? are you trying to debate or just jerk yourself off ?
- Myoth
- Location: Strasbourg
- Main keyboard: IDB60
- Main mouse: EC1-A
- Favorite switch: Cap BS
- DT Pro Member: -
Quality ? Quality of what ?Chyros wrote: ↑28 Jan 2019, 21:11The answer seems so straightforward. The polls you mention are a measure of quantity, not quality. And as you pointed out, these competing technologies are 30 years old, and haven't been shelf-available for decades. Conversely, Cherry MX is the only competitor left.
Quality of opinion ? Some people have a better opinion than others? I guess so if they've not tried other switches but if not, then we're equal.
Or quality of the switches ? then MX beats SKCM/L' s quality/durability any day of the week, just mention dirt to an Alps enthusiast and he'll get defensive (me first, Alps is life). Whereas pickup any MX keyboard and it'll likely still work perfectly fine.
- Myoth
- Location: Strasbourg
- Main keyboard: IDB60
- Main mouse: EC1-A
- Favorite switch: Cap BS
- DT Pro Member: -
That wasn't my point.abrahamstechnology wrote: ↑28 Jan 2019, 22:59Yes, that is my response. There are endless ways to modernize and/or refit older boards.
- Myoth
- Location: Strasbourg
- Main keyboard: IDB60
- Main mouse: EC1-A
- Favorite switch: Cap BS
- DT Pro Member: -
Also, articles from where ? I'm sure they were talked about in Europe considering how common Cherry keyboards are.
Saying Omnikeys weren't very present in the German reviews of keyboards doesn't mean they're bad
- //gainsborough
- ALPSの日常
- Location: United States
- Main keyboard: some kind of alps keyboard
- Favorite switch: clk: SKCM blue, lin: SKCL cream, tac: SKCM cream
- DT Pro Member: 0188
Just now reading through this amazing thread - how did this slip by without anyone saying anything?? Hahahahaha. There are literally blue alps boards on eBay right now. I even sold a blue alps board today. Put a [WTB] post up for blue alps, I guarantee you'll get multiple PMs.abrahamstechnology wrote: ↑27 Jan 2019, 23:40I only got here a year ago and already there are no more Blue Alps and SKBM Whites will be depleted by next year.
The well will certainly dry up at some point, but I think we are still a ways off from that point.
- Chyros
- Location: The Netherlands
- Main keyboard: whatever I'm reviewing next :p
- Main mouse: a cheap Logitech
- Favorite switch: Alps SKCM Blue
- DT Pro Member: -
It's true, vulnerability to dirt and dust is surely one of Alps' biggest weaknesses. I never said they were without weakness. That exact point is why I listed them at #3 rather than #1 of my list of best clicky switches, in fact. Besides, if there's one person out there who's been hammering for years on the importance of getting clean Alps boards, surely it's me.Myoth wrote: ↑29 Jan 2019, 08:22Quality ? Quality of what ?Chyros wrote: ↑28 Jan 2019, 21:11The answer seems so straightforward. The polls you mention are a measure of quantity, not quality. And as you pointed out, these competing technologies are 30 years old, and haven't been shelf-available for decades. Conversely, Cherry MX is the only competitor left.
Quality of opinion ? Some people have a better opinion than others? I guess so if they've not tried other switches but if not, then we're equal.
Or quality of the switches ? then MX beats SKCM/L' s quality/durability any day of the week, just mention dirt to an Alps enthusiast and he'll get defensive (me first, Alps is life). Whereas pickup any MX keyboard and it'll likely still work perfectly fine.
Of course, I also wasn't talking about Alps in particular, but I guess it's easier for you to pick on Alps than on for example CBS, or so many of the other switches I consider superior to MX (some of which are much more durable than MX yet).
That said, durability is only one facet of switch quality, of course. And yet, I'd rather use a 1-year keyboard with blue Alps than a 20-year keyboard with MX blue, for example. Of course, it would be better if they were virtually indestructible, but it's not the only thing I'd look at. And neither would any Cherry MX fan, seeing how much more long-lived some other switch designs are.
- Myoth
- Location: Strasbourg
- Main keyboard: IDB60
- Main mouse: EC1-A
- Favorite switch: Cap BS
- DT Pro Member: -
Or maybe I picked on Alps because it was the topic of the OP ?
That probably depends on where you look at. In the mid 80s Cherry was already the main keyboard manufacturer for a lot of European computer manufacturers. And at least in 1988 with the introduction of the G80-1000 they become dominant on the market. If you can trust the serial numbers they must have sold over 50.000 G81-3000 boards each year, at least 60.000 boards were produced for highscreen until 1992 and the numbers for German G80-1000 boards should be similar (according to serial numbers 100.000 German ones in 1988 and 1989). Maybe you don't find a lot of reviews cause their main market was in Germany but at least there they drew a lot of attention.
- Chyros
- Location: The Netherlands
- Main keyboard: whatever I'm reviewing next :p
- Main mouse: a cheap Logitech
- Favorite switch: Alps SKCM Blue
- DT Pro Member: -
Yes, in Germany they were pretty big, although there as well they faced competition from other German manufacturers.hansichen wrote: ↑29 Jan 2019, 09:31That probably depends on where you look at. In the mid 80s Cherry was already the main keyboard manufacturer for a lot of European computer manufacturers. And at least in 1988 with the introduction of the G80-1000 they become dominant on the market. If you can trust the serial numbers they must have sold over 50.000 G81-3000 boards each year, at least 60.000 boards were produced for highscreen until 1992 and the numbers for German G80-1000 boards should be similar (according to serial numbers 100.000 German ones in 1988 and 1989). Maybe you don't find a lot of reviews cause their main market was in Germany but at least there they drew a lot of attention.
That said, 50k a year seems like a VERY low amount. Key Tronic, IBM, Alps, NMB, Silitek, Chicony and Fujitsu-Siemens produced millions of keyboards, and I'm pretty sure even Honeywell, Focus, Futaba, and Maxi Switch made a lot more than that. Also, I'm pretty sure Cherry was never the biggest keyboard manufacturer in the world (for decades it was Key Tronic, nowadays I'm not sure but I think it might be Lite-On).
50.000 per year is for one keyboard, based on these numbers they probably sold over 150.000 keyboards on the German market (not counting any POS stuff, but I think that mainly came up in the 90s) in the late 80s/early 90s. That's not too bad if you consider that you only have ~90 Million potential customers. So from 1988 to 1994 1 out of 10 German speaking persons bought a cherry keyboard
Also the mid/late 80s should be the era of all the wyse keyboards which also used Cherry switches. But afaik these are all terminal keyboards so I doubt you'll find reviews on those.
Also the mid/late 80s should be the era of all the wyse keyboards which also used Cherry switches. But afaik these are all terminal keyboards so I doubt you'll find reviews on those.
- swampangel
- Location: Canada
- Main keyboard: Northgate Omnikey 101
- DT Pro Member: -
I think that's exactly the point. It's like how "best restaurant" polls in a college town will be dominated by what's in staggering distance of the dorms. Doesn't mean it's a bad place to eat, just that a lot of the voters have a limited perspective.